[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[lolstate]

I agree, it should not be hard to conjure up the funds for a trip/petrol money if someone lives close by. I can put a few satoshis into this.

Me too.

[lewicki]

I agree, it should not be hard to conjure up the funds for a trip/petrol money if someone lives close by. I can put a few satoshis into this.

August is quickly approaching. Which means one party will be eating their shorts very soon.

[John818]

How about we apply to get MegaMouth a day pass and if it gets granted, we send him on a day trip.

His unbiased view could be just what we need to find out if Ken is legitimate. 

[keepinithamsta]

How about we apply to get MegaMouth a day pass and if it gets granted, we send him on a day trip.

His unbiased view could be just what we need to find out if Ken is legitimate. 

What's the point?  He's just going to find a few Avalon units and if it's in the new few weeks, maybe some Avalon clones.  Anything that's worth seeing is under the supposed NDA.

[SoylentCreek]

I agree, it should not be hard to conjure up the funds for a trip/petrol money if someone lives close by. I can put a few satoshis into this.

It would be somewhere in the ballpark of a 450 mile round trip for me to get there.  Assuming I left one morning, drove all the way up there, visited with Ken and came back that evening, it would be about $50 in gas to make it there and back, and I would want a little extra for my time.  I'm sure there is probably someone a little closer, or maybe even in Springfield who would be interested, but if no one else steps up, I would be more than willing to do it.  I would first need to call and confirm an appointment with Ken.  

[lolstate]

I agree, it should not be hard to conjure up the funds for a trip/petrol money if someone lives close by. I can put a few satoshis into this.

It would be somewhere in the ballpark of a 450 mile round trip for me to get there.  Assuming I left one morning, drove all the way up there, visited with Ken and came back that evening, it would be about $50 in gas to make it there and back, and I would want a little extra for my time.  I'm sure there is probably someone a little closer, or maybe even in Springfield who would be interested, but if no one else steps up, I would be more than willing to do it.  I would first need to call and confirm an appointment with Ken.  

I'll pay for the gas.

[stereotype]

How about we apply to get MegaMouth a day pass and if it gets granted, we send him on a day trip.

His unbiased view could be just what we need to find out if Ken is legitimate.  

+1

Funny, and logical. 

[steveioio]

Seriously, steveioio, here's an offer: let's put all this crap behind us and look forward to a bright future. Your idea for a crowd-sourced visit to Ken's new establishment is a good one. Folks, who lives nearest?

I'm past caring now dude I'll check back to see if this visit comes off otherwise its not my concern anymore. People have been warned enough it's their loss.

[Thalum]

Until at least May 2014, on the initial 40M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 20M can be sold to investors.
In May 2014, or when 0.0005 is payed by share, whichever happens later, an extra 60M are created, for the final total of 100M. On these remaining 60M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 40M can be sold to investors, with a 40M being retained by AMC/Ken.

Right, but *why* 100 million shares? This is a ridiculous number of shares compared to other securities (I mean, ASICminer has 40000 shares, a whole order of magnitude lower). This will just dilute existing shares, make it more difficult to sell shares (because there's always the possibility of flooding the market), and make a high valuation for the company so much harder to justify.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying time scale as capital is required to complete the project. Any remaining shares not included in the IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

Why not IPO all the shares at the same time, right at the beginning, but less of them?

Additionally, right now, how many shares have been issued, how many have been sold, and how many are held in reserve? Those shares which have not been issued aren't receiving dividends, are they? This goes on to my next point.

Dividends paid on unissued shares after the early-adopter phase will be retained by AMC and added to AMC's growth and expansion fund above until the shares are issued.

So basically, you're diluting the dividends across both issued and unissued shares? First, from my limited reading, unissued/unsold shares don't receive a dividend, so it seems that proper accounting/shareholder practices are not being followed (Right now, 40 million shares have been issued, but have 40 million been sold, and thus eligible for dividends? And then when you issue another 60 million, you'll be diluting the dividend even more so. To even get close to the kinds of dividends other companies are seeing (0.01 btc/share), you'd have to mine something like 40,000 bitcoins per week, even more when it's 100 million shares.

The first time I get a piece of the pie will be after a year of work (May 2014), when the rest of the 60M are issued. At that time, more 20M can be sold to investors, and I retain the remaining 40M.

Again, what's the rationale for this? Why are you not making money on the shares now? Additionally, when you issue those 60 million shares, other investors are going to be screwed because the dividend will be split across 100 million, not 40 million.

