The latest Avalon announcement in China(Translated). Batch #3, price and more.

[vvic]

OMG! So much drama here
Those who depressed about batch 3 prices, feel free to bid on batch#2 here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-Miner-65-Gh-s-speed-guaranteed-PRE-ORDER-/140938300499 (STILL CHEAP!)
or here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-mining-Rig-pre-order-/190814179747  Look! Batch#2 preorder for the price of batch#3!
or here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-BTC-Mining-Computer-Rig-Miner-Unit-Pre-Order-/140937986794
Oh yeah, especially for BFL fans/customers
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-60-GH-s-Bitcoin-Miner-BitForce-Single-SC-ASIC-Butterfly-Labs-Avalon-/230949834281 (not sure why it says avalon still. That is an insult!)
So I'm expecting BFL raise their prices too sometime. People will buy these things anyway
and of course, those who believe that avalons won't sell at $5-7K should look at this famous link again
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-BTC-Mining-Computer-Rig-Miner-Unit-Pre-Order-/181105056846
yes, this might be a fake, maybe shadow bidding and such. But the thing is, you have to pay fees on ebay, a certain % from your final sale. So, if this is a fake sale, that seller still has to pay ebay fee.
Now, let's say I have batch#1 avalon. And I'm thinking about selling it. (Too loud, too hot in the room, wife won't let me keep it, kids etc. It is hypothetical, I have no wife, no kids and no avalon) But let's pretend I do have one avalon. How much does it worth to you? You could have it right now (10 days the latest depending on shipping for example) how much would you be willing to pay for shit unit? $10,000? $20,000? And why?

[1714079431]

1714079431

[1714079431]

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[they]

I find it interesting to watch the reactions of many folks who claim to want a free market with a deflationary currency who are complaining about the effects of a free market with a deflationary currency on themselves.

Perhaps some perspective is in order (everyone take a deep breath!)

The first question to ask yourself is: "Where will the price of one bitcoin be when I cash out?" Cashing out, for me personally means when I leave my paper wallet to my heirs, as any brain wallets dissapear.

Will my actions beforehand have strengthened the bitcoin economy to the point where they will benefit from my actions and choices? If I then lose a few bitcoin to ensure the long-term survival of the network, am I not, in fact, leaving my heirs richer?

I think we all can find clarity in viewing our choices in a historical perspective at times.

Would I love to have my unit arrive tomorrow? Sure, but if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it as a-hoppin'. In the meantime, I will watch my GPU miners scale back, and rejoice in the fact that the distribution of ASIC -- from Avalon, BFL, ASICMiner, or wherever -- all prevent any single government from changing this currency into anything other than what the miners agree to.

Again, it is a deflationary currency. Every purchase will feel more like a loss than any purchase with an inflationary fiat currency. Yet each purchase strengthens the bitcoin economy. This is a fact that each of us will have to learn to live with on our own terms.

I, for one, will look back at my life and say "I am satisfied with my choices, for sometimes luck was with me."

I hope the same for each of you.

[yxt]

WTF stop that drama!

Complaining is silly. Either act or forget.

[loshia]

WTF stop that drama!

Complaining is silly. Either act or forget.

+1

[tosku]

The price hike from Avalon makes absolute sense. They really have one goal: To sell their hardware for as much as is possible.

You wouldn't do the same in their position?

I mean even at 5-6k you'll still pay for the unit eventually as long as it doesn't break (I haven't really read about warranties on these things)

I said it makes sense. I think we are in agreement, but maybe you misread what I wrote?

Anyway, were I the owner of the Avalon company, I'd do something similar. Maybe use some kind of scheme with variable pricing and rebates to segment the market further, and also make smaller, less expensive units. Not to be nice to my customers, but to cram every last cent out of the ASIC mining market.

What's the per-unit cost, to Avalon? $200 per unit + $100 for shipping? I realize they also have a big investment to recoup, but let's forget about that one right now.

[Nexus2k]

what a pitty.... missed batch #2 because I was unable to get my money converted to BTC fast enough and now when I did read about batch #3 on monday I went on and bought BTC but only calculated with 1599$ like it was for batch #2 -.-

I completly understand the position of Avalon team, but the risk for the customers is a bit too high for me now. (But I'm looking for joint ventures if anyone is interested...)

