[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[auto2nr1]

Glad to see you guys made up now. Let's all move forward and start fighting for the same side. We are all here to make money and to hopefully get AMC back on track and get our questions and concerns taken care of. This will help strengthen the AMC business plan therefore making the future optimistic for this venture. I just got a PM a while ago asking for a list of questions i had and that person will start compiling it for the trip. Go ahead and put your questions up here and changes you would like to be made so Ken can address those that are going to be stopping by to pay him a visit. Hopefully within the next 1-2 weeks we can get all this squared away.

Who PM'd you?

Hey, would you mind PM'ing me a list of questions that you would like asked and answered?  I'm hoping that both I and a friend of mine, who is also a shareholder, will be making a trip to Springfield maybe next weekend.  Hopefully, having a one-on-one conversation with Ken will help draw him out of his shell and he'll be more open to answering the tougher questions that he seems to either be avoiding, or he's simply not ready to answer at this time.  Thanks!

SG

I guess we can have SoylentCreek be a representative with one of his friends. Both of them are invested in AMC so i am sure they also share the same concerns that i do. Thanks.

[1715404785]

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[1715404785]

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[Diamondstarfall]

Good I really want to see this unfold

It's getting exciting isn't it, this could actually be the narrative of a second rate HBO movie.

Haha so true

[lolstate]

Glad to see you guys made up now. Let's all move forward and start fighting for the same side. We are all here to make money and to hopefully get AMC back on track and get our questions and concerns taken care of. This will help strengthen the AMC business plan therefore making the future optimistic for this venture. I just got a PM a while ago asking for a list of questions i had and that person will start compiling it for the trip. Go ahead and put your questions up here and changes you would like to be made so Ken can address those that are going to be stopping by to pay him a visit. Hopefully within the next 1-2 weeks we can get all this squared away.

Who PM'd you?

Hey, would you mind PM'ing me a list of questions that you would like asked and answered?  I'm hoping that both I and a friend of mine, who is also a shareholder, will be making a trip to Springfield maybe next weekend.  Hopefully, having a one-on-one conversation with Ken will help draw him out of his shell and he'll be more open to answering the tougher questions that he seems to either be avoiding, or he's simply not ready to answer at this time.  Thanks!

SG

I guess we can have SoylentCreek be a representative with one of his friends. Both of them are invested in AMC so i am sure they also share the same concerns that i do. Thanks.

Ok, that is great. I was afraid it was steveioio pm-spamming you, so glad it isn't.

[kslaughter]

This is the satellite image of the address that Ken used for VMC's "Principal place of business" as stated in the NDA picture he posted today:

Ok?

I found it kind of weird that its just his house, seeing as how he says theres an office somewhere.

The NDA was signed over a month ago on May 17th.  We just rented the office/manufacturing site on June 5, 2013.  You have to understand that we
are moving forward with our plan and that things are changing on a daily basis.

[kslaughter]

Posted on the 10th June 2013:

Sure, I would be happy to meet with you at our NEW manufacturing site, which is 450 H S Union, Springfield Missouri, 65802.  Just let me know when you are going to be here.  Thanks for pointing out the typo on our site, I will get that fixed.  However, you get a trademark by using it.  It only needs to be registered if you are going to sue someone.  I see you did not mention axs.net which I own and has been registered since 1997 along with name-servers.net.  Our prototype boards are being spun up as we speak, should be here within a week, Avalon sample chips have been shipped to us for these boards.  Anything else?  

Sorry Vbs I don't know what you are getting at.
Does this answer it? - We have known Ken owned axs for some time - he declared his 'previous business experience' on his run down but it's the home address I uncovered last night that I don't think has been on here before.

I don't know if my address has been on here before, but I posted my complete address, including my cell phone number with the Avalon Orders on Bitfunder back in March.  However, a scammers got my order number and tried to sell my Avalon's on eBay, so I had to redact the address.  I was trying to be as transparent as I could back in March. 

[stslimited]

Posted on the 10th June 2013:

Sure, I would be happy to meet with you at our NEW manufacturing site, which is 450 H S Union, Springfield Missouri, 65802.  Just let me know when you are going to be here.  Thanks for pointing out the typo on our site, I will get that fixed.  However, you get a trademark by using it.  It only needs to be registered if you are going to sue someone.  I see you did not mention axs.net which I own and has been registered since 1997 along with name-servers.net.  Our prototype boards are being spun up as we speak, should be here within a week, Avalon sample chips have been shipped to us for these boards.  Anything else?  