Engineering Firm quote for Avalon machines: http://axs.net/AMC/SB-Prototype-Quote.jpg
eASIC NDA: http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0001.jpg and http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0002.jpg

As nice as these are, they don't really tell us much. Why all the secrecy? Why the NDA in the first place? Why not give this thing some bloody legitimacy instead of hiding behind a 'oh I'm sorry, but we *really* can't tell you all the details'. People are losing confidence because you're being so secretive!

Roughy, AMC takes care of the chips, VMC takes care of the machines:
- AMC develops the chip, pays the chip's NRE and sells the chip in bulk to customers (using VMC as intermediary).
- VMC uses AMC's chip (or any other chips) and builds bitcoin miners, paying a royalty cost to AMC whenever its IP is used.

Chip sales: AMC holds IP rights on the Fast-Hash-ONE chips, so AMC contracts with VMC the following services: (a) the representation services to negotiate chip production with eASIC and (b) the re-selling of AMC's chips in bulk. AMC also guarantees chip exclusivity to VMC, so that AMC won't negotiate a chip supply contract to any other bitcoin systems manufacturer. AMC gets 70% back from the profits on the sale of bulk chips, while VMC gets 30%. All of VMC's expenses, including representation, chip stock management and re-shipping expenses to final customers are taken from their 30% profit.

System sales: AMC also allows VMC to buy chips directly from eASIC at the lowest cost, for the manufacturing of bitcoin mining systems. On every sale of these systems or parts of it that contain AMC chips or IP, AMC receives a 10% royalty fee from the total gross sales revenue. Example: if a customer purchases a system for ฿100, AMC receives ฿10, whatever the profit margins for VMC are.

Jesus this is complicated... First off, why not just merge the companies, rather than messing around with something like this convoluted set up?

Second off, how is VMC funded? Where does it get its cashflow from?

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Fourth, AMC sells chips to VMC, VMC then makes full mining systems (I'm guessing like the jalapenos etc), VMC then sells them on? I get the 10% royalty fee, but where does the other 90% go to? To VMC? And that's owned by who? So AMC does all the heavy lifting, sells its chips for a fee (presumably all of that profit goes 100% to AMC), and then basically only gets 10% royalty fee for something they could sell themselves for 100BTC and get 100% of the profit? You can see why that kind of sucks. 

Ugh, my head hurts trying to filter through all the BS, FUD, techno-babble and nonsense in this thread, just to get at some proper bloody answers. I should be entirely open and say that I have invested in this company, but I'm doing my 'due diligence' after the fact, so shame on me perhaps, but nevertheless, there are some serious gaps here that need addressed asap, preferably in a easy to digest summary. I often get the feeling that in anything bitcoin related, people hide behind the razzle-dazzle of vocabulary and jargon. K.I.S.S.

[ChefBorjan]

How about we apply to get MegaMouth a day pass and if it gets granted, we send him on a day trip.

His unbiased view could be just what we need to find out if Ken is legitimate. 

What's the point?  He's just going to find a few Avalon units and if it's in the new few weeks, maybe some Avalon clones.  Anything that's worth seeing is under the supposed NDA.

I think its more that we could arrange for someone to ask questions face to face... and importantly the right questions to reassure everyone. You are right that some aspects may be secret, but I'm hopefully that enough could be seen to satisfy most people.

Besides, someone just mentioned its $50 return for gas money... thats chump change compared to the amounts of money going around on BitFunder right now.

[lolstate]

We have an addresses in Springfield, Missouri for VMC headquarters.

It's on a commercial industrial street surrounded by other general businesses. If there is anyone on this thread who could travel to this address and knock on the door, look for a VMC sign on the door (they need one for deliveries), ask around the neighboring business and watching comings and goings for the day then we could get an answer as to if this outfit is real or not.

I'm sure many of us here could donate some btc between us to pay travel costs to whoever is the closest. This is a large unit by the looks of it (though I can't yet locate it on googlemaps) so it must be where VMC are assembling their machines (if there are any).

Any takers? You shouldn't need back up (though it always helps) as this is a busy commercial unit street.

I live a few hours away in Oklahoma.  I could visit on a weekend easily.  I'm a new member to the forum though, so I don't want to waste my time if everyone will hate on me for having a low post count.

Whatever is best. I'll pay for your gas if you are our best option. Thanks.

[kslaughter]

We have an addresses in Springfield, Missouri for VMC headquarters.

It's on a commercial industrial street surrounded by other general businesses. If there is anyone on this thread who could travel to this address and knock on the door, look for a VMC sign on the door (they need one for deliveries), ask around the neighboring business and watching comings and goings for the day then we could get an answer as to if this outfit is real or not.

