[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[joris]

Am i the only one who is bothered (understatement) by him removing and adding shares just because he was a little frustrated?

Imagine this happening in the real world out there with real stocks...it's totally absurd what just happened.
In the real world after a stunt like this he would be bankrupt the next day.
Here people simply keep on buying?
Seriously?

In the real world, one becomes a bankrupt, heavily persecuted bastard like Jon Corzine. Oh wait...

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[ajk]

$25M backed with what? 6 Avalons and 20k Avalon chips? 60 Avalons and 200k Avalon chips, maybe? LOL, you people investing here are truly insane.

Why dont you let us be insane then, That is what Everyone told me when I was buying BTC for 2-4 dollars but guess whose laughing now?

[superduh]

TBH, regardless of if Ken delivers in the hardware part of things (also, regardless of his previous strange predictions in his press releases)
reading all this and him being based in the US i wouldn't be surprised if he had many non-technical challenges that are coming his way - lawsuits, sec etc

[ajk]

Yup im stupid, I did the same thing while I was buying bitcoin which was investing in something that I thought had a chance,

Knife catching and buying things that people think have no hope is risky but brings the most reward, your entitled to your opinion but Im going to keep doing what im doing,

[ajk]

TBH, regardless of if Ken delivers in the hardware part of things (also, regardless of his previous strange predictions in his press releases)
reading all this and him being based in the US i wouldn't be surprised if he had many non-technical challenges that are coming his way - lawsuits, sec etc

These accusations are also a bit ridiculous, if people are claiming pump and dump ken would not be setting a price to sell the shares nor announcing that what he is doing, do some of you play the real markets? because CEOs and chair/board members buy and sell massive amounts of shares all the time, If Ken was pumping and dumping wouldnt he want to announce better news than what he said and then crash the price? isnt this what a pump and dump is?

it would be different if ken was accepting money and then paying old investor dividends with new money because then this would be a ponzi scheme but we are buying shares in a mining operation, we know he has guaranteed income, as long as the person running it is trustable the company should in theory do fine

Ken has not lied about anything he has said in the past and if you remember he was so excited to give the news he forgot the avalons were even coming (or he just was short on time), buy or sell do what you will but I guess the bets are set for 3 months to see whose outperforming who, I could care less since I own shares in both AM and AMC,

edit : not attacking superduh just saying in general that seems to be what the claim is or price manipulation but given bitcoins nature you can say the same for every security available,

[superduh]

ajk, i don't think you realize just how complex laws are in the US especially regarding "investments".

[Exocyst]

Well meaning as the criticism started. This has clearly moved on to trolling. Please increase the level of discourse. If you have a significant stake in other competing security or hardware company, then your criticisms must be taken skeptically. Otherwise, allow AMC shareholders to have a thread to discuss a security they believe enough in to invest their bitcoins.

[Vbs]

Moving on... Repost for those that have missed it.

.0025 Shares sold on Bifunder: 432,649
.0025 Shares sold on BTC-TC: 511,678
Total: 944,327

944323/4000000 = 0.23608075 = ~23.6 % funded

Thanks!

The raised capital from those is already more than enough. Even if not a single more share is sold, and considering tough difficulty estimates, the revenue from the incoming hardware (especially the 20.000 Avalon chips) is more than enough to put AMC above the $1M mark (see last row).

Ken: the correct number of shares in BF should be 1,567,351.

[steveioio]

I've no idea but lets suppose AMC is a setup. If that is the case then with price so low and no demand for shares the architect would be silly to hang around much longer and would soon be bailing out never to be seen again. So I think we will know sooner rather than later if AMC is genuine. The general advice is always - risk what you can afford to loose. There are no guarantees here. If you can sell a few shares to cover all or most of your initial investment then do that so that you will atleast not loose a big wad of cash. This is high risk and the next few days will be crucial IMHO. No disrespect to anyone but we have to discuss real world possibilities that could occur. As a matter of interest do we know how much FIAT has been generated for AMC with the IPO and this latest offering? Would it be an amount worth 'disappearing with' knowing that you need a fair amount to successfully hide from the law. Again no disrespect intended but who knows if even BTC will fail. No certainties here.

[Kyune]

TBH, regardless of if Ken delivers in the hardware part of things (also, regardless of his previous strange predictions in his press releases)
reading all this and him being based in the US i wouldn't be surprised if he had many non-technical challenges that are coming his way - lawsuits, sec etc

I don't follow this thread incredibly closely, as I don't own any shares, but if I understand correctly, Ken, AMC and VMC have all represented themselves, at one time or another, as being U.S.-based entities or businesses, presumably based in Missouri.  They may have opened themselves up to legal exposure simply by offering "shares" that are niot "registered" or otherwise in compliance with federal securities or Missouri Blue Sky laws.  On top of that, I have seen in this thread allegations of market manipulation, i.e., actions taken by Ken/AMC in terms of how shares have been priced and sold, that might further run afoul of those laws.

