[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[kslaughter]

So assuming AMC purchases all happen on schedule.  What total % of the 3660 daily coins should we be factoring into the per share dividend calculation?  I realize we can't know what the total hash rate of the network is.  But similarly to the Asicminer evaluations estimating 30% percent perpetually, what percent are we thinking AMC will hold?

Would it be crazy to assume 10%?  At 10%, that would be 133590 btc/year or .00333975 per share (only the first 40,000,000 receive dividends until .0005 is paid, I believe).  If you pattern the share valuation after Asicminer (where dividends are paying roughly 50% of the stock price annually) then @ 10%, AMC shares would be worth roughly .0066795 each.  (roughly 8 times more than there current price on BitFunder)

This is an honest question, not an attempt to pump the stock price.  I'm seriously considering a purchase and want to make sure I'm thinking clearly.

I think you are very close.  I figured the amount with the hashing power we have purchased with a 50% reinvestment of the income stream back into new equipment to make up for the difficulty increase to be .01 BTC.  Of course this could be more or less depending on how the hashing rate increases over the time frame after we receive the equipment.  So I think your estimate is good and conservative.

[1715552926]

1715552926

[1715552926]

1715552926

[stoasis]

Oh come on, stop with this nonsense. If you don't like it don't buy it!

I agree with making things more transparent, I want to see Ken's full name, address, etc but this is the Bitcoin world, things are risky and he is doing nothing different from what Asicminer did.

And I have a feeling you want to see the bond price go down so you can buy some at .0005.

There are lots of things in life that are risky, but this shouldn't omit the chance to have a meaningful discussion. Transparency of the company has less to do with the name of the CEO and more to do with knowing how the company is being taken care of. ASICminer is great in many ways. But i'm convinced that it's success is mainly due to friedcat . He has been providing us with a clear view current state of affaires and has a clear set of (achievable) goals for the company.

[lewicki]

Well I've done a little digging:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146451.0

It looks like the Batch 2 orders made on Feb 10th 2013 started arriving yesterday.

Looking at http://www.axs.net/AMC/Avalon-Orders.png. AMC's order was placed on Feb 18th 2013

Seems AMC is getting close the receiving them.

[kslaughter]

AMC Offering:

AMC's offering is comprised of 100,000,000 shares in total.

1 share of AMC on BitFunder represents 1/100,000,000th of 100% of the monthly profits after all expenses.

AMC shares offer no voting rights. Shares of AMC on BitFunder do not represent real world shares of the
company.  The shares are solely a distribution mechanism for rights to profits.

20,000,000 shares will be retained by AMC to maintain a growth and expansion fund.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying
time scale as capital is required to complete the project.  Any remaining shares not included in the
IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion
for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

Shares not issued are owned by AMC which is indirectly implying that the founders are owning more than 60% of the shares. I'm also wondering what you mean by R&D. Aren't the miners developed by VMC which, as you have stated before, is a different company.

Of the 100% of shares.

20% are held by AMC for growth/reinvestment (a horrible way to do things but sadly common - shares should represent ownership not be a crude way to determine the percentage of profits dividended),
40% are potentially for sale to the public - with unsold ones the same as the first 20%
The other 40% would be the founder's own shares.

There's thus three ways to look at it:

If you look at divdends then the founder receives 40% of all dividends regardless of how many shares are sold.
If you look at distributed profits (i.e. the dividends that end up NOT going back to AMC) then before any shares were sold he received 100% (obviously) and when all 40% public ones are sold he receives 50%.
If you look at actual ownership then he owns 100% initially falling to 60% if all public shares are sold.

Right now if any profits were made he'd be entitled to the vast majority of that portion of them that was destined to end anywhere other than in AMC itself - as his personal 40% outweigh the portion actually sold.

How well the shares do depend mainly on how profits are calculated - which is where you have to hope he's generous as that largely depends on how VMC decides to define its cost price that it charges to AMC.  And of course VMC isn't responsible to investors so doesn't have to make any disclosure in respect of that.