I'm sure many of us here could donate some btc between us to pay travel costs to whoever is the closest. This is a large unit by the looks of it (though I can't yet locate it on googlemaps) so it must be where VMC are assembling their machines (if there are any).

Any takers? You shouldn't need back up (though it always helps) as this is a busy commercial unit street.

I live a few hours away in Oklahoma.  I could visit on a weekend easily.  I'm a new member to the forum though, so I don't want to waste my time if everyone will hate on me for having a low post count.

Whatever is best. I'll pay for your gas if you are our best option. Thanks.

I would be happy to meet with you, if you drive over.

[SoylentCreek]

Until at least May 2014, on the initial 40M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 20M can be sold to investors.
In May 2014, or when 0.0005 is payed by share, whichever happens later, an extra 60M are created, for the final total of 100M. On these remaining 60M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 40M can be sold to investors, with a 40M being retained by AMC/Ken.

Right, but *why* 100 million shares? This is a ridiculous number of shares compared to other securities (I mean, ASICminer has 40000 shares, a whole order of magnitude lower). This will just dilute existing shares, make it more difficult to sell shares (because there's always the possibility of flooding the market), and make a high valuation for the company so much harder to justify.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying time scale as capital is required to complete the project. Any remaining shares not included in the IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

Why not IPO all the shares at the same time, right at the beginning, but less of them?

Additionally, right now, how many shares have been issued, how many have been sold, and how many are held in reserve? Those shares which have not been issued aren't receiving dividends, are they? This goes on to my next point.

Dividends paid on unissued shares after the early-adopter phase will be retained by AMC and added to AMC's growth and expansion fund above until the shares are issued.

So basically, you're diluting the dividends across both issued and unissued shares? First, from my limited reading, unissued/unsold shares don't receive a dividend, so it seems that proper accounting/shareholder practices are not being followed (Right now, 40 million shares have been issued, but have 40 million been sold, and thus eligible for dividends? And then when you issue another 60 million, you'll be diluting the dividend even more so. To even get close to the kinds of dividends other companies are seeing (0.01 btc/share), you'd have to mine something like 40,000 bitcoins per week, even more when it's 100 million shares.

The first time I get a piece of the pie will be after a year of work (May 2014), when the rest of the 60M are issued. At that time, more 20M can be sold to investors, and I retain the remaining 40M.

Again, what's the rationale for this? Why are you not making money on the shares now? Additionally, when you issue those 60 million shares, other investors are going to be screwed because the dividend will be split across 100 million, not 40 million.

Engineering Firm quote for Avalon machines: http://axs.net/AMC/SB-Prototype-Quote.jpg
eASIC NDA: http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0001.jpg and http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0002.jpg

As nice as these are, they don't really tell us much. Why all the secrecy? Why the NDA in the first place? Why not give this thing some bloody legitimacy instead of hiding behind a 'oh I'm sorry, but we *really* can't tell you all the details'. People are losing confidence because you're being so secretive!

Roughy, AMC takes care of the chips, VMC takes care of the machines:
- AMC develops the chip, pays the chip's NRE and sells the chip in bulk to customers (using VMC as intermediary).
- VMC uses AMC's chip (or any other chips) and builds bitcoin miners, paying a royalty cost to AMC whenever its IP is used.

Chip sales: AMC holds IP rights on the Fast-Hash-ONE chips, so AMC contracts with VMC the following services: (a) the representation services to negotiate chip production with eASIC and (b) the re-selling of AMC's chips in bulk. AMC also guarantees chip exclusivity to VMC, so that AMC won't negotiate a chip supply contract to any other bitcoin systems manufacturer. AMC gets 70% back from the profits on the sale of bulk chips, while VMC gets 30%. All of VMC's expenses, including representation, chip stock management and re-shipping expenses to final customers are taken from their 30% profit.

System sales: AMC also allows VMC to buy chips directly from eASIC at the lowest cost, for the manufacturing of bitcoin mining systems. On every sale of these systems or parts of it that contain AMC chips or IP, AMC receives a 10% royalty fee from the total gross sales revenue. Example: if a customer purchases a system for ฿100, AMC receives ฿10, whatever the profit margins for VMC are.

Jesus this is complicated... First off, why not just merge the companies, rather than messing around with something like this convoluted set up?

Second off, how is VMC funded? Where does it get its cashflow from?

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Fourth, AMC sells chips to VMC, VMC then makes full mining systems (I'm guessing like the jalapenos etc), VMC then sells them on? I get the 10% royalty fee, but where does the other 90% go to? To VMC? And that's owned by who? So AMC does all the heavy lifting, sells its chips for a fee (presumably all of that profit goes 100% to AMC), and then basically only gets 10% royalty fee for something they could sell themselves for 100BTC and get 100% of the profit? You can see why that kind of sucks.  

