[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[grimholt]

Ken, you say that you need more than 10k BTC for the NRE. Your chart shows that you currently have around 2.5k, so there are 7.5k more Bitcoins you need. However, the entire wall on BTCT would only provide 3957.34. How do you plan to deal with this discrepancy?

+1

If you check the dates, the NRE funds are still not accounted for in this balance, those are just the funds from the 5M initial shares.

With these, from the ~24th June to ~28th June:

.0025 Shares sold on Bifunder: 432,649
.0025 Shares sold on BTC-TC: 511,678
Total: 944,327

944323/4000000 = 0.23608075 = ~23.6 % funded

Which should account for +BTC2360.8075.

Btct.co shares are currently at 870,304, so that's more 358,626 shares sold (should even be more since some were tendered to BF) for +BTC896.565.

Current Total: ~BTC5709.21

Nice catch, I did not see that the dates on the report were quite old.

Now that's more like it.

This means when the wall on BTC-TC is gone (with the number FloatesMcgoates used in his post), we would have (3957.34+5709.21)/10000 = 0.966655 = ~96.7 % funded.

When taking into account that we also have other sources of funding, the NRE cost should be covered even before this.

Edit: Vbs beat me to it.  

[Vbs]

Now that's more like it.

This means when the wall on BTC-TC is gone (with the number FloatesMcgoates used in his post), we would have (3957.34+5709.21)/10000 = 0.966655 = ~96.7 % funded.

When taking into account that we also have other sources of funding, the NRE cost should be covered even before this.

Me likey your math!

[FloatesMcgoates]

Nice catch, I did not see that the dates on the report were quite old.

Also, 1,567,702 (btct.co wall) + 885,625 (outstanding) - 511,678 (previous) = 1,941,649 * 0.0025 = BTC4854.1225

BTC2452 + BTC2361 + BTC4854 = ~BTC9667 when btct.co wall is fully depleted. I'm expecting that with some other funding options the wall won't even get to zero before being removed.

My main concern now is the rate at which the wall can be depleted, as it seems that nothing can get done without the NRE being funded.

Also, Ken stated that he sold a number of bitcoins at 68 dollars, and given that bitcoins have not been above 100 USD for a long time (mostly hovering around 85ish for the last few weeks), Ken will need maybe an additional 20%, or 12000 bitcoins before we see him pay the NRE.

The wall seems to be steadily disappearing, but if a slowdown in consumption begins, then the whole operation would seemingly be put into jeopardy (as posited above, no progress on hardware can begin until NRE paid).

As I have argued, perhaps it would be wise to rely not SOLELY on stock sales in order to fund the NRE. This means using pre-order money or taking out a loan via the local bank.

[Vbs]

Nice catch, I did not see that the dates on the report were quite old.

Also, 1,567,702 (btct.co wall) + 885,625 (outstanding) - 511,678 (previous) = 1,941,649 * 0.0025 = BTC4854.1225

BTC2452 + BTC2361 + BTC4854 = ~BTC9667 when btct.co wall is fully depleted. I'm expecting that with some other funding options the wall won't even get to zero before being removed.

My main concern now is the rate at which the wall can be depleted, as it seems that nothing can get done without the NRE being funded.

Also, Ken stated that he sold a number of bitcoins at 68 dollars, and given that bitcoins have not been above 100 USD for a long time (mostly hovering around 85ish for the last few weeks), Ken will need maybe an additional 20%, or 12000 bitcoins before we see him pay the NRE.

The wall seems to be steadily disappearing, but if a slowdown in consumption begins, then the whole operation would seemingly be put into jeopardy (as posited above, no progress on hardware can begin until NRE paid).

As I have argued, perhaps it would be wise to rely not SOLELY on stock sales in order to fund the NRE. This means using pre-order money or taking out a loan via the local bank.

Remember that there are still 20,000 avalon chips arriving sometime next month, and the 68 Klondike-16 boards this month. That will put ActM on 6.377 TH/s very shortly. Even at a network hashrate of ~500TH/s, those will still generate ~BTC1,642.70 per month, not counting the fact some can be sold at a good price if required.

I'd risk to say the chip is a done deal at this point!

[FloatesMcgoates]

Nice catch, I did not see that the dates on the report were quite old.

Also, 1,567,702 (btct.co wall) + 885,625 (outstanding) - 511,678 (previous) = 1,941,649 * 0.0025 = BTC4854.1225

BTC2452 + BTC2361 + BTC4854 = ~BTC9667 when btct.co wall is fully depleted. I'm expecting that with some other funding options the wall won't even get to zero before being removed.

My main concern now is the rate at which the wall can be depleted, as it seems that nothing can get done without the NRE being funded.

Also, Ken stated that he sold a number of bitcoins at 68 dollars, and given that bitcoins have not been above 100 USD for a long time (mostly hovering around 85ish for the last few weeks), Ken will need maybe an additional 20%, or 12000 bitcoins before we see him pay the NRE.

