[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[lolstate]

IMO pre-order without having actual hardware to sell will result in another BFL fiasco.

Few ideas:
1. Cheap NRE at 45 nm or 40 nm instead of state of the art 28 nm. How much will it cost and what are the downsides?
2. Investors (shareholders) vote to decrease dividend to just 10% profits for the next 3 years. This will create growth fund for future expenses. In the real world no start up pays any dividend for many years.

-Technologov

0. You'd have to work quite hard to replicate the BFL fiasco. It isn't likely to happen with ActM.
1. The only thing holding back 28nm is capital, not technical hurdles. The capital *will* be raised, it is only a question of how best to do it and how quickly it can be done.
2. Dividends of 0.0025 BTC / share is absolutely doable, as the likes of ASICMINER have shown. This isn't the real world, so we shouldn't feel constrained by its norms.

[Vbs]

IMO pre-order without having actual hardware to sell will result in another BFL fiasco.

Few ideas:
1. Cheap NRE at 45 nm or 40 nm instead of state of the art 28 nm. How much will it cost and what are the downsides?
2. Investors (shareholders) vote to decrease dividend to just 10% profits for the next 3 years. This will create growth fund for future expenses. In the real world no start up pays any dividend for many years.

-Technologov

0. You'd have to work quite hard to replicate the BFL fiasco. It isn't likely to happen with ActM.
1. The only thing holding back 28nm is capital, not technical hurdles. The capital *will* be raised, it is only a question of how best to do it and how quickly it can be done.
2. Dividends of 0.0025 BTC / share is absolutely doable, as the likes of ASICMINER have shown. This isn't the real world, so we shouldn't feel constrained by its norms.

The chosen asic process (eAsic nextreme) guarantees a chip manufactured in a specific time-frame with "expected" zero delays, that's what they are all about. This is not initially a fully-custom asic. There are numerous examples of eAsic nextreme benefits on the web, for example, read http://www.design-reuse.com/articles/15462/nextreme-structured-asics-an-alternative-for-designing-cost-optimized-arm926ej-processor-based-embedded-systems.html for a comparison of the benefits and drawbacks of eAsic's nextreme route vs others.

Also, remember that eAsic does provide a means to convert the chip to a cell-based asic, for a seamless transition, http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1316644

The dividend of 0.0025/share will be paid in record time once ActM starts selling 28nm chips/machines. Just look at how many chips/machines Avalon sold in a few months, http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

[Streets 2.0]

IMO pre-order without having actual hardware to sell will result in another BFL fiasco.

Few ideas:
1. Cheap NRE at 45 nm or 40 nm instead of state of the art 28 nm. How much will it cost and what are the downsides?
2. Investors (shareholders) vote to decrease dividend to just 10% profits for the next 3 years. This will create growth fund for future expenses. In the real world no start up pays any dividend for many years.

-Technologov

0. You'd have to work quite hard to replicate the BFL fiasco. It isn't likely to happen with ActM.
1. The only thing holding back 28nm is capital, not technical hurdles. The capital *will* be raised, it is only a question of how best to do it and how quickly it can be done.
2. Dividends of 0.0025 BTC / share is absolutely doable, as the likes of ASICMINER have shown. This isn't the real world, so we shouldn't feel constrained by its norms.

The chosen asic process (eAsic nextreme) guarantees a chip manufactured in a specific time-frame with "expected" zero delays, that's what they are all about. This is not initially a fully-custom asic. There are numerous examples of eAsic nextreme benefits on the web, for example, read http://www.design-reuse.com/articles/15462/nextreme-structured-asics-an-alternative-for-designing-cost-optimized-arm926ej-processor-based-embedded-systems.html for a comparison of the benefits and drawbacks of eAsic's nextreme route vs others.

Also, remember that eAsic does provide a means to convert the chip to a cell-based asic, for a seamless transition, http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1316644

The dividend of 0.0025/share will be paid in record time once ActM starts selling 28nm chips/machines. Just look at how many chips/machines Avalon sold in a few months, http://thegenesisblock.com/latest-shipment-of-avalon-asics-could-increase-network-hashrate-by-500/

Conversly, look at the amount of chips inept BFL was able to sell, and we all know the sentiment carried for that POS.  People are ASIC crazy, chip sales will be high

[Exocyst]

Conversly, look at the amount of chips inept BFL was able to sell, and we all know the sentiment carried for that POS.  People are ASIC crazy, chip sales will be high

I think the ASIC craze will die down quite a bit after many miners fail to reach their ROI in the coming months—the massive increase in difficulty may squash late order BFLs, block eruptors, and the latest asicminer blades. However, there will always be an enormous demand for the newest, fastest, most efficient mining tech.

[navitatl]

Conversly, look at the amount of chips inept BFL was able to sell, and we all know the sentiment carried for that POS.  People are ASIC crazy, chip sales will be high

I think the ASIC craze will die down quite a bit after many miners fail to reach their ROI in the coming months—the massive increase in difficulty may squash late order BFLs, block eruptors, and the latest asicminer blades. However, there will always be an enormous demand for the newest, fastest, most efficient mining tech.