Bottomline is that he DOES own more than 60% - dropping to exactly 60% if/when all 40% of public shares are sold.  Reason for that is the ownership the shares owned by AMC.  Those are owned by whoever owns AMC.  Shareholders do NOT own AMC (that's explicit in the contract) so do not any part of those shares.  In practical terms, assuming good faith, the actual effective owned percentage of profits is 50% if all public shares are sold.

Nice to hear from you Deprived,

You have most of it right.  However, I don't receive dividends on most of my 40% for the next 12 months.    The dividends are going to the Investors and AMC.  AMC will be using all of the dividends it receives for R & D, and purchasing of more hashing power for the cooperative per the description posted on Bitfunder.

The contract between AMC and VMC that you forced me to write, which turned out to be a good thing and I want to thank you for that.  This contract which is posted on Bitfunder causes VMC to have a fiduciary responsibility to AMC.  Wikipedia: "In such a relation good conscience requires the fiduciary to act at all times for the sole benefit and interest of the one who trusts." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary

[kslaughter]

Well I've done a little digging:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=146451.0

It looks like the Batch 2 orders made on Feb 10th 2013 started arriving yesterday.

Looking at http://www.axs.net/AMC/Avalon-Orders.png. AMC's order was placed on Feb 18th 2013

Seems AMC is getting close the receiving them.

Yes, I am check the shopping cart everyday and will post a press release when the status changes in the shopping cart.

[Vbs]

I'll vote for putting them up on BitMinter when they arrive: 1% fee, merged mining (BTC+NMC) and block transaction fees sharing.

Edit: And Live Stats can be seen at https://bitminter.com/livestats/big for everyone to confirm the hashrate.

[Mabsark]

I'll vote for putting them up on BitMinter when they arrive: 1% fee, merged mining (BTC+NMC) and block transaction fees sharing.

Edit: And Live Stats can be seen at https://bitminter.com/livestats/big for everyone to confirm the hashrate.

What's the PPLNS reward per share? I had a look at the site but couldn't find that info.

[lewicki]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Current Difficulty: 12153411.7098
Hash rate = 60,000*6 = 360,000

BTC14.90 per day
BTC104.28 per week
BTC452.85 per month

Number of AMC shares receiving dividends: 40 million

Dividends would most likely be payed weekly. Therefore the formula to use would be:

[# of shares owned] * (BTC104.28 - [cost of electricity]) / 40,000,000

[kslaughter]

I'll vote for putting them up on BitMinter when they arrive: 1% fee, merged mining (BTC+NMC) and block transaction fees sharing.

Edit: And Live Stats can be seen at https://bitminter.com/livestats/big for everyone to confirm the hashrate.

I will take a look at this.  Looks good from your post.

[kendog77]

Caveat emptor

http://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/qasbsec.htm#noreg

[Vbs]

I'll vote for putting them up on BitMinter when they arrive: 1% fee, merged mining (BTC+NMC) and block transaction fees sharing.

Edit: And Live Stats can be seen at https://bitminter.com/livestats/big for everyone to confirm the hashrate.

What's the PPLNS reward per share? I had a look at the site but couldn't find that info.

PPLNS doesn't use a specific reward per share, you receive a % of the block reward based on your submitted share # during a time period (shift) vs total # submitted to the pool.

For 24/7 mining, the reward scheme is irrelevant (some have more variance in payouts than others, not really relevant for 24/7).

I'd say what is really relevant, roughly by order of importance: (1) pool uptime, (2) pool connection reliability+low ping, (3) pool fee+merged mining opportunity and (4) pool block tx fees sharing.

[Mabsark]

I'll vote for putting them up on BitMinter when they arrive: 1% fee, merged mining (BTC+NMC) and block transaction fees sharing.

Edit: And Live Stats can be seen at https://bitminter.com/livestats/big for everyone to confirm the hashrate.

What's the PPLNS reward per share? I had a look at the site but couldn't find that info.

PPLNS doesn't use a specific reward per share, you receive a % of the block reward based on your submitted share # during a time period (shift) vs total # submitted to the pool.

