[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[lolstate]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

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[SoylentCreek]

This is how it works. It's risky (I'm not saying it isn't). You have to build trust to gain it. Avalons have arrive, people ahve called easic and confirmed they are under NDA with AMC. We will see what happens when August rolls around.

Sorry, but I must have missed something important throughout all the FUD, but can you tell me specifically what is supposedly going down in August?  Is this when the first round of chips are expected to start arriving?  I agree though with your assessment that the secrecy is somewhat a necessary evil.  It's quite possible that there is something even bigger than what was recently announced lying in the details of what eASIC is holding onto.  I'm willing to wait and see how this pans out at the end of the day, but I can say with confidence that I won't be putting more money in until things appear a little more concrete.

[SoylentCreek]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

[lolstate]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

[lewicki]

This is how it works. It's risky (I'm not saying it isn't). You have to build trust to gain it. Avalons have arrive, people ahve called easic and confirmed they are under NDA with AMC. We will see what happens when August rolls around.

Sorry, but I must have missed something important throughout all the FUD, but can you tell me specifically what is supposedly going down in August?  Is this when the first round of chips are expected to start arriving?  I agree though with your assessment that the secrecy is somewhat a necessary evil.  It's quite possible that there is something even bigger than what was recently announced lying in the details of what eASIC is holding onto.  I'm willing to wait and see how this pans out at the end of the day, but I can say with confidence that I won't be putting more money in until things appear a little more concrete.

Avalon has started shipping their bulk chip orders - or at least soon will be.

20,000 avalon chips are due to arrive during August. Sometime this month Ken should be revealing the Avalon board prototype to run those chips.

[Thalum]

Hi lewicki, and thanks for addressing some of my points. Responses below.

60 million of those shares will never be sold. only 20m at the moment and 40m total will eventually be  on the "market". ASICminer sold their IPO shares for .1 BTC correct? .1BTCx400,000=40,000BTC.

So if they will never be sold, why have them in the first place? I don't get that.  

Why raise money that AMC did not know if they could use. The received good news on the eASIC chip, then released shares to raise fund for chip production. putting the cart before the horse is not a good idea usually.

My main question hasn't been answered yet. Of the 40 million shares issued, how many have been sold? And are those unsold shares receiving dividends? If there are only 20 million on at the moment, the dividend doesn't match up.

Additionally, a company should know what its going to do with any money raised. Whether that it having pre-contracts in place, alternative plans if those fail, incentives to equipment suppliers etc to support the business.

40m shares issued at the moment, 40 million are receiving dividends. 20m shares gurantees profits are being used to update hardware, etc. Every company needs to reinvest profits to keep up int he world.

Well I get that, but normally a company uses a portion of its shares for reinvestment, while another portion goes to dividends. If those 20 million unsold shares are receiving dividends, it's like the company is paying itself, which isn't good accounting practice (from my limited reading). For example, Steve Jobs owned shares in Apple, but Apple itself never owned Apple shares.

Show of good faith probably. Regardless, I'm satisfied with that decision.

Again, only addressing part of the question. If Ken is not making any money on this at the moment, why not? I'm not asking for a detailed financial history, but I can't understand why someone would be working for free on this.

This is how it works. It's risky (I'm not saying it isn't). You have to build trust to gain it. Avalons have arrive, people ahve called easic and confirmed they are under NDA with AMC. We will see what happens when August rolls around.

It is risky, but I don't see how this is building trust. In fact, it's something just convenient to hide behind.

[auto2nr1]

How about we apply to get MegaMouth a day pass and if it gets granted, we send him on a day trip.

His unbiased view could be just what we need to find out if Ken is legitimate. 

What's the point?  He's just going to find a few Avalon units and if it's in the new few weeks, maybe some Avalon clones.  Anything that's worth seeing is under the supposed NDA.

I think its more that we could arrange for someone to ask questions face to face... and importantly the right questions to reassure everyone. You are right that some aspects may be secret, but I'm hopefully that enough could be seen to satisfy most people.

Besides, someone just mentioned its $50 return for gas money... thats chump change compared to the amounts of money going around on BitFunder right now.

I would be willing to pitch in for the trip if a few members nearby wanted to take the trip to Ken and address some of the issues that the shareholders have pointed out and come back with a resolution to these issues and changes made to the original agreement. Ken said he would be more than happy to make changes if necessary. If we can get some sort of a balanced agreement between Ken and the shareholders it would be well worth the trip. If the conditions and terms don't change then we will still be stuck where we are now.

