[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[kslaughter]

Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.

Does this make sense?

No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps.

If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC.


The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps.

I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025?  Tell me how to do that please.

1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks
2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC
        - (Currently at 1,567,351)
3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time.

Ok, I will keep this in mind.

[SoylentCreek]

Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC.  After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares.  How does that sound?

Sounds like an opportunity to game the system.  What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert?

No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want.  We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC.
AMC keeps trading, it is just a chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC.

So, AMC shareholders are entitled to 10% of the Gross profits of AMC sales.  I'm assuming that VMC shareholders would be entitled to a much larger percentage of VMC profits, yes?  Again, I have said before that I am fine with the companies being split, but I feel like we should have the opportunity to buy into both companies if that is the case, and allow fundraising to take place within each company individually.  None of this, "lending money to VMC or vice-versa" nonsense.  I think that in its inception, you had a rather good idea, but did not think it through all the way.  Another thing, for the love of god, please allow the option to change up the description and or contract like every other offering on Bitfunder.  There is no need to reinvent an already rolling wheel.

[Exocyst]

Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.

Does this make sense?

No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps.

If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC.


The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps.

I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025?  Tell me how to do that please.

1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks
2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC
        - (Currently at 1,567,351)
3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time.

Ok, I will keep this in mind.

I assume that the newly formed VMC security will have the duties and obligations of AMC with regards to shareholders, excepting the operating costs will be deducted from income before distribution of dividends

[kslaughter]

Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC.  After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares.  How does that sound?

Sounds like an opportunity to game the system.  What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert?

No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want.  We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC.
AMC keeps trading, it is just a chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC.

So, AMC shareholders are entitled to 10% of the Gross profits of AMC sales.  I'm assuming that VMC shareholders would be entitled to a much larger percentage of VMC profits, yes?  Again, I have said before that I am fine with the companies being split, but I feel like we should have the opportunity to buy into both companies if that is the case, and allow fundraising to take place within each company individually.  None of this, "lending money to VMC or vice-versa" nonsense.  I think that in its inception, you had a rather good idea, but did not think it through all the way.  Another thing, for the love of god, please allow the option to change up the description and or contract like every other offering on Bitfunder.  There is no need to reinvent an already rolling wheel.

I have already been working on a VMC offering and it has that in it already.  Learn a little from the AMC offering.

[SoylentCreek]

Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.

Does this make sense?

No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps.

If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC.


The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps.

I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025?  Tell me how to do that please.

1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks
2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC
        - (Currently at 1,567,351)
3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I really like this idea.  However, for this to work, trading will need to be halted on the AMC side of things.  Otherwise, you'll have people buying super cheap shares of AMC, and then trading them in for possibly more expensive shares of VMC.  Am I wrong in my assessment?

[kslaughter]

Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.

Does this make sense?

No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps.

If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC.


The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps.

I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025?  Tell me how to do that please.

1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks
2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC
        - (Currently at 1,567,351)
3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time.

Ok, I will keep this in mind.

I assume that the newly formed VMC security will have the duties and obligations of AMC with regards to shareholders, excepting the operating costs will be deducted from income before distribution of dividends

Yes, very much like the AMC offering, but different in the fact VMC has employees, and a lot of operating expenses which have to be paid to operate.

[FloatesMcgoates]

Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.

Does this make sense?

No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps.

If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC.


The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps.

I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025?  Tell me how to do that please.

1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks
2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC
        - (Currently at 1,567,351)
3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I really like this idea.  However, for this to work, trading will need to be halted on the AMC side of things.  Otherwise, you'll have people buying super cheap shares of AMC, and then trading them in for possibly more expensive shares of VMC.  Am I wrong in my assessment?

Supposedly, one of the goals for the swap would be to encourage investors to buy cheap AMC shares all the way to and then through the .0025 wall, raising capital for Kenneth.

[kslaughter]

Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.

Does this make sense?

No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps.

If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC.


The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps.

I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025?  Tell me how to do that please.

1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks
2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC
        - (Currently at 1,567,351)
3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I really like this idea.  However, for this to work, trading will need to be halted on the AMC side of things.  Otherwise, you'll have people buying super cheap shares of AMC, and then trading them in for possibly more expensive shares of VMC.  Am I wrong in my assessment?