As I mentioned in neighboring threads, I'm willing to pool on this with someone to share the risks, PM me if interested.

The guy registered today and has offered twice already to partner with buying or housing avalon units. It's 99.9% a scammer. I've said it.

If he pays for the unit its kinda hard to get scammed.

As stated I'm willing to pay with all my current BTC available (which would cover about 30% of the price)... I really don't have the time to pull off scams. Feel free to google my nick for possible scams on other forums...

[Jrock]

The price hike from Avalon makes absolute sense. They really have one goal: To sell their hardware for as much as is possible.

You wouldn't do the same in their position?

I mean even at 5-6k you'll still pay for the unit eventually as long as it doesn't break (I haven't really read about warranties on these things)

I said it makes sense. I think we are in agreement, but maybe you misread what I wrote?

Anyway, were I the owner of the Avalon company, I'd do something similar. Maybe use some kind of scheme with variable pricing and rebates to segment the market further, and also make smaller, less expensive units. Not to be nice to my customers, but to cram every last cent out of the ASIC mining market.

What's the per-unit cost, to Avalon? $200 per unit + $100 for shipping? I realize they also have a big investment to recoup, but let's forget about that one right now.

Ya that's my bad somehow I read the opposite, I'm drinking so it explains a lot.

[muyuu]

You are now asking customers to take on a substantially larger risk than before at a much lower Roi.
I thought  I read somewhere  a few months ago that the idea behind avalon was not about making money but an attempt get get more people into bitcoin and helping secure the network.  This move served to the exact opposite effect.  You are putting the units in to the hands of a select few allowing them more hashing power and turning your back on people like me who are new to bitcoin.

That was Social Engineering.

At that point it wasn't clear that they could sell them. Now they are in a position of power and their true colours appear. I personally have no problem with that.

The only problem I have with this, is that it does endanger BTC somewhat. This price hike will create volatility in the valuation too.

Also, trust that they won't dedicate their own machines to mining is lowering.

All in all, I'm a bit concerned about the radical nature in the hike and from the fact that they continue pre-selling despite not having sent all the units from previous batches. Now that they have production going it seems like there is little excuse for such practice. A few too many reasons to be concerned, to be honest.

I'd rather see them auction a few units to be honest (and to ship immediately, of course).

[Jrock]

OMG! So much drama here
Those who depressed about batch 3 prices, feel free to bid on batch#2 here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-Miner-65-Gh-s-speed-guaranteed-PRE-ORDER-/140938300499 (STILL CHEAP!)
or here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-mining-Rig-pre-order-/190814179747  Look! Batch#2 preorder for the price of batch#3!
or here
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-BTC-Mining-Computer-Rig-Miner-Unit-Pre-Order-/140937986794
Oh yeah, especially for BFL fans/customers
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-x-60-GH-s-Bitcoin-Miner-BitForce-Single-SC-ASIC-Butterfly-Labs-Avalon-/230949834281 (not sure why it says avalon still. That is an insult!)
So I'm expecting BFL raise their prices too sometime. People will buy these things anyway
and of course, those who believe that avalons won't sell at $5-7K should look at this famous link again
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Avalon-ASIC-Bitcoin-BTC-Mining-Computer-Rig-Miner-Unit-Pre-Order-/181105056846
yes, this might be a fake, maybe shadow bidding and such. But the thing is, you have to pay fees on ebay, a certain % from your final sale. So, if this is a fake sale, that seller still has to pay ebay fee.
Now, let's say I have batch#1 avalon. And I'm thinking about selling it. (Too loud, too hot in the room, wife won't let me keep it, kids etc. It is hypothetical, I have no wife, no kids and no avalon) But let's pretend I do have one avalon. How much does it worth to you? You could have it right now (10 days the latest depending on shipping for example) how much would you be willing to pay for shit unit? $10,000? $20,000? And why?