The wall seems to be steadily disappearing, but if a slowdown in consumption begins, then the whole operation would seemingly be put into jeopardy (as posited above, no progress on hardware can begin until NRE paid).

As I have argued, perhaps it would be wise to rely not SOLELY on stock sales in order to fund the NRE. This means using pre-order money or taking out a loan via the local bank.

Remember that there are still 20,000 avalon chips arriving sometime next month, and the 68 Klondike-16 boards this month. That will put ActM on 6.377 TH/s very shortly. Even at a network hashrate of ~500TH/s, those will still generate ~BTC1,642.70 per month, not counting the fact some can be sold at a good price if required.

I'd risk to say the chip is a done deal at this point!

Good points, but as you can see from the chart Ken posted around 90% of income derived from mining is then deducted as expenses due to commitments to dividends, thus mining will play a very minimal role in achieving the NRE funding goal.

[Vbs]

Good points, but as you can see from the chart Ken posted around 90% of income derived from mining is then deducted as expenses due to commitments to dividends, thus mining will play a very minimal role in achieving the NRE funding goal.

That's just because the growth fund shares were also receiving dividends (and around ~85% of them!). On ActM that percentage is adaptable to overcome specific needs.

[FloatesMcgoates]

Good points, but as you can see from the chart Ken posted around 90% of income derived from mining is then deducted as expenses due to commitments to dividends, thus mining will play a very minimal role in achieving the NRE funding goal.

That's just because the growth fund shares were also receiving dividends (and around ~85% of them!). On ActM that percentage is adaptable to overcome specific needs.

It is my understanding that ActM does not have a growth fund, is this incorrect?

[Vbs]

Good points, but as you can see from the chart Ken posted around 90% of income derived from mining is then deducted as expenses due to commitments to dividends, thus mining will play a very minimal role in achieving the NRE funding goal.

That's just because the growth fund shares were also receiving dividends (and around ~85% of them!). On ActM that percentage is adaptable to overcome specific needs.

It is my understanding that ActM does not have a growth fund, is this incorrect?

You are correct, ActM does not have a "growth fund" as a specific number of shares, but it comes to reason that some of the overall profits must be held for future growth. More or less would depend on the income stream and the immediacy for funds.

[grimholt]

It is my understanding that ActM does not have a growth fund, is this incorrect?

ActiveMining does not have a defined growth and expansion fund.

Here are the detail of the dividend payment made yesterday:

Mining Revenue for the week:              80.00 BTC.
Growth And Expansion Fund Payment:  61.13 BTC  
                                                         =======

Total                                                 141.13 BTC

The Growth And Expansion Fund is not need now as we are unwinding AMC and preparing for it to be merged into
Active Mining which does not have a Growth And Expansion Fund defined.  Growth And Expansion will come from
the general revenue of the company, which can include income from mining, sales, and services.  Also, the shares
which AMC owned and where receiving dividends were de-issued as it did not serve any purpose due to the
merger for AMC to continue receiving dividends.  

[FloatesMcgoates]

Good points, but as you can see from the chart Ken posted around 90% of income derived from mining is then deducted as expenses due to commitments to dividends, thus mining will play a very minimal role in achieving the NRE funding goal.

That's just because the growth fund shares were also receiving dividends (and around ~85% of them!). On ActM that percentage is adaptable to overcome specific needs.

It is my understanding that ActM does not have a growth fund, is this incorrect?

You are correct, ActM does not have a "growth fund" as a specific number of shares, but it comes to reason that some of the overall profits must be held for future growth. More or less would depend on the income stream and the immediacy for funds.

How does withholding profits jive with

Public investor's protection plan
The first 10,000,000 ActiveMining shares have the privilege of getting all profits until BTC0.0025/share is paid, starting from the day when dividends begin to be paid

[Stuartuk]

You need to speculate to accumulate - I'm buying another lump of shares, if we all chip in a little more now we will see results sooner.

[Vbs]

How does withholding profits jive with

Public investor's protection plan
The first 10,000,000 ActiveMining shares have the privilege of getting all profits until BTC0.0025/share is paid, starting from the day when dividends begin to be paid

Growth is classified as an expense. The above phrase just means Ken doesn't receive a satoshi on his shares until BTC0.0025 is paid per share to the first 10,000,000 public shares (which is every share in circulation right now).

Dividend payment
The global ActiveMining's income, including mining income, hardware sales via bitcoins, other cryptocoins and fiat transferred to bitcoins, will be paid to ActiveMining shareholders proportionally, when all manufacturing, maintenance, labor costs, R&D, growth and miscellaneous expenses are deducted. The first BTC0.0025/share dividends will only be paid to the first 10,000,000 ActiveMining shares, providing public investors a priority in getting back 100% return of their investment.

[hennessyhemp]

Disambiguation:

Hey folks, my account was hacked on July 10th, in an apparent attempt to use my account like a pump and dump...post on every major thread.  Yes that is my picture.  Yes I believe industrial hemp to be the future of America and just about every country on the planet.  You can see this to be true by realizing I DO have all my real life personality connected here.  Review my posts up to the tenth and then check out the massive difference in the posts marked the 10th.  I have connected my real life personality freely as I intend to do good business here...and in fact have.