Yes, that might happen.  Might not be a bad thing as AMC needs to raise capital fast to pay the NRE soon.

[kslaughter]

Ken,
Could you lock the VMC IPO price at whatever the value of AMC is when trading is halted? I think this would be the safest way: then re-calculate how many shares you need to release in a VMC ipo to meet upcoming obligations. This way currently held AMC shares transferred to VMC wouldn't be de-valued by a lower IPO. You could still keep shares back for future development stages.

Does this make sense?

No, I think the idea I had posted earlier makes alot of sense and will be the fairest in terms of price swaps.

If we simply froze right now, people who bought above current market price will lose and kenneth will have to do a fair amount of math to figure out how to fairly distribute shares of VMC.


The simplest way to do this is to announce that VMC will purchase all of AMC's stock at .0025, prompting the market to react and move AMC to .0025 and then market forces will by itself normalize price at .0025. Once this equillibrium has been reached, Kenneth can halt trading and initiate the 1 for 1 swaps.

I don't know how VMC can purchase AMC shares at .0025?  Tell me how to do that please.

1.) Open VMC for trading, but do not put any asks
2.) Put a bid wall at .0025 for the remaining shares at the current .0025 wall for AMC
        - (Currently at 1,567,351)
3.) Announce that in say 1-2 weeks time, you will allow users to exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC, and that trading for AMC will be closing after this time.

I just wanted to chime in and say that I really like this idea.  However, for this to work, trading will need to be halted on the AMC side of things.  Otherwise, you'll have people buying super cheap shares of AMC, and then trading them in for possibly more expensive shares of VMC.  Am I wrong in my assessment?

Supposedly, one of the goals for the swap would be to encourage investors to buy cheap AMC shares all the way to and then through the .0025 wall, raising capital for Kenneth.

Yes, this is what I am thinking would happen.

[bigdude]

I just came up with a idea to solve this problem.

I will create an VMC offering, then VMC will purchase AMC.  There you that is the solution.  Tell me what you think.

How will VMC purchase AMC? Will it buy back all the shares of AMC?


But if you did create a VMC offering, and then unite VMC with AMC under one roof, then yes this is exactly what we are all looking for. Again, it is just really important for current shareholders and potential investors like myself to see these two companies merged into one.

Yes, VMC would start purchasing AMC shares until it has all of them.

There is no need for this.

Here a simple way to do it with one announcement:

1. VMC has been shutdown
2. AMC will now be doing the mining AND sales of chips/hardware itself

Done!


Note: I know that is simplistic, but really, there is no need to complicate matters, keep them simple on purpose. Now, in the real world, you may have signed some documentation with eASIC etc ... but you can re-sign them as AMC.

That will not work!  I am sorry. 

Because??

[FloatesMcgoates]

You can stipulate that you will purchase a certain amount of VMC shares at a number higher than .0025 only AFTER the wall at .0025 has been eaten through.



One way this can be encouraged + math:

Currently, there are 1,567,351 shares in the .0025 wall, equaling 3918.3775 BTC

Say that you offered to buy 1 million shares of VMC at .0026, this will cost you 2600 BTC.

In order to gain your originally planned 3918.3775 BTC, add additional shares to your wall - 1040000 worth of shares.


Thus the new wall will be 2,607,351 shares at .0025, with your promise that you will buy 1,000,000 shares of VMC at .0026 encouraging people to buy.

Of course offer 1-1 AMC to VMC swaps.

Then, freeze AMC after say a week after the wall is gone.

[kslaughter]

You can stipulate that you will purchase a certain amount of VMC shares at a number higher than .0025 only AFTER the wall at .0025 has been eaten through.



One way this can be encouraged + math:

Currently, there are 1,567,351 shares in the .0025 wall, equaling 3918.3775 BTC

Say that you offered to buy 1 million shares of VMC at .0026, this will cost you 2600 BTC.

In order to gain your originally planned 3918.3775 BTC, add additional shares to your wall - 1040000 worth of shares.


Thus the new wall will be 2,607,351 shares at .0025, with your promise that you will buy 1,000,000 shares of VMC at .0026 encouraging people to buy.

Of course offer 1-1 AMC to VMC swaps.

Then, freeze AMC after say a week after the wall is gone.

Great, You guys keep the ideas coming, I am going to bed as I have to get up early tomorrow and meet with my management team.

[Exocyst]

Anyone else been snacking more shares at these prices in speculation of this merger?