The way I see it, the market is RIPE for a company that has reliable inventory, shipped on demand, and priced at a level that miners can expect to actually make their money back in a year or so. Of all the other ASIC retailers, you can pretty much "pick 2" (if even) from those traits. If ActiveMining's production method is as efficient and cheap as I've been lead to believe, then they could quickly put themselves in that position and become the market leader.

[kslaughter]

Conversly, look at the amount of chips inept BFL was able to sell, and we all know the sentiment carried for that POS.  People are ASIC crazy, chip sales will be high

I think the ASIC craze will die down quite a bit after many miners fail to reach their ROI in the coming months—the massive increase in difficulty may squash late order BFLs, block eruptors, and the latest asicminer blades. However, there will always be an enormous demand for the newest, fastest, most efficient mining tech.

The way I see it, the market is RIPE for a company that has reliable inventory, shipped on demand, and priced at a level that miners can expect to actually make their money back in a year or so. Of all the other ASIC retailers, you can pretty much "pick 2" (if even) from those traits. If ActiveMining's production method is as efficient and cheap as I've been lead to believe, then they could quickly put themselves in that position and become the market leader.

I like your thinking. 

[Vbs]

Conversly, look at the amount of chips inept BFL was able to sell, and we all know the sentiment carried for that POS.  People are ASIC crazy, chip sales will be high

I think the ASIC craze will die down quite a bit after many miners fail to reach their ROI in the coming months—the massive increase in difficulty may squash late order BFLs, block eruptors, and the latest asicminer blades. However, there will always be an enormous demand for the newest, fastest, most efficient mining tech.

At some point people will realize that unless they go directly to the most recent die shrink (currently 28nm) they are just throwing money away. Asicminer's and Avalon's 110nm tech is from ~2003, BFL's 65nm is from ~2006, Bitfury's 45nm is from ~2008. The current 28nm tech is from 2011-2012, with the next one being 20nm in ~2014.

Targeting 28nm from the get go is the only thing that makes sense at the moment, since it's the only one that guarantees you'll have the most time available to use the equipment until it stops being profitable.

[Vbs]

Sadly this thinking destroys companies.

First to market trumps technology currently. Eventually it will be cut throat enough where Power Consumption plays a key role but that won't be for a while.

I'd rather have 1 TH right now consuming 10,000W vs 1 TH 3 months from now consuming 1,000W.

If the time to make the chips is the same (or very close) regardless of nm size then I would opt for the better one.

I'd say it destroys uninformed customers much more than it destroys companies. Companies can calculate their profit margins and time-frames with great expertise. What happens when the Avalon bought today is the GPU of 2014?

[lolstate]

Conversly, look at the amount of chips inept BFL was able to sell, and we all know the sentiment carried for that POS.  People are ASIC crazy, chip sales will be high

I think the ASIC craze will die down quite a bit after many miners fail to reach their ROI in the coming months—the massive increase in difficulty may squash late order BFLs, block eruptors, and the latest asicminer blades. However, there will always be an enormous demand for the newest, fastest, most efficient mining tech.

At some point people will realize that unless they go directly to the most recent die shrink (currently 28nm) they are just throwing money away. Asicminer's and Avalon's 110nm tech is from ~2003, BFL's 65nm is from ~2006, Bitfury's 45nm is from ~2008. The current 28nm tech is from 2011-2012, with the next one being 20nm in ~2014.

Targeting 28nm from the get go is the only thing that makes sense at the moment, since it's the only one that guarantees you'll have the most time available to use the equipment until it stops being profitable.

Sadly this thinking destroys companies.

First to market trumps technology currently. Eventually it will be cut throat enough where Power Consumption plays a key role but that won't be for a while.

I'd rather have 1 TH right now consuming 10,000W vs 1 TH 3 months from now consuming 1,000W.

If the time to make the chips is the same (or very close) regardless of nm size then I would opt for the better one.

I don't think anyone is suggesting ActM has a binary game plan that requires x TH to deploy now or x TH in 3 months. ActM will continue to build, sell and deploy miners as the months unfold, to keep up with and challenge the increase in difficulty we all see coming. In other words you are not buying a fixed TH mining bond with this asset - you are buying an *active* mining company.

[stslimited]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

[Streets 2.0]

Sadly this thinking destroys companies.

First to market trumps technology currently. Eventually it will be cut throat enough where Power Consumption plays a key role but that won't be for a while.

I'd rather have 1 TH right now consuming 10,000W vs 1 TH 3 months from now consuming 1,000W.

If the time to make the chips is the same (or very close) regardless of nm size then I would opt for the better one.

I'd say it destroys uninformed customers much more than it destroys companies. Companies can calculate their profit margins and time-frames with great expertise. What happens when the Avalon bought today is the GPU of 2014?

Shit, I think we are already there.  GPU mining is dead unless you have free electricity, at current difficulty, a 10GH miner will only produce .19 BTC a day... what will they make next week?  

