[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[FloatesMcgoates]

Great work tonight guys!  I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be.  While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC?  Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure.  This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way.  Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:

Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.

Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming.  Great job guys!

I think I explained the loophole already. There are two issues, one pertaining to real life money and the other to us as bitcoin investors.

The real life situation is easy to resolve, Kenneth owns both VMC and AMC so to combine them into one entity should be relatively easy.

On the bitcoin end, Kenneth can claim that AMC no longer has any profit because it was bought out, thus he can stop paying dividends. Then, he can offer users a 1-1 swap of AMC shares for VMC shares followed by freezing of the AMC asset. This will make everyone with shares in AMC swap their shares for VMC, finishing the elimination of AMC.

How this would be accomplished fairly for shareholders and at a profit for Ken has been outlined by myself in previous posts, which Kenneth seems to give approval for.

[SoylentCreek]

Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC.  After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares.  How does that sound?

Sounds like an opportunity to game the system.  What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert?

No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want.  We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC.
AMC keeps trading, it is just a chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC.

So, AMC shareholders are entitled to 10% of the Gross profits of AMC sales.  I'm assuming that VMC shareholders would be entitled to a much larger percentage of VMC profits, yes?  Again, I have said before that I am fine with the companies being split, but I feel like we should have the opportunity to buy into both companies if that is the case, and allow fundraising to take place within each company individually.  None of this, "lending money to VMC or vice-versa" nonsense.  I think that in its inception, you had a rather good idea, but did not think it through all the way.  Another thing, for the love of god, please allow the option to change up the description and or contract like every other offering on Bitfunder.  There is no need to reinvent an already rolling wheel.

I would like one entity to exist to not have to go back and forth in regards to AMC/VMC and who owns what and the percentages of profits. This is just too much headache and we have to simplify. But if two entities must exist one solution in AMC/VMC existing together is by VMC owning shares in AMC. VMC can be a division within AMC that runs sales and mining operations on a day to day basis. The VMC division will be funded by the shares sold to VMC. VMC will be paid in dividends and this will be an incentive to make more sales and to mine faster for more profits. VMC wins and can support Ken and his team. At the same time AMC shareholders win because Ken and his team will do whatever they can in their power to generate more profit for the security.

I believe that is the plan at the moment.  I just wanted to make sure to ask, in case Ken decided to launch a VMC offering, and not go through with the AMC acquisition.  I agree, I would prefer everything under one banner (AMC or VMC).  What am I doing?!?!  I need to go buy more shares now. 

[Exocyst]

Anyone else been snacking more shares at these prices in speculation of this merger?

EDIT: I pushed the price too high btct.co now I have to wait a while.

That is either smart or foolish ... becareful

I suppose you may be right, so don't buy any shares 

[bigdude]

I think I explained the loophole already. There are two issues, one pertaining to real life money and the other to us as bitcoin investors.

The real life situation is easy to resolve, Kenneth owns both VMC and AMC so to combine them into one entity should be relatively easy.

On the bitcoin end, Kenneth can claim that AMC no longer has any profit because it was bought out, thus he can stop paying dividends. Then, he can offer users a 1-1 swap of AMC shares for VMC shares followed by freezing of the AMC asset. This will make everyone with shares in AMC swap their shares for VMC, finishing the elimination of AMC.

How this would be accomplished fairly for shareholders and at a profit for Ken has been outlined by myself in previous posts, which Kenneth seems to give approval for.

This would work

[SoylentCreek]

Great work tonight guys!  I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be.  While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC?  Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure.  This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way.  Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:

Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.

Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming.  Great job guys!

I think I explained the loophole already. There are two issues, one pertaining to real life money and the other to us as bitcoin investors.

The real life situation is easy to resolve, Kenneth owns both VMC and AMC so to combine them into one entity should be relatively easy.

On the bitcoin end, Kenneth can claim that AMC no longer has any profit because it was bought out, thus he can stop paying dividends. Then, he can offer users a 1-1 swap of AMC shares for VMC shares followed by freezing of the AMC asset. This will make everyone with shares in AMC swap their shares for VMC, finishing the elimination of AMC.

How this would be accomplished fairly for shareholders and at a profit for Ken has been outlined by myself in previous posts, which Kenneth seems to give approval for.