EDIT: I pushed the price too high btct.co now I have to wait a while.

[bigdude]

Great, You guys keep the ideas coming, I am going to bed as I have to get up early tomorrow and meet with my management team.

Sleep tight.

And thank you for having some interaction with your shareholders ... a welcome change

[bigdude]

Anyone else been snacking more shares at these prices in speculation of this merger?

EDIT: I pushed the price too high btct.co now I have to wait a while.

That is either smart or foolish ... becareful

[FloatesMcgoates]

Anyone else been snacking more shares at these prices in speculation of this merger?

EDIT: I pushed the price too high btct.co now I have to wait a while.

The conversation Kenneth just had with us convinced me to actually buy several thousand shares. It is nice knowing that Kenneth is actually a very responsive CEO and is willing to listen to criticism and change plans to adapt.

The VMC-AMC merger is PURE VALUE ADDED to the current AMC stock, and the share price should go significantly upward.

[ronaldlee0917]

I am glad you finally listen to people's advice and merge AMC and VMC.
I keep my promise and buyback some shares.
I hope you will handle the merge carefully, otherwise I see it would cause more catastrophe.
Anyway, good luck, there gotta be a lot of work to merge the two.

[auto2nr1]

Third, why does AMC need VMC to re-sell its chips in bulk? Why can't AMC handle that itself? So, you bulk-sell chips to VMC, VMC sells them on, AMC gets 70% of the profits, VMC 30%? Why do it like that? Why  not just have AMC/VMC together, AMC sells the chips and it receives 100% of the profits from these sales?

Let me just ask you  a simple question.  How would AMC sells chips itself?  Explain to me how that would be done?

Just like how Avalon, BFL or BitFury is selling their chips. AMC's website (we should get one made), group buys on the forum, website, eBay, BitMit or through authorized resellers.

Here is why AMC can not sell the chips.  There are no provisions for employees, unless you hire 4 at the same time.  There are no provisions for any kind of sales expenses one you hire the 4 employees.  There are no provisions for any kinda of hosting services.  There are no provisions for hiring someone to develop a website to sell the chips.  Even if you hired the 4 employees, the expenses are limited to a 10% maximum.  So please tell me how this would be done.

Cool, you posted that 7 seconds before my post above

You are making everything way too complicated.

How is ASICMINER able to do everything under one company? But somehow, you think it's an impossibility

https://asicminer.info/what-is-asicminer/

ASICMINER has issued 400,000 shares, and is contractually obligated to never dilute them. 163,962 of the shares are publicly owned, originally purchased during ASICMINER’s IPO on the now-defunct Global Stock Exchange (GLBSE). They were sold for 0.1 Bitcoins per share, to fund the development of the hardware, the setup of the datacenters, and all other operating expenses. The remaining 236,038 shares are owned by the corporation known as Bitfountain, which is registered in China, and operates the mining datacenters, hardware sales, share transfers, and all the other day-to-day dealings of ASICMINER.

Obviously you will have to do everything you just outlined at some point in order to get VMC to sell the chips, right? Why not just call VMC AMC's hardware division and merge the 2 companies into AMC?

The general feeling I am getting is that most people including myself are getting past the "AMC might be a scam" point to more of a "The way Kenneth Slaughter has set these 2 companies up is not optimal for the shareholder" viewpoint.

VMC becoming AMC's division or vice versa might work out. Just like how Bitfountain and ASICMINER is under one roof. Bitfountain holds 236,038 shares out of the 400,00 which is used to pay the owners and for Bitfountain and to run both entities under one umbrella such as day to day operations, mining and making sales on hardware. There might be a way for VMC and AMC to coexist under these terms. 20m shares can be allocated for the VMC division which will run the day to day operations and make sales of the chips/machines. 20m shares for the investors to be sold. 20m to growth and development? The numbers can be discussed and changed but it might be fair it we do a 20/20/20 to make everything equal. All profits from sales/mining will be divided equally.

Another issues is the dilution of shares. This security should issue a set amount of shares and should be obligated to never dilute them. This way it keeps investors happy and dividends consistent without major changes by flooding the market with new shares.

Ugh, more obfuscation!