First off, I can almost guarantee that sale is fake considering I put a fake $14,000 bid on it when it was like $4000 and it was outbid in like 15 seconds to 14600 when it still had 24 hours left. A logical ebayer doesn't jack the price wayyyyyyyyyyy up when there's that much time left, they wait towards the end. I then put another fake bid of 17 grand in just to see if he'd top it and viola it was 20 g's on close. Not to mention it was a private listing so you can't see bidders names (just shouts price padding).

Anyways fake or not the seller doesn't pay an ebay fee if he isn't paid. It's a very simple process to get out of.

If someone actually pays a 0 rep ebay user 20 grand with a big 3 lines of dialogue and no screenshot of his order page in the listing I'd be super impressed of how greedy people are.

[Dalkore]

I really wish the BTC to crash hard just after Avalon starts taking order. We shall see what happens to their BTC 88 - 115 payment plan. Greedy bastards.

How are they any more greedy than miners?  Based on this thread, miners themselves have no confidence in BTC and view it only as a means to earn USD.  

Bwahahaha, this the exact reason why I don't respect some of my potential customers, I don't even want money from these people. In afterthought, raising the price it must stopped a lot people were purchasing because how brainless the profit was, now there is some math and faith involved.

I assume that was the feeling.   Many are finding out what happens when you deal with a principled business person.   I was "really?" at first, but then after thinking about it, it didn't seem bad.   With a ROI of 6-12 months, you know they will keep the gear on the network for that time, keeps it just the much more secure.   Hope people are looking at other motives than just profits.

You are mentally retarded, you know this, right?

Actually I am quite sane.  Maybe you should take some more time and think about this.   

[Dalkore]

WTF stop that drama!

Complaining is silly. Either act or forget.

+1

+1  (but don't trust me, today I was informed I am mentally retarded)

[Vicus]

Honestly, I'm thinking that Avalon team is specially delayed shipment because of BFL. They gave BFL some time to start shipment in order to not give over-porfit for miners. Do you remember words of Yifu? He stated that he has joined ASIC dev to make another competitor in Bitcoin world and there will be no chance that one company will rule the ASIC (Bitcoin) world. But unexpected circumstances made from Avalon that monster... And I think that role is not what Yifu want. In order to give BFL another chance Avalon team is deciding to raise a price. Not a secret, that BFL could lose many customers if Avalon open batch #3 at the same price. People will just cancel they orders at BFL and make an order at Avalon. To make this decision much harder, price was raised, and another delay was presented...

[loshia]

WTF stop that drama!

Complaining is silly. Either act or forget.

+1

+1  (but don't trust me, today I was informed I am mentally retarded)

Dude,

We have to respect everybody and their own decisions and thoughts. Avalon deserves our respect and we deserve theirs also. From now own (and always) they are free to chose how they are going to move forward with their pricing and product development and we are the ones to choose if we are buying or not. Simple as that. Time will tell who made right decisions only. Complaining, trolling is just useless. Some of us are here because of the technology, some for profit some for both.

As NG said all is about the trust and it can not be measured with money. I completely agree on that 100%.  But unfortunately we live in a world where money matters. And when the bill needs to be paid we do think about that. I am not complaining about the price at all i have my own decision but i can understand the folks that think about it and measure their investment money wise. For instance in my country for the avalon price batch 3 you need to work 5-6 days a week 10-12 hours a day for year to be able to earn 5-6 grand or to buy 88 BTC at the moment. And that means a lot of work for sure.

[loshia]

Honestly, I'm thinking that Avalon team is specially delayed shipment because of BFL. They gave BFL some time to start shipment in order to not give over-porfit for miners. Do you remember words of Yifu? He stated that he has joined ASIC dev to make another competitor in Bitcoin world and there will be no chance that one company will rule the ASIC (Bitcoin) world. But unexpected circumstances made from Avalon that monster... And I think that role is not what Yifu want. In order to give BFL another chance Avalon team is deciding to raise a price. Not a secret, that BFL could lose many customers if Avalon open batch #3 at the same price. People will just cancel they orders at BFL and make an order at Avalon. To make this decision much harder, price was raised, and another delay was presented...

Dude,
BFL will not deliver anything in coming mounts. And the BFL customers can not cancel their orders.