Very good!  FM, I mean this wholeheartedly when I say that I am thrilled you have come on board.  It's apparent that Ken is going to need all the help he can get from posters like you if we are going to see this succeed at the end.  Just one quick question, how would he handle the holdouts.  Surely, there will be a few who decide not to trade in 100% of their AMC for VMC.  Would they eventually become liquidated at a certain time, and the funds would then be sent to the holder's account?

[SoylentCreek]

Anyone else been snacking more shares at these prices in speculation of this merger?

EDIT: I pushed the price too high btct.co now I have to wait a while.

That is either smart or foolish ... becareful

I suppose you may be right, so don't buy any shares 

YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO FOOL!  *goes to buy more AMC*

[TheSwede75]

Gonna be some time yet before we know what ends up being the final word in this. With the drop in BTC for example, how has that effected plans?

[oaxaca]

Just one quick question, how would he handle the holdouts.  Surely, there will be a few who decide not to trade in 100% of their AMC for VMC.  Would they eventually become liquidated at a certain time, and the funds would then be sent to the holder's account?

I asked this question about uh, oh, 3 pages ago.

[FloatesMcgoates]

Great work tonight guys!  I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be.  While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC?  Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure.  This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way.  Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:

Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.

Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming.  Great job guys!

I think I explained the loophole already. There are two issues, one pertaining to real life money and the other to us as bitcoin investors.

The real life situation is easy to resolve, Kenneth owns both VMC and AMC so to combine them into one entity should be relatively easy.

On the bitcoin end, Kenneth can claim that AMC no longer has any profit because it was bought out, thus he can stop paying dividends. Then, he can offer users a 1-1 swap of AMC shares for VMC shares followed by freezing of the AMC asset. This will make everyone with shares in AMC swap their shares for VMC, finishing the elimination of AMC.

How this would be accomplished fairly for shareholders and at a profit for Ken has been outlined by myself in previous posts, which Kenneth seems to give approval for.

Very good!  FM, I mean this wholeheartedly when I say that I am thrilled you have come on board.  It's apparent that Ken is going to need all the help he can get from posters like you if we are going to see this succeed at the end.  Just one quick question, how would he handle the holdouts.  Surely, there will be a few who decide not to trade in 100% of their AMC for VMC.  Would they eventually become liquidated at a certain time, and the funds would then be sent to the holder's account?

From a shareholder point of view, it would make no sense to be a holdout. But lets say a few unknowing people out there do not exchange their AMC shares to VMC.

1.) They would be stuck with AMC shares but cannot do anything with them because Kenneth has frozen the AMC asset
2.) They would realize their AMC share by itself is worthless because dividends are no longer coming in
3.) They CAN (and should) swap their shares at any time for VMC shares

If they do not swap, then they would be the only ones that are negatively impacted. Neither Kenneth, you, nor I have any incentive in forcing these people to swap for VMC shares. Thus nothing actually needs to be done with people who hold out.

[SoylentCreek]

Great work tonight guys!  I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be.  While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC?  Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure.  This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way.  Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:

Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.

Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming.  Great job guys!

I think I explained the loophole already. There are two issues, one pertaining to real life money and the other to us as bitcoin investors.

The real life situation is easy to resolve, Kenneth owns both VMC and AMC so to combine them into one entity should be relatively easy.

On the bitcoin end, Kenneth can claim that AMC no longer has any profit because it was bought out, thus he can stop paying dividends. Then, he can offer users a 1-1 swap of AMC shares for VMC shares followed by freezing of the AMC asset. This will make everyone with shares in AMC swap their shares for VMC, finishing the elimination of AMC.

How this would be accomplished fairly for shareholders and at a profit for Ken has been outlined by myself in previous posts, which Kenneth seems to give approval for.

Very good!  FM, I mean this wholeheartedly when I say that I am thrilled you have come on board.  It's apparent that Ken is going to need all the help he can get from posters like you if we are going to see this succeed at the end.  Just one quick question, how would he handle the holdouts.  Surely, there will be a few who decide not to trade in 100% of their AMC for VMC.  Would they eventually become liquidated at a certain time, and the funds would then be sent to the holder's account?

From a shareholder point of view, it would make no sense to be a holdout. But lets say a few unknowing people out there do not exchange their AMC shares to VMC.

1.) They would be stuck with AMC shares but cannot do anything with them because Kenneth has frozen the AMC asset
2.) They would realize their AMC share by itself is worthless because dividends are no longer coming in
3.) They CAN (and should) swap their shares at any time for VMC shares

If they do not swap, then they would be the only ones that are negatively impacted. Neither Kenneth, you, nor I have any incentive in forcing these people to swap for VMC shares. Thus nothing actually needs to be done with people who hold out.