Sorry Vbs I don't know what you are getting at.
Does this answer it? - We have known Ken owned axs for some time - he declared his 'previous business experience' on his run down but it's the home address I uncovered last night that I don't think has been on here before.

I don't know if my address has been on here before, but I posted my complete address, including my cell phone number with the Avalon Orders on Bitfunder back in March.  However, a scammers got my order number and tried to sell my Avalon's on eBay, so I had to redact the address.  I was trying to be as transparent as I could back in March. 

the barriers of legitimacy of completely arbitrary on this site, don't worry

[lolstate]

Posted on the 10th June 2013:

Sure, I would be happy to meet with you at our NEW manufacturing site, which is 450 H S Union, Springfield Missouri, 65802.  Just let me know when you are going to be here.  Thanks for pointing out the typo on our site, I will get that fixed.  However, you get a trademark by using it.  It only needs to be registered if you are going to sue someone.  I see you did not mention axs.net which I own and has been registered since 1997 along with name-servers.net.  Our prototype boards are being spun up as we speak, should be here within a week, Avalon sample chips have been shipped to us for these boards.  Anything else?  

Sorry Vbs I don't know what you are getting at.
Does this answer it? - We have known Ken owned axs for some time - he declared his 'previous business experience' on his run down but it's the home address I uncovered last night that I don't think has been on here before.

I don't know if my address has been on here before, but I posted my complete address, including my cell phone number with the Avalon Orders on Bitfunder back in March.  However, a scammers got my order number and tried to sell my Avalon's on eBay, so I had to redact the address.  I was trying to be as transparent as I could back in March.  

the barriers of legitimacy of completely arbitrary on this site, don't worry

The barriers to entry on this site, bitcointalk.org, are null.

The barriers to entry on btct.co and BitFunder.com are actually pretty interesting. Will you argue otherwise? Spill the beans...

[lolstate]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Once you have more of a complete operation in place I would also very much appreciate a visit. I know I have been especially tough on the corporate structure, pricing and revenue goals but when the smoke settles if you would allow me I would be happy to swing by and say hi.

Sure, that would be fine.

I am cool with whatever you guys decide, and I would definitely appreciate help with the gas.  Although I'm not worried about not being reimbursed.  I am willing to do it at my own expense if I have to because I think it would be a good service to the overall bitcoin community.  Regardless of what happens, I think it would be an interesting trip with a chance to meet some interesting people, and I find all of this much more entertaining than any tv show or movie ever could be.  I am free any weekend.

Thank you babefoot! PM me your estimate for the gas bill before the trip and I'll forward the BTC to cover the cost.

[TheSwede75]

I see the "Game of ASIC" mini series is alive and well

[Diamondstarfall]

I see the "Game of ASIC" mini series is alive and well

The asic's are coming.

[TheSwede75]

Until at least May 2014, on the initial 40M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 20M can be sold to investors.
In May 2014, or when 0.0005 is payed by share, whichever happens later, an extra 60M are created, for the final total of 100M. On these remaining 60M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 40M can be sold to investors, with a 40M being retained by AMC/Ken.

Right, but *why* 100 million shares? This is a ridiculous number of shares compared to other securities (I mean, ASICminer has 40000 shares, a whole order of magnitude lower). This will just dilute existing shares, make it more difficult to sell shares (because there's always the possibility of flooding the market), and make a high valuation for the company so much harder to justify.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying time scale as capital is required to complete the project. Any remaining shares not included in the IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

Why not IPO all the shares at the same time, right at the beginning, but less of them?

Additionally, right now, how many shares have been issued, how many have been sold, and how many are held in reserve? Those shares which have not been issued aren't receiving dividends, are they? This goes on to my next point.

Dividends paid on unissued shares after the early-adopter phase will be retained by AMC and added to AMC's growth and expansion fund above until the shares are issued.

So basically, you're diluting the dividends across both issued and unissued shares? First, from my limited reading, unissued/unsold shares don't receive a dividend, so it seems that proper accounting/shareholder practices are not being followed (Right now, 40 million shares have been issued, but have 40 million been sold, and thus eligible for dividends? And then when you issue another 60 million, you'll be diluting the dividend even more so. To even get close to the kinds of dividends other companies are seeing (0.01 btc/share), you'd have to mine something like 40,000 bitcoins per week, even more when it's 100 million shares.