[Vicus]

Dude,
BFL will not deliver anything in coming mounts. And the BFL customers can not cancel their orders.

Its pure speculation You and me don't know the exact situation
What about orders, why can't? I haven't read any messages, where anyone stated that he was rejected with refund?

[vdragon]

Since they have no real competition, they can... I personaly think that 90 btc is insane for something you will get in about 3 months, and  it will never see ROI. And they were on my good side so far....

[loshia]

Dude,
BFL will not deliver anything in coming mounts. And the BFL customers can not cancel their orders.

Its pure speculation You and me don't know the exact situation
What about orders, why can't? I haven't read any messages, where anyone stated that he was rejected with refund?

I am not arguing with you...
Just follow my posts (start from last year ) if you want and you will see what i think about BFL and for how long i think so
The only reason they will not deliver nothing anytime soon is because they do not have their NG team member simple as that For that exact same reason BASIC failed also

[muyuu]

Since they have no real competition, they can... I personaly think that 90 btc is insane for something you will get in about 3 months, and  it will never see ROI. And they were on my good side so far....

They may or may not pay for themselves but it's looking unlikely to me at this point.

Seems like simply buying BTC could beat that sort of investment if you are buying right now.

[DrG]

If ASICMiner is able to put out 100TH by the time Batch #3 is out and BTC price stays at $65 or higher then you can be sure difficulty will be high enough to put ROI into a questionable zone.  Batch 1 and 2 were no-brainers for ROI, just a matter of trust as NG said.

When ROI exceeds a period of 6 months, you have to worry about other forces like changes to Bitcoin protocol and the longevity of your unit.  Pretty much all Batch 1 users will have their units paid off in a couple weeks.  Batch 2 might take a month to 2 (in BTC, not $).  Batch 3 ASICMiner and BFL are the big IFs.

$6500 would buy 100 BTC now which might be $100 in 3 months. That $10K could be used for setting up a BTC business that may make more $ than any miner ever could...

[MPOE-PR]

At BTC, you'll pay for it in about a month.  That's their point - that it's unreasonable to expect units to be priced at a point where they'll pay for themselves in days.  They're leaving themselves plenty of room to adjust the price downwards as difficulty changes and more TH hit the network.  There's only going to be a short time when expecting a unit to pay for itself within a couple of months is reasonable.  As more ASICs hit the network, the break even point will blow out.  When it blows out to a point where sales drop off, vendors will likely drop their prices to keep it at an "acceptable" time-frame.

The point that the vendor conveniently eschews is that it was not his capital that paid for this development. Sorta like skepsidyne rehashed, or in other words never trust a Bitcoin miner. (That link is instructive of the entire "capital doesn't matter" attitude of miner folk, by the way).

In practical terms, the hash rate is ~50 Gh currently, even if units were delivered normally you'd be paying 100 BTC for 0.1% of current hash output, which means you'd be even in roughly a month if hash output stays put and your electricity is free. That sort of deal isn't interesting at all, let the very "ethical" ngzhang run his own rigs to his heart's content.

Which brings to the fore the following issue: two Chinese brothers were born the same day. One, AbelMiner, came to the community, took 20k BTC worth of equity which was called equity, built miners, faced all sorts of challenges, troubles and problems but eventually got about 6 Gh online. The other, Caivalon, came to the community, took 20k BTC worth of equity which was called "pre-orders", built miners, faced all sorts of challenges, troubles and problems but eventually delivered about 6 Gh worth of units to shareholders and then walked away from the deal under the guise of a broken pricing model.

Granted, this isn't quite as much of a scam as BFL. It's more of a scam than Asicminer (at least so far) and I would say on the scale these things are normally judged it counts as a scam. That the sheeple aren't quite immediately aware this is the case...well...this is how Bitcoin mining "ventures" go, isn't it? Gigavps launched bonds, paid 3-40 cents to the coin to date (but you can dilute that if you wish to "upgrade", of course); hashking launched "investments", paid 30 cents or less; amazingrando idem, this is the story since day one.

Eventually the sort of people that go for these sorts of deals will run out of Bitcoin. Sometime in 2050 or whatever.