Makes sense to me.  I guess I should have followed my question up with what would be a reasonable time frame to give people to swap out there shares?  Just wondering, if for some weird chance someone logs in a year from now to see if their AMC investment has gone anywhere, and they no longer see AMC listed.

[Exocyst]

AMC volume has really picked up in the last hour, what happened?
 

[SoylentCreek]

AMC volume has really picked up in the last hour, what happened?
 

Democracy.

[oaxaca]

AMC volume has really picked up in the last hour, what happened?
 

Democracy.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49."
  -  Thomas Jefferson

What happened on this thread was proof that 50 heads are better than 1.

[Exocyst]

I don't know who posted these options on BitFunder, but they may want to take them down while a potential AMC/VMC merger is being discussed:

 Call Option (Option to buy shares later)
Strike Price    Amount    Option Price    Break    End Date   
0.001750 BTC    5,000    0.000160 BTC    Yes    2013-07-30 23:13:54

[forensick]

Really progress Ken, merge of Amc with Vmc could make your business even bigger... need to save coins for new ipo 

[auto2nr1]

Great work tonight guys!  I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be.  While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC?  Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure.  This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way.  Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:

Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.

Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming.  Great job guys!

I hope that AMC/VMC merging will happen so that gets the biggest issue out of the way. My next suggestion would be for us to work on a capped shares in the new security. We should have the shares capped at a reasonable number to avoid diluting the shares anytime in the future. This way the shares can continue to be valuable. If Ken can flood the market with massive amounts of shares at anytime this will dilute the investors shares and dividends will decrease. I don't know what the numbers of shares would be the best but would like to hear back from the community to discuss this matter.

[forensick]

Great work tonight guys!  I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be.  While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC?  Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure.  This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way.  Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:

Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.

Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming.  Great job guys!

I hope that AMC/VMC merging will happen so that gets the biggest issue out of the way. My next suggestion would be for us to work on a capped shares in the new security. We should have the shares capped at a reasonable number to avoid diluting the shares anytime in the future. This way the shares can continue to be valuable. If Ken can flood the market with massive amounts of shares at anytime this will dilute the investors shares and dividends will decrease. I don't know what the numbers of shares would be the best but would like to hear back from the community to discuss this matter.

Number of shares should be enought to cover capex with no dilution possible without shareholders voting

[Rodyland]

To the person asking about what happens to the AMC holdouts if VMC buys all the AMC shares:

In other stock exchanges, depending on the place of listing, there is such a thing as compulsory acquisition.  Once someone owns upwards of 90-95% of the stock of a company, they can force the remaining shareholders to sell. 

If VMC were to list on favourable terms, offering a 1-for-1 share swap of AMC shares for VMC shares, then I have no doubt that a majority of AMC shareholders would take the offer.

I'm not sure what could be done about the sell walls of AMC shares on bitfunder and btct.  Maybe he could just sell those shares to VMC, say 1-for-1 for VMC shares.   And then AMC could sell those VMC shares on-market, and because AMC is majority owned by VMC, the proceeds go to VMC.

I don't know, it's all a bit murky because AMC shareholders aren't actually shareholders - we bought a right to a fraction of the profits of the company called AMC.

No doubt the lawyers need to get involved.

[Vbs]

So, great news today!

Offering a 1-for-1 share swap looks good, provided there is enough time to do it (2-3 months?), as I'm sure there are a lot of people who bought AMC options already.

[Vbs]

I hope that AMC/VMC merging will happen so that gets the biggest issue out of the way. My next suggestion would be for us to work on a capped shares in the new security. We should have the shares capped at a reasonable number to avoid diluting the shares anytime in the future. This way the shares can continue to be valuable. If Ken can flood the market with massive amounts of shares at anytime this will dilute the investors shares and dividends will decrease. I don't know what the numbers of shares would be the best but would like to hear back from the community to discuss this matter.

It's not that linear.

You are only explicitly diluting existing shareholder value if there are new shares issued with no respective profits from their issuing, i.e., the cake is the same, but now you just hold a smaller slice of it.

If new shares are issued to investors purchasing them, then there are more slices to the cake, but the cake is now bigger too, as those shares were paid for.