The first time I get a piece of the pie will be after a year of work (May 2014), when the rest of the 60M are issued. At that time, more 20M can be sold to investors, and I retain the remaining 40M.

Again, what's the rationale for this? Why are you not making money on the shares now? Additionally, when you issue those 60 million shares, other investors are going to be screwed because the dividend will be split across 100 million, not 40 million.

Engineering Firm quote for Avalon machines: http://axs.net/AMC/SB-Prototype-Quote.jpg
eASIC NDA: http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0001.jpg and http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0002.jpg

As nice as these are, they don't really tell us much. Why all the secrecy? Why the NDA in the first place? Why not give this thing some bloody legitimacy instead of hiding behind a 'oh I'm sorry, but we *really* can't tell you all the details'. People are losing confidence because you're being so secretive!

Roughy, AMC takes care of the chips, VMC takes care of the machines:
- AMC develops the chip, pays the chip's NRE and sells the chip in bulk to customers (using VMC as intermediary).
- VMC uses AMC's chip (or any other chips) and builds bitcoin miners, paying a royalty cost to AMC whenever its IP is used.

Chip sales: AMC holds IP rights on the Fast-Hash-ONE chips, so AMC contracts with VMC the following services: (a) the representation services to negotiate chip production with eASIC and (b) the re-selling of AMC's chips in bulk. AMC also guarantees chip exclusivity to VMC, so that AMC won't negotiate a chip supply contract to any other bitcoin systems manufacturer. AMC gets 70% back from the profits on the sale of bulk chips, while VMC gets 30%. All of VMC's expenses, including representation, chip stock management and re-shipping expenses to final customers are taken from their 30% profit.

System sales: AMC also allows VMC to buy chips directly from eASIC at the lowest cost, for the manufacturing of bitcoin mining systems. On every sale of these systems or parts of it that contain AMC chips or IP, AMC receives a 10% royalty fee from the total gross sales revenue. Example: if a customer purchases a system for ฿100, AMC receives ฿10, whatever the profit margins for VMC are.

Jesus this is complicated... First off, why not just merge the companies, rather than messing around with something like this convoluted set up?

Second off, how is VMC funded? Where does it get its cashflow from?

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Fourth, AMC sells chips to VMC, VMC then makes full mining systems (I'm guessing like the jalapenos etc), VMC then sells them on? I get the 10% royalty fee, but where does the other 90% go to? To VMC? And that's owned by who? So AMC does all the heavy lifting, sells its chips for a fee (presumably all of that profit goes 100% to AMC), and then basically only gets 10% royalty fee for something they could sell themselves for 100BTC and get 100% of the profit? You can see why that kind of sucks. 

Ugh, my head hurts trying to filter through all the BS, FUD, techno-babble and nonsense in this thread, just to get at some proper bloody answers. I should be entirely open and say that I have invested in this company, but I'm doing my 'due diligence' after the fact, so shame on me perhaps, but nevertheless, there are some serious gaps here that need addressed asap, preferably in a easy to digest summary. I often get the feeling that in anything bitcoin related, people hide behind the razzle-dazzle of vocabulary and jargon. K.I.S.S.

ASICMINER has a hell if a lot more than 40k shares. I believe it's in the neighborhood of 1 million (800k?) they just aren't all listed.

[TheSwede75]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Once you have more of a complete operation in place I would also very much appreciate a visit. I know I have been especially tough on the corporate structure, pricing and revenue goals but when the smoke settles if you would allow me I would be happy to swing by and say hi.

OMG! LMFAO! Swede is going long! 

Hey,
I think the current value is high, I don't like the "fuzzy" corporate structure or the pricing/expectations of the Miners but I have many times stated I don't think Ken if actively trying to scam anyone. Besides, I am closest to their office by several hundred miles.

[TheSwede75]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Once you have more of a complete operation in place I would also very much appreciate a visit. I know I have been especially tough on the corporate structure, pricing and revenue goals but when the smoke settles if you would allow me I would be happy to swing by and say hi.

OMG! LMFAO! Swede is going long! 

Something tells me that he might be buying a few shares at the moment.

Not yet,
I think the 0.0005 initial IPO price was fair and a little high. I might very well be picking some up if it comes down around that price again and some of my concerns are addressed.

[kslaughter]

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Let me just ask you  a simple question.  How would AMC sells chips itself?  Explain to me how that would be done?

[SoylentCreek]

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Let me just ask you  a simple question.  How would AMC sells chips itself?  Explain to me how that would be done?

eASIC----------->AMC-------------->Potential Chip Buyer

Did I miss something? 