You can read more on the websites of the Missouri Secretary of State (http://www.sos.mo.gov/securities/pubs/complying_laws.asp) and the SEC (http://www.sec.gov/investor.shtml).  There are also links on those websites that allow current or former shareholders of AMC to lodge complaints and bring these matters to the attention of government regulators if they wish to do so.

[lolstate]

Well meaning as the criticism started. This has clearly moved on to trolling. Please increase the level of discourse. If you have a significant stake in other competing security or hardware company, then your criticisms must be taken skeptically. Otherwise, allow AMC shareholders to have a thread to discuss a security they believe enough in to invest their bitcoins.

How about making your own forum and moving there? That should not be a problem given how many millions you idiots already poured in the deal
offered here. But to move to separate forum would be bad because then you can not easily lure others into buying same crap you bought, right?

Lol, I'm loving this guy! Maybe we could upload some of his opinions to YouTube. Megamouth, do you have a video camera to hand? Never, repeat, never call this trolling. This is comedy gold  .

[bbxx]

So you overpaid by 0.479988?  I think its just a risk that comes along with investing. You never know whats going to happen with the prices.

As long as you're planning to stick around for the long run, you should see a positive ROI

I think so too. You only lose money if you sell.

You may be right.  But he'd make almost twice as much if he'd bought at .0005, which is the bullshit part of all this.  Anyway, KSlaughter is aware that it's bullshit and is trying to fix it.

He didnt fixed, he did this again.
So kenslaughters family with 6 avalons and 20k outdated chips are worth 250$m usd now?
Family with funny domains and sites ranked in top 500 in google?
Projected huge avalon clone sales in 2014 priced at 6k usd?
Nda secret deal with company wchich made facepalm deal with crap seagate ssd cache controllers?

Please ken tell me where i am wrong and why i didnt get my stocks fixed.

[Flashman]

Well you either know what a startup is or you don't, frequently the only asset they have is an idea. Take Apple computer, at one point two hippies in a garage FFS.

What exactly are we expecting here, a fully formed multinational conglomerate for less than pennies a share? It does not happen.

We've got a little bit of substance which demonstrates progression toward stated goals, and some plans in the pipe which seem like fairly reasonable plans to realise those goals.

But crap, lets take all the money out then blame him for not making a space elevator with a shoestring, that'll work.  

[lewicki]

I don't follow this thread incredibly closely, as I don't own any shares, but if I understand correctly, Ken, AMC and VMC have all represented themselves, at one time or another, as being U.S.-based entities or businesses, presumably based in Missouri.  They may have opened themselves up to legal exposure simply by offering "shares" that are niot "registered" or otherwise in compliance with federal securities or Missouri Blue Sky laws.  On top of that, I have seen in this thread allegations of market manipulation, i.e., actions taken by Ken/AMC in terms of how shares have been priced and sold, that might further run afoul of those laws.

You can read more on the websites of the Missouri Secretary of State (http://www.sos.mo.gov/securities/pubs/complying_laws.asp) and the SEC (http://www.sec.gov/investor.shtml).  There are also links on those websites that allow current or former shareholders of AMC to lodge complaints and bring these matters to the attention of government regulators if they wish to do so.

AMC is registered in Belize.

[lewicki]

Well you either know what a startup is or you don't, frequently the only asset they have is an idea. Take Apple computer, at one point two hippies in a garage FFS.

What exactly are we expecting here, a fully formed multinational conglomerate for less than pennies a share? It does not happen.

We've got a little bit of substance which demonstrates progression toward stated goals, and some plans in the pipe which seem like fairly reasonable plans to realise those goals.

But crap, lets take all the money out then blame him for not making a space elevator with a shoestring, that'll work.  

Thank you. I needed that.

[Vbs]

Well you either know what a startup is or you don't, frequently the only asset they have is an idea. Take Apple computer, at one point two hippies in a garage FFS.

What exactly are we expecting here, a fully formed multinational conglomerate for less than pennies a share? It does not happen.

We've got a little bit of substance which demonstrates progression toward stated goals, and some plans in the pipe which seem like fairly reasonable plans to realise those goals.

But crap, lets take all the money out then blame him for not making a space elevator with a shoestring, that'll work.  

Thank you. I needed that.

+1. Your last phrase was pure gold!

[auto2nr1]

I still see the shares on Bitfunder. Oddly I now see 1.6 million, slightly higher than before.

'Still' ... just means you missed the disappearing act

Ken, I think we need an explanation of whats going on ... why did it disappear, then re-appear with more shares?

Yes, I did it out of frustration and I apologize, since my expertise is engineering, I am still learning the ins and out of the Bitcoin stock market.  The sell order is not going away until sold or until it's not needed anymore due to mining profits.  I commit to announcing in this thread before any share price movements in the future.

I did add a few more shares that were in the account as I did not know the exact amount of shares when I canceled the sell order.  If anyone remembers the exact amount, I'll re-list them as that.

Don't do this. As as investor that bought in at 0.0005 with over 100k in shares i have seen this manipulation from Ken several times. Let the market do what it needs to do to value the shares. Just leave it alone and step back.