Anyhow, sorry if that prick offended anyone, I certainly never tried to...and am appalled that someone would use my account
to ruffle up feathers...that doesn't even seem like it's in line with his mission to pump the account...why would you piss people off when you're trying to gain credibility...I don't get it.

Also, hell yeah I'm fun to party with!

Oh...and damn straight I've had trouble with the law ladies...you may commence swooning.

I also have twitter and facebook...hennessyhemp

I intend to help legalize industrial hemp and marijuana (in that specific order), as I believe it is an assault on our rights as humans on this planet to keep mankind from a plant which is so clearly meant to be for mankind.  The seed produces a rare chemical compound found in a human mothers milk (and very uncommon in plants).  Whether you believe in God or not...there is no denying this plant was meant to be linked to humanity, and that it has always been here for us.

Making a plant illegal is like saying God was wrong - Bill Hicks

[stslimited]

ITT: breakeven. When will these shares break even from dividends?

Just curious, because if I load up to take down those bid walls, me and everybody else is going to be verrrryy illiquid trying to liquidate any meaningful amount of shares in the future.

[kleeck]

Disambiguation:

Hey folks, my account was hacked on July 10th, in an apparent attempt to use my account like a pump and dump...post on every major thread.  Yes that is my picture.  Yes I believe industrial hemp to be the future of America and just about every country on the planet.  You can see this to be true by realizing I DO have all my real life personality connected here.  Review my posts up to the tenth and then check out the massive difference in the posts marked the 10th.  I have connected my real life personality freely as I intend to do good business here...and in fact have.

Anyhow, sorry if that prick offended anyone, I certainly never tried to...and am appalled that someone would use my account
to ruffle up feathers...that doesn't even seem like it's in line with his mission to pump the account...why would you piss people off when you're trying to gain credibility...I don't get it.

Also, hell yeah I'm fun to party with!

Oh...and damn straight I've had trouble with the law ladies...you may commence swooning.

I also have twitter and facebook...hennessyhemp

I intend to help legalize industrial hemp and marijuana (in that specific order), as I believe it is an assault on our rights as humans on this planet to keep mankind from a plant which is so clearly meant to be for mankind.  The seed produces a rare chemical compound found in a human mothers milk (and very uncommon in plants).  Whether you believe in God or not...there is no denying this plant was meant to be linked to humanity, and that it has always been here for us.

Making a plant illegal is like saying God was wrong - Bill Hicks

Go home, hennessyhemp, you're drunk! high!

[VolanicEruptor]

Just ignore him. 

[ArcticWolf]

ITT: breakeven. When will these shares break even from dividends?

Just curious, because if I load up to take down those bid walls, me and everybody else is going to be verrrryy illiquid trying to liquidate any meaningful amount of shares in the future.

Realistically there is no way to know that, because difficulty increases, delay to manufacture, pre order numbers, sales of hardware, the hashing power and any other numbers of factors will affect how much revenue the company (or any other company for that matter) will make.

[lolstate]

You need to speculate to accumulate - I'm buying another lump of shares, if we all chip in a little more now we will see results sooner.

Chipping away at the wall helps, but I'm now convinced that pre-sales are the way to go. I suggest a small batch of miners tendered for sale Avalon style, with the sole intention of raising funds to complete payment of the NRE. If the purpose of this sale and a reasonable estimate for delivery is provided, I could see them selling out very quickly. Refund requests would only be accepted after, say, 30 days.

A second, larger batch could be offered for pre-sale, clearly marked as contingent on the successful manufacture of the chip, with the option for a full refund on request.

[Technologov]

IMO pre-order without having actual hardware to sell will result in another BFL fiasco.

Few ideas:
1. Cheap NRE at 45 nm or 40 nm instead of state of the art 28 nm. How much will it cost and what are the downsides?
2. Investors (shareholders) vote to decrease dividend to just 10% profits for the next 3 years. This will create growth fund for future expenses. In the real world no start up pays any dividend for many years.

-Technologov

[ArcticWolf]

IMO pre-order without having actual hardware to sell will result in another BFL fiasco.

Few ideas:
1. Cheap NRE at 45 nm or 40 nm instead of state of the art 28 nm. How much will it cost and what are the downsides?
2. Investors (shareholders) vote to decrease dividend to just 10% profits for the next 3 years. This will create growth fund for future expenses. In the real world no start up pays any dividend for many years.

-Technologov

I feel like this is a non-issue at the moment, as Ken has many avenues to get the NRE, as he stated in the ActiveMining thread:

Our Plans For Shares and the NRE:

When we reach our goal of funding for the NRE from any of the following sources (shares sales, machine sales, chip sales, private funding, mining, loans etc) with a bit of leeway for other expenses, I will make a post here in the thread and then take down the wall immediately.