Ugh, my head hurts trying to filter through all the BS, FUD, techno-babble and nonsense in this thread, just to get at some proper bloody answers. I should be entirely open and say that I have invested in this company, but I'm doing my 'due diligence' after the fact, so shame on me perhaps, but nevertheless, there are some serious gaps here that need addressed asap, preferably in a easy to digest summary. I often get the feeling that in anything bitcoin related, people hide behind the razzle-dazzle of vocabulary and jargon. K.I.S.S.

These are personally reasonable questions that I would love to see answers for.  I personally do not beleive in the FUD, but I see where the trolls are coming from.  The way everything is structured is WAY too complicated.

Second off, how is VMC funded? Where does it get its cashflow from?

This to me is the most important question.  I'm assuming that it's coming directly from AMC shareholders, which is why I'm merely holding what I have, and keeping any potential investments on reserve.  For whatever reason, Ken feels the need to keep the companies separate, which it is his right to do so.  I personally believe that he should have a separate IPO for VMC if he is going to continue acting as if they are two completely separate entities.

[auto2nr1]

Until at least May 2014, on the initial 40M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 20M can be sold to investors.
In May 2014, or when 0.0005 is payed by share, whichever happens later, an extra 60M are created, for the final total of 100M. On these remaining 60M, a minimum of 20M are retained for growth and expansion and a maximum of 40M can be sold to investors, with a 40M being retained by AMC/Ken.

Right, but *why* 100 million shares? This is a ridiculous number of shares compared to other securities (I mean, ASICminer has 40000 shares, a whole order of magnitude lower). This will just dilute existing shares, make it more difficult to sell shares (because there's always the possibility of flooding the market), and make a high valuation for the company so much harder to justify.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying time scale as capital is required to complete the project. Any remaining shares not included in the IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

Why not IPO all the shares at the same time, right at the beginning, but less of them?

Additionally, right now, how many shares have been issued, how many have been sold, and how many are held in reserve? Those shares which have not been issued aren't receiving dividends, are they? This goes on to my next point.

Dividends paid on unissued shares after the early-adopter phase will be retained by AMC and added to AMC's growth and expansion fund above until the shares are issued.

So basically, you're diluting the dividends across both issued and unissued shares? First, from my limited reading, unissued/unsold shares don't receive a dividend, so it seems that proper accounting/shareholder practices are not being followed (Right now, 40 million shares have been issued, but have 40 million been sold, and thus eligible for dividends? And then when you issue another 60 million, you'll be diluting the dividend even more so. To even get close to the kinds of dividends other companies are seeing (0.01 btc/share), you'd have to mine something like 40,000 bitcoins per week, even more when it's 100 million shares.

The first time I get a piece of the pie will be after a year of work (May 2014), when the rest of the 60M are issued. At that time, more 20M can be sold to investors, and I retain the remaining 40M.

Again, what's the rationale for this? Why are you not making money on the shares now? Additionally, when you issue those 60 million shares, other investors are going to be screwed because the dividend will be split across 100 million, not 40 million.

Engineering Firm quote for Avalon machines: http://axs.net/AMC/SB-Prototype-Quote.jpg
eASIC NDA: http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0001.jpg and http://axs.net/AMC/eAsic-NDA0002.jpg

As nice as these are, they don't really tell us much. Why all the secrecy? Why the NDA in the first place? Why not give this thing some bloody legitimacy instead of hiding behind a 'oh I'm sorry, but we *really* can't tell you all the details'. People are losing confidence because you're being so secretive!

Roughy, AMC takes care of the chips, VMC takes care of the machines:
- AMC develops the chip, pays the chip's NRE and sells the chip in bulk to customers (using VMC as intermediary).
- VMC uses AMC's chip (or any other chips) and builds bitcoin miners, paying a royalty cost to AMC whenever its IP is used.

Chip sales: AMC holds IP rights on the Fast-Hash-ONE chips, so AMC contracts with VMC the following services: (a) the representation services to negotiate chip production with eASIC and (b) the re-selling of AMC's chips in bulk. AMC also guarantees chip exclusivity to VMC, so that AMC won't negotiate a chip supply contract to any other bitcoin systems manufacturer. AMC gets 70% back from the profits on the sale of bulk chips, while VMC gets 30%. All of VMC's expenses, including representation, chip stock management and re-shipping expenses to final customers are taken from their 30% profit.