For 24/7 mining, the reward scheme is irrelevant (some have more variance in payouts than others, not really relevant for 24/7).

I'd say what is really relevant, roughly by order of importance: (1) pool uptime, (2) pool connection reliability+low ping, (3) pool fee+merged mining opportunity and (4) pool block tx fees sharing.

Yeah, for some reason, I was confusing it with PPS.

[kslaughter]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Current Difficulty: 12153411.7098
Hash rate = 60,000*6 = 360,000

BTC14.90 per day
BTC104.28 per week
BTC452.85 per month

Number of AMC shares receiving dividends: 40 million

Dividends would most likely be payed weekly. Therefore the formula to use would be:

[# of shares owned] * (BTC104.28 - [cost of electricity]) / 40,000,000

Yes, that would be close.  Of course [# of shares owned] * (BTC104.28 - [cost of electricity]) / 40,000,000 will go back into
to buying more mining equipment.

[Vbs]

The Avalons from batch 2 are rated at 65GH/s (minimum) and 595W of power consumption. So, six with 390GH/s@3570W yield at current difficulty 113BTC per week less ~0.27BTC for power expenses (assuming $0.06/kWh).

These values can be easily checked at http://dustcoin.com/mining

[SpaceProphet]

Looks like someone is manipulating the market again, with over 100k shares bidding at 0.00079 and twice the amount asking at 0.00080 -- wonder who it is?

[fently]

Looks like someone is manipulating the market again, with over 100k shares bidding at 0.00079 and twice the amount asking at 0.00080 -- wonder who it is?

Some might call it pumping, others might call it a pre-announced share buy-back. But to save everyone some back and forth, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=158806.msg2307404#msg2307404

In short: this was not unexpected.

[Minor Miner]

Looks like someone is manipulating the market again, with over 100k shares bidding at 0.00079 and twice the amount asking at 0.00080 -- wonder who it is?

Some might call it pumping, others might call it a pre-announced share buy-back. But to save everyone some back and forth, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=158806.msg2307404#msg2307404
In short: this was not unexpected.

Come on.   How many companies can you name that IPO, do not even sell 5% of their shares and then "buy them back at 60% higher than their offering price?
Yes, I know the offering is illegal so the point may be lost on you BUT, you do know it is AGAINST the law for any broker listing on a prospectus or for the issuing company's treasury to buy back primary or secondary offering shares at ANY price above the issue price?

[fently]

Looks like someone is manipulating the market again, with over 100k shares bidding at 0.00079 and twice the amount asking at 0.00080 -- wonder who it is?

Some might call it pumping, others might call it a pre-announced share buy-back. But to save everyone some back and forth, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=158806.msg2307404#msg2307404
In short: this was not unexpected.

Come on.   How many companies can you name that IPO, do not even sell 5% of their shares and then "buy them back at 60% higher than their offering price?
Yes, I know the offering is illegal so the point may be lost on you BUT, you do know it is AGAINST the law for any broker listing on a prospectus or for the issuing company's treasury to buy back primary or secondary offering shares at ANY price above the issue price?

Sorry -- I was trying to be as impartial as possible. I have already stated my opinion of this offering, in great detail, and felt that it was not useful to repeat it at this time.

[Vbs]

Looks like someone is manipulating the market again, with over 100k shares bidding at 0.00079 and twice the amount asking at 0.00080 -- wonder who it is?

Some might call it pumping, others might call it a pre-announced share buy-back. But to save everyone some back and forth, read this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=158806.msg2307404#msg2307404
In short: this was not unexpected.

Come on.   How many companies can you name that IPO, do not even sell 5% of their shares and then "buy them back at 60% higher than their offering price?
Yes, I know the offering is illegal so the point may be lost on you BUT, you do know it is AGAINST the law for any broker listing on a prospectus or for the issuing company's treasury to buy back primary or secondary offering shares at ANY price above the issue price?

Most flippers will want your head now, since without the large 0.00079999 wall there's no guaranteed maximum flipping profit!

[dhenson]

Illegal?  You are assuming that those laws / regulations apply to a virtual exchange on a virtual stock?

Serious question.