I'm not trying to be cute, but Swede actually posed a fairly valid question.  We've almost got him over onto our side Ken!  Just answer the man's question! LOL

[kslaughter]

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Let me just ask you  a simple question.  How would AMC sells chips itself?  Explain to me how that would be done?

eASIC----------->AMC-------------->Potential Chip Buyer

Did I miss something? 

I'm not trying to be cute, but Swede actually posed a fairly valid question.  We've almost got him over onto our side Ken!  Just answer the man's question! LOL

Here is why AMC can not sell the chips.  There are no provisions for employees, unless you hire 4 at the same time.  There are no provisions for any kind of sales expenses one you hire the 4 employees.  There are no provisions for any kinda of hosting services.  There are no provisions for hiring someone to develop a website to sell the chips.  Even if you hired the 4 employees, the expenses are limited to a 10% maximum.  So please tell me how this would be done.

[bigdude]

Jesus this is complicated... First off, why not just merge the companies, rather than messing around with something like this convoluted set up?

Second off, how is VMC funded? Where does it get its cashflow from?

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Fourth, AMC sells chips to VMC, VMC then makes full mining systems (I'm guessing like the jalapenos etc), VMC then sells them on? I get the 10% royalty fee, but where does the other 90% go to? To VMC? And that's owned by who? So AMC does all the heavy lifting, sells its chips for a fee (presumably all of that profit goes 100% to AMC), and then basically only gets 10% royalty fee for something they could sell themselves for 100BTC and get 100% of the profit? You can see why that kind of sucks. 

Ugh, my head hurts trying to filter through all the BS, FUD, techno-babble and nonsense in this thread, just to get at some proper bloody answers. I should be entirely open and say that I have invested in this company, but I'm doing my 'due diligence' after the fact, so shame on me perhaps, but nevertheless, there are some serious gaps here that need addressed asap, preferably in a easy to digest summary. I often get the feeling that in anything bitcoin related, people hide behind the razzle-dazzle of vocabulary and jargon. K.I.S.S.

Ok, so I just woke up this morning, saw the FAQ Ken posted ... thank you for that Ken.

And I've just finished going through the extra 6 or 7 pages of posts that came overnight along with the FAQ, and still ...

NO ANSWER FROM KEN AROUND THE WHOLE AMC and VMC ISSUE - WHY TWO COMPANIES?

How hard is it to get an answer?

Ken, why do you need 2 companies ... just have AMC, finished. AMC does everything - the chips, the boards, the complete miner etc. And can see everything. You do not need a second company, VMC, to do this.

After 111 pages, an answer please Ken!

[bigdude]

Here is why AMC can not sell the chips.  There are no provisions for employees, unless you hire 4 at the same time.  There are no provisions for any kind of sales expenses one you hire the 4 employees.  There are no provisions for any kinda of hosting services.  There are no provisions for hiring someone to develop a website to sell the chips.  Even if you hired the 4 employees, the expenses are limited to a 10% maximum.  So please tell me how this would be done.

Cool, you posted that 7 seconds before my post above

You are making everything way too complicated.

How is ASICMINER able to do everything under one company? But somehow, you think it's an impossibility

[kslaughter]

Here is why AMC can not sell the chips.  There are no provisions for employees, unless you hire 4 at the same time.  There are no provisions for any kind of sales expenses one you hire the 4 employees.  There are no provisions for any kinda of hosting services.  There are no provisions for hiring someone to develop a website to sell the chips.  Even if you hired the 4 employees, the expenses are limited to a 10% maximum.  So please tell me how this would be done.

Cool, you posted that 7 seconds before my post above

You are making everything way too complicated.

How is ASICMINER able to do everything under one company? But somehow, you think it's an impossibility

I am not saying that it can't be done.  I am saying that the description of the offering of AMC makes it impossible to do.

[kslaughter]

New Section 5 in the FAQ's

5) So, how can AMC be valued since shares do not directly represent ownership, but profits?
You can use a simple conversion for it: [#investor's_shares * current_price], with [1 - #investor's_shares/40M] (%) of dividends being kept for reinvestment.
Using current values (2nd July 2013), there are ~6M shares sold to investors and ~34M in the growth/expansion fund. At a price of 0.001, AMC is valued at 6M*0.001 = BTC6000, with 1-6/40 = 85% of dividends being kept for reinvestment.