System sales: AMC also allows VMC to buy chips directly from eASIC at the lowest cost, for the manufacturing of bitcoin mining systems. On every sale of these systems or parts of it that contain AMC chips or IP, AMC receives a 10% royalty fee from the total gross sales revenue. Example: if a customer purchases a system for ฿100, AMC receives ฿10, whatever the profit margins for VMC are.

Jesus this is complicated... First off, why not just merge the companies, rather than messing around with something like this convoluted set up?

Second off, how is VMC funded? Where does it get its cashflow from?

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Fourth, AMC sells chips to VMC, VMC then makes full mining systems (I'm guessing like the jalapenos etc), VMC then sells them on? I get the 10% royalty fee, but where does the other 90% go to? To VMC? And that's owned by who? So AMC does all the heavy lifting, sells its chips for a fee (presumably all of that profit goes 100% to AMC), and then basically only gets 10% royalty fee for something they could sell themselves for 100BTC and get 100% of the profit? You can see why that kind of sucks. 

Ugh, my head hurts trying to filter through all the BS, FUD, techno-babble and nonsense in this thread, just to get at some proper bloody answers. I should be entirely open and say that I have invested in this company, but I'm doing my 'due diligence' after the fact, so shame on me perhaps, but nevertheless, there are some serious gaps here that need addressed asap, preferably in a easy to digest summary. I often get the feeling that in anything bitcoin related, people hide behind the razzle-dazzle of vocabulary and jargon. K.I.S.S.

+1

I have been asking the same kinds of questions. We need answers ASAP Ken.

[John818]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

[superduh]

this is one big mess of a company and it's "shareholders"

[SoylentCreek]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

Unfortunately, we can't.  These are just the ebbs and flows of the forum.

[ChefBorjan]

How do we overcome the issue that whoever visits Ken and reports back will be accused of being in cahoots?

I've been thinking about this, and unfortunately I don't see a true solution. Maybe if you swore in a priest?

But seriously, everything that can be done can be simply shot down with 'well you thought we would ask that so you planned it'. I think it might have to just be a case where enough evidence is provided so that unless you wear a tin foil hat you are reasonably satisfied...

[lewicki]

Right, but *why* 100 million shares? This is a ridiculous number of shares compared to other securities (I mean, ASICminer has 40000 shares, a whole order of magnitude lower). This will just dilute existing shares, make it more difficult to sell shares (because there's always the possibility of flooding the market), and make a high valuation for the company so much harder to justify.

60 million of those shares will never be sold. only 20m at the moment and 40m total will eventually be  on the "market". ASICminer sold their IPO shares for .1 BTC correct? .1BTCx400,000=40,000BTC.

Why not IPO all the shares at the same time, right at the beginning, but less of them?

Additionally, right now, how many shares have been issued, how many have been sold, and how many are held in reserve? Those shares which have not been issued aren't receiving dividends, are they? This goes on to my next point.

Why raise money that AMC did not know if they could use. The receieved good news on the eASIC chip, then released shares to raise fund for chip production. putting the cart before the horse is not a good idea usually.

So basically, you're diluting the dividends across both issued and unissued shares?

40m shares issued at the moment, 40 million are recieving dividends. 20m shares gurantees profits are being used to update hardware, etc. Every company needs to reinvest profits to keep up int he world.

Again, what's the rationale for this? Why are you not making money on the shares now? Additionally, when you issue those 60 million shares, other investors are going to be screwed because the dividend will be split across 100 million, not 40 million.

Show of good faith probably. Regardless, I'm satisfied with that decision.

As nice as these are, they don't really tell us much. Why all the secrecy? Why the NDA in the first place? Why not give this thing some bloody legitimacy instead of hiding behind a 'oh I'm sorry, but we *really* can't tell you all the details'. People are losing confidence because you're being so secretive!

This is how it works. It's risky (I'm not saying it isn't). You have to build trust to gain it. Avalons have arrive, people ahve called easic and confirmed they are under NDA with AMC. We will see what happens when August rolls around.

[lewicki]

Second off, how is VMC funded? Where does it get its cashflow from?

This to me is the most important question.  I'm assuming that it's coming directly from AMC shareholders, which is why I'm merely holding what I have, and keeping any potential investments on reserve.  For whatever reason, Ken feels the need to keep the companies separate, which it is his right to do so.  I personally believe that he should have a separate IPO for VMC if he is going to continue acting as if they are two completely separate entities.

Ken mentioned that he was considering releasing an IPO for VMC to get funding. The money from AMC gets directly passed through VMC to eASIC to pay for the chips. VMC will be supplied with money from VMC going public or Ken's own money.