[kslaughter]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

[TheSwede75]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Once you have more of a complete operation in place I would also very much appreciate a visit. I know I have been especially tough on the corporate structure, pricing and revenue goals but when the smoke settles if you would allow me I would be happy to swing by and say hi.

[ChefBorjan]

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Thanks for that Ken, and yes I think its important for us to come up with a realistic plan of what we expect at this stage as well as the questions to be asked. I think the meet up plan should be fleshed out first, then we can start nominating individuals and setting up dates.

[SoylentCreek]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

I would be up for coming out next Saturday.  I'd like to be able to do it this weekend, but my wife and I have already made plans, with the 4th coming up and all.  I'll be looking forward to meeting you.  Let's see if we can get babefoot on board for that.

[lolstate]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Once you have more of a complete operation in place I would also very much appreciate a visit. I know I have been especially tough on the corporate structure, pricing and revenue goals but when the smoke settles if you would allow me I would be happy to swing by and say hi.

OMG! LMFAO! Swede is going long! 

[SoylentCreek]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Once you have more of a complete operation in place I would also very much appreciate a visit. I know I have been especially tough on the corporate structure, pricing and revenue goals but when the smoke settles if you would allow me I would be happy to swing by and say hi.

OMG! LMFAO! Swede is going long! 

Something tells me that he might be buying a few shares at the moment.

[kslaughter]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

How about Soylent and babefoot both go at the same time? They could hook up, drive to Ken's and ask our questions/take a few snaps. I mean this scam conspiracy is going to have to be pretty sophisticated, along the lines of the best out takes from the last Mission Impossible movie, for people to claim this is part of the con.

I would be okay with this.  Of course we would need to meet up at Springfield, seeing as I would be coming from Arkansas and he/she would be coming from OK.

Yep, absolutely. Meet around the corner from Ken's office, then travel there together. I'll happily pay gas x 2.

Edit: as long as babefoot is ok with this. I don't want anyone to feel they are being railroaded into something they are not comfortable with.

Would love to meet up with both of you.  I will buy lunch and then we can go over and look at our new manufacturing site.  However, we are just getting started
putting together the manufacturing line, so there is not really that much to see at this point.  You would see that we do have a site rented, and that we are setting up
the office, getting security in place.  Also, we are starting to get in an inventory of cases and power supplies.  Just let me know when you want to do this.

Once you have more of a complete operation in place I would also very much appreciate a visit. I know I have been especially tough on the corporate structure, pricing and revenue goals but when the smoke settles if you would allow me I would be happy to swing by and say hi.

Sure, that would be fine.

[auto2nr1]

It's great that we are moving towards a positive direction. But let's discuss what the agenda of the meeting. What issues will be discussed and resolved? Let's get a list of everything that will need to be clarified and changed.

[lewicki]

Hi lewicki, and thanks for addressing some of my points. Responses below.

60 million of those shares will never be sold. only 20m at the moment and 40m total will eventually be  on the "market". ASICminer sold their IPO shares for .1 BTC correct? .1BTCx400,000=40,000BTC.

So if they will never be sold, why have them in the first place? I don't get that.  

100% of profits get divided into the 40 million shares for about the first year. Then into 100 million shares thereafter.

Why raise money that AMC did not know if they could use. The received good news on the eASIC chip, then released shares to raise fund for chip production. putting the cart before the horse is not a good idea usually.

My main question hasn't been answered yet. Of the 40 million shares issued, how many have been sold? And are those unsold shares receiving dividends? If there are only 20 million on at the moment, the dividend doesn't match up.


20,000,000   133vWXKUDgUHJ1RmFV7WQwr2N7Y1SF2QvV
9,829,178   19G1bxo86NZc2CwP6Qq9981fkbFtVUDc56
2,000,000   16yTynjmSe5bsRGykDaaCL5bm2pxiEfcqA
1,640,081   16yTynjmSe5bsRGykDaaCL5bm2pxiEfcqP

half of current shares(20 million) are reinvestment. that 2 million is for BTC-TC, 500k are sold.

9,829,178+
2,000,000+
1,640,081=
-----------
13,469,259

20,000,000 - 13,469,259 = 6,530,741 shares have been sold on bitfunder.