I am under the impression that Ken cares more about the share price on daily bases then delivery of goods.

I would have more faith if he just released all the shares at once at IPO price and let the free market do its things.
The more he tries to control and manipulate the price the more he hurts his/company reputation.

I think this would have been the best idea. Maybe Ken should have released all the IPO shares initially which should have been 40,000,000 shares. Or maybe even break it down into 2 rounds and do 20m first and the other 20m at the market price of announcement.

I think that this deal could be summarized in this way:
The cca 6,000,000 shares sold (and another 14,000,000) are mainly for loan for funding R&D and production for VMC company. The risk of the loan is solely on investors in AMC.
For that 20,000,000 shares the investors are entitled to 2% of VMC's profits (AMC gets 10%, 20 mil. shares gets one fifth of that).
Also AMC has the option to buy the machines first (which is a great advantage, because the profit with mining much depends on when do you start mining compared to the difficulty) and is entitled to profits from mining (but at least 60% of the mining profits goes in Ken's pocket).

I don't like this whole VMC/AMC structure. Why are we risking everything to fund VMC's hardware project? Wouldn't it be better for VMC/AMC to be one entity and manufacture hardware and mine just like ASICMINER? I've been reading this thread since day 1 and there is so much drama, confusion and lack of transparency. Why can't we just keep it simple? Wouldn't it make more sense to have VMC/AMC operate under one roof. AMC can manufacture hardware and mine. AMC can use the hardware to mine or sell it if it will generate additional income on the side just like ASICMINER. With the mining revenue and hardware sales it will to back to the shareholders in dividends. The 20m in growth and expansion fund will then be used to continue manufacturing and selling more hardware. If more shares need to be released to raise funds for more growth and expansion then those shares can be released at the market price at that time. What do you guys think? Isn't this more easier to work with? Then AMC will be able to take in profits from mining and hardware sales and the investors will be happy and it will give the company more value.

Yep, we are risking our money for small potential profit.
I want to ask what if VMC default the loan?
The issuer is unaffected because it is just a transfer of money from his left pocket to his right pocket. But to all shareholders, it is a 100% loss!
Sorry, just sold all my shares, perhaps I am a weak hand, couldn't take the huge risk for small profit.

I think as shareholders we are taking the risk so the reward should be that much greater.

I don't get the part AMC is using its shareholder's money to fund the project of VMC and only get 10% royalty in return.

I don't get his either. If we the shareholders are using the money to fund a project it should be AMC's project and we should be entitled to the returns/dividends. I think at the time of the IPO only the 6 avalons were on order. The IPO funded the 20K in chips that will be used to make VMC's machines. Wouldn't it be better for AMC to fund the project to make the machines and profit from the mining and hardware sale dividends?

[kslaughter]

Moving on... Repost for those that have missed it.

.0025 Shares sold on Bifunder: 432,649
.0025 Shares sold on BTC-TC: 511,678
Total: 944,327

944323/4000000 = 0.23608075 = ~23.6 % funded

Thanks!

The raised capital from those is already more than enough. Even if not a single more share is sold, and considering tough difficulty estimates, the revenue from the incoming hardware (especially the 20.000 Avalon chips) is more than enough to put AMC above the $1M mark (see last row).

Ken: the correct number of shares in BF should be 1,567,351.

Changed the number of shares to correct amount above.

[burnside]

Yes, I did it out of frustration and I apologize, since my expertise is engineering, I am still learning the ins and out of the Bitcoin stock market.  The sell order is not going away until sold or until it's not needed anymore due to mining profits.  I commit to announcing in this thread before any share price movements in the future.

I did add a few more shares that were in the account as I did not know the exact amount of shares when I canceled the sell order.  If anyone remembers the exact amount, I'll re-list them as that.

I appreciate that it might be quite stressful to see nobody buying at 0.0025 (especially if you thought the news you released would have a more positive effect), but I think its best to concentrate on doing what you do best by showing people what AMC is capable of from the mining side of things, and in doing so you will build the level of trust back up, and the share price will soon follow...

We have just commited to 2 Full Racks of space at http://www.springfieldunderground.com/ after a tour this morning.  We have also reserved put a 2nd reservation on 2 more racks.

Check out the link above you would not believe this place.  It will take about 10 days to get everything in place and get the Avalon's moved to there new home.

More good news. Keep it up. Perhaps you could sit in one of their rooms when the stress of reading this thread starts raising your blood pressure!  On a more serious note, could you please provide any proof of this?

FWIW, I do not think that traditional hosting facilities are the way to go for a mass hashing operation unless you can buy a facility on the cheap as it's being vacated.

Cheap infrastructure (space, power, cooling) needs to be top priority to be competitive long-term.

My couple of cents.  

Cheers.

[Vbs]

Ken, if eASIC already has an e-beam machine for 28nm (I know they had it for 45nm), you could ask them to quickly make a dozen chips for AMC.

It would be nice to get them in reference boards and send some to trusted community members, and get cgminer/bfgminer support rolling.