Why are unsold shares being given dividends? If the unsold/unissued shares are treasury shares, they shouldn't get dividends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasury_stock). 85% of dividends (should this be 'profit'?) being kept for reinvestment? I thought that's why shares were sold in the first place? To raise capital? Having read this, http://www.sharesexplained.com/shares-explained, it seems that it's to raise funds for capital expansion/start up, but it sometimes looks as though it's more to 'reward the owner', which is odd, given that the company has barely even started.

If the value of the company is BTC6000, then it's worth ~$600k. But you've issued 40 million shares, so any coins mined at the moment are split up over 40 million shares, soon to be 100 million shares in a year. Call me crazy, but I don't see how that's in the best interests of investors.

Unsold shares should not be given dividends. Only shares that have been sold should be given profits. Nothing else to say here. Thalum pretty much covered it.

If that's the case, then it would be worthwhile talking with the mods/staff at bitfunder and seeing what, if anything can be done. As I'm sure you've noticed, it's something that almost everyone here is clamouring for, and it would go a long way to soothing much of the craziness that has been going on in this thread over the past four days.

+1  I really hope that Ken will consider doing this.  I personally think that this is what is holding things back, and the trolls are eating us alive over it.

I as well as other investors would probably start investing more money into AMC on top of what we have already invested. It would also attract new investors to hope on board and join us as they would see it is a fair investment for the issuer and and the shareholder.

Ok, Let say we merge AMC and VMC, who is going to run it?

Ken I was happy with you running things before. I still am.

Tell us what resources you need, I'm sure we can work something out. We all want this to succeed.

Ken would continue to run the business with his team (VMC). Just like ASICMINER has a team (BitFountain) to run the business that is generated by the profits from the dividends. This would keep the day to day operation running and once again all profits from sales and mining would be divided equally in shares sold/owned.

[SoylentCreek]

Great work tonight guys!  I think we are finally on the way towards where we need to be.  While we are waiting to hear back from Ken, could someone with a legal background look at the current AMC offering on Bitfunder to see if there is any possibility and or loophole that would allow an acquisition of VMC by AMC?  Ken has insisted that as it currently stands, there is no way for that to be done, but it would not hurt to run over it to be sure.  This would certainly be the easiest way to move forward on getting everything under one roof, but if Ken can legally not modify the contract, then we will have to go about it a different way.  Currently, the plan that is being drawn up is as following:

Ken will create a VMC offering at some point (when is anyone's guess).
Trading will continue on both offerings, AMC and VMC.
At some point, AMC holders will have the option to trade AMC shares in for an equal number of VMC shares.
We can assume that when the trade options are made available, Ken will officially announce VMC's acquisition of AMC, and will set a closing date.

Ken is still looking for feedback and suggestions from the community, so please keep them coming.  Great job guys!

[auto2nr1]

Ok, I create a VMC offering, AMC shareholder can exchange 1 share of AMC for 1 share of VMC.  After the exchange period VMC will continue when
possible to purchase AMC shares on the open market until it has acquired all of AMC's shares.  How does that sound?

Sounds like an opportunity to game the system.  What happens to the hold-outs who don't convert?

No problem, they stay in AMC as long as they want.  We do not force anyone to move their shares to VMC.
AMC keeps trading, it is just a chance for those that want to get into the selling of equipment to get into VMC.

So, AMC shareholders are entitled to 10% of the Gross profits of AMC sales.  I'm assuming that VMC shareholders would be entitled to a much larger percentage of VMC profits, yes?  Again, I have said before that I am fine with the companies being split, but I feel like we should have the opportunity to buy into both companies if that is the case, and allow fundraising to take place within each company individually.  None of this, "lending money to VMC or vice-versa" nonsense.  I think that in its inception, you had a rather good idea, but did not think it through all the way.  Another thing, for the love of god, please allow the option to change up the description and or contract like every other offering on Bitfunder.  There is no need to reinvent an already rolling wheel.

I would like one entity to exist to not have to go back and forth in regards to AMC/VMC and who owns what and the percentages of profits. This is just too much headache and we have to simplify. But if two entities must exist one solution in AMC/VMC existing together is by VMC owning shares in AMC. VMC can be a division within AMC that runs sales and mining operations on a day to day basis. The VMC division will be funded by the shares sold to VMC. VMC will be paid in dividends and this will be an incentive to make more sales and to mine faster for more profits. VMC wins and can support Ken and his team. At the same time AMC shareholders win because Ken and his team will do whatever they can in their power to generate more profit for the security.