13,469,259-500,000 are rolled into the reinvestment fund which adds to 29,???,??? of the allotted 40,000,000 shares.  




Additionally, a company should know what its going to do with any money raised. Whether that it having pre-contracts in place, alternative plans if those fail, incentives to equipment suppliers etc to support the business.

They knew they would need money for the chip, but they were making sure it was feasible before they collected money. Imagine the shitstorm if AMC collected money for a chip that wouldn't hold water.

40m shares issued at the moment, 40 million are receiving dividends. 20m shares gurantees profits are being used to update hardware, etc. Every company needs to reinvest profits to keep up int he world.

Well I get that, but normally a company uses a portion of its shares for reinvestment, while another portion goes to dividends. If those 20 million unsold shares are receiving dividends, it's like the company is paying itself, which isn't good accounting practice (from my limited reading). For example, Steve Jobs owned shares in Apple, but Apple itself never owned Apple shares.

Take the nuances of method of payment up with Ken. Not sure why.

Show of good faith probably. Regardless, I'm satisfied with that decision.

Again, only addressing part of the question. If Ken is not making any money on this at the moment, why not? I'm not asking for a detailed financial history, but I can't understand why someone would be working for free on this.

To (my guesses):
-promote the company
-cast it good light
-provide maximum return for the early adopters
-maximize the mount of shares collecting reinvestment dividends

investors are taking a huge risk, ken realizes this and forfeits his dividends because he believes in the company so much.

This is how it works. It's risky (I'm not saying it isn't). You have to build trust to gain it. Avalons have arrive, people ahve called easic and confirmed they are under NDA with AMC. We will see what happens when August rolls around.

It is risky, but I don't see how this is building trust. In fact, it's something just convenient to hide behind.

Well that's just like your opinion, man.  

[steveioio]

Before you all have a group hug I'd like to point out a few things.

1) This meeting hasn't happened yet. It may be promised but until it actually happens no investor or potential investor should be getting excited or making any decisions based on these few exchanges on an internet thread.

2) If Ken has rented a large unit and you guys get evidence (pictures/video) of it up here it would not matter if there was not yet a significant amount of assembly going on because him having the space ready for machines is a good sign. A good sign that he intends to sell mining rigs and mine BTC under the banner of VMC - none of which you have shares in. Your shares are in AMC and that gives you very limited security about future dividends. So essentially even if Ken does set up a BTC farm and sells mining rigs AMC holders have no guarantee of any proceeds because Ken can walk away from AMC at anytime and sit on VMC by himself raking it in.

3) Please read point 2 again and think hard about it. This unit (should it exist) is, according to Kens site, the headquarters of VMC. Not AMC but VMC. All machines in this site (should it exist) belong to VMC not AMC. At anytime Ken can for reasons of, lets say not having enough hashing power to split dividends with the shareholders, walk away from AMC. And there is nothing a lawyer could do about it, his contract allows him to do it and if he does your shares would go to zero overnight. Oh and Ken would be even richer, there is no downside to him doing it.

None of that is being negative - the contract has been written specifically to allow the severance of VMC from AMC.

Until points 1 and 2 are addressed without any uncertainty you have no safeguards about your investment - absolutely none.

[Minor Miner]

Just want to say that I gave Ken a call last night using the number on btctc. We talked for over half an hour and he answered some questions I had as to the validity of the company. I never had any sense of a scam or fraudulent actions. Ken seems like a nice and friendly guy and I actually repurchased some shares that I had previously sold. Ken even said that he purchased some for his personal account. I know that you all might not believe me, I haven't built up a reputation on these forums at all. But I encourage you to give Ken a call yourself if you are doubting the company. I think that Ken is onto something big and with the determination that he has I think it will pay off to his investors. And yeah, he'll make a killing from it all, but he is the one doing all the work after all.

Any investment has its risks. But I'm confident that Ken is real and working hard towards something big. Don't believe me? Give Ken a call.

How did you find out about this investment opportunity?

[FloatesMcgoates]

This is the satellite image of the address that Ken used for VMC's "Principal place of business" as stated in the NDA picture he posted today:

[John818]

There is only one agenda and that is to prove or disprove the scam theory.

Otherwise what is to be answered that can't be asked using this forum?