[Vbs]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

Our Plans For Shares and the NRE:

When we reach our goal of funding for the NRE from any of the following sources (shares sales, machine sales, chip sales, private funding, mining, loans etc) with a bit of leeway for other expenses, I will make a post here in the thread and then take down the wall immediately.

[Streets 2.0]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

[stslimited]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

great thanks, this wall is only on BTCT.co currently?  It isn't on AMC-PT on Bitfunder, nor ActiveMining on Bitfunder

[Streets 2.0]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

great thanks, this wall is only on BTCT.co currently?  It isn't on AMC-PT on Bitfunder, nor ActiveMining on Bitfunder

There is a small wall on BF ActiveMining at 0.0025

[wonker]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

great thanks, this wall is only on BTCT.co currently?  It isn't on AMC-PT on Bitfunder, nor ActiveMining on Bitfunder

There is a small wall on BF ActiveMining at 0.0025

...and since 1 or 2 days there are some people who dont want the price going up to 0.0025 on BF it seems. The wall between 0.0021 and 0.0022 ist filled up every few hours again.

[lolstate]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

great thanks, this wall is only on BTCT.co currently?  It isn't on AMC-PT on Bitfunder, nor ActiveMining on Bitfunder

There is a small wall on BF ActiveMining at 0.0025

...and since 1 or 2 days there are some people who dont want the price going up to 0.0025 on BF it seems. The wall between 0.0021 and 0.0022 ist filled up every few hours again.

Spot on. If I were a rival company feeling threatened by upcoming competition from ActM, I'd want to slow down ActM's ability to raise capital by placing lots of sell orders below 0.0025. If you watch the behaviour closely, it's the obvious explanation. Most flippers keen to take an early profit on shares bought at 0.0005 - 0.001 have already done so, which leaves the manipulators as the only sellers. The news from ActM is better each day, so there isn't really a sensible reason to be selling at this point.

[wonker]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

great thanks, this wall is only on BTCT.co currently?  It isn't on AMC-PT on Bitfunder, nor ActiveMining on Bitfunder

There is a small wall on BF ActiveMining at 0.0025

...and since 1 or 2 days there are some people who dont want the price going up to 0.0025 on BF it seems. The wall between 0.0021 and 0.0022 ist filled up every few hours again.

Spot on. If I were a rival company feeling threatened by upcoming competition from ActM, I'd want to slow down ActM's ability to raise capital by placing lots of sell orders below 0.0025. If you watch the behaviour closely, it's the obvious explanation. Most flippers keen to take an early profit on shares bought at 0.0005 - 0.001 have already done so, which leaves the manipulators as the only sellers. The news from ActM is better each day, so there isn't really a sensible reason to be selling at this point.

+1

[lewicki]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

great thanks, this wall is only on BTCT.co currently?  It isn't on AMC-PT on Bitfunder, nor ActiveMining on Bitfunder

There is a small wall on BF ActiveMining at 0.0025

...and since 1 or 2 days there are some people who dont want the price going up to 0.0025 on BF it seems. The wall between 0.0021 and 0.0022 ist filled up every few hours again.

Spot on. If I were a rival company feeling threatened by upcoming competition from ActM, I'd want to slow down ActM's ability to raise capital by placing lots of sell orders below 0.0025. If you watch the behaviour closely, it's the obvious explanation. Most flippers keen to take an early profit on shares bought at 0.0005 - 0.001 have already done so, which leaves the manipulators as the only sellers. The news from ActM is better each day, so there isn't really a sensible reason to be selling at this point.

+1

No. Those ask walls are being lowered every time and people are buying into them, not selling because of them. Why would someone buy shares of a company that they wanted to fail in the first place. If you dont plant the weed in the first place you won't need to cut it down later.

[lolstate]

okay kslaughter, don't be greedy, bitcoin's exchange rate has appreciated again, drop the bid wall again to reflect that

This has already been discussed, the ask wall will be removed entirely, soon.

great thanks, this wall is only on BTCT.co currently?  It isn't on AMC-PT on Bitfunder, nor ActiveMining on Bitfunder

There is a small wall on BF ActiveMining at 0.0025

...and since 1 or 2 days there are some people who dont want the price going up to 0.0025 on BF it seems. The wall between 0.0021 and 0.0022 ist filled up every few hours again.

Spot on. If I were a rival company feeling threatened by upcoming competition from ActM, I'd want to slow down ActM's ability to raise capital by placing lots of sell orders below 0.0025. If you watch the behaviour closely, it's the obvious explanation. Most flippers keen to take an early profit on shares bought at 0.0005 - 0.001 have already done so, which leaves the manipulators as the only sellers. The news from ActM is better each day, so there isn't really a sensible reason to be selling at this point.

+1

No. Those ask walls are being lowered every time and people are buying into them, not selling because of them. Why would someone buy shares of a company that they wanted to fail in the first place. If you dont plant the weed in the first place you won't need to cut it down later.

Sure there are people buying into the Asks, because they see a good investment. The sellers are stopping the buyers from eating into Ken's 0.0025 wall, that is all they need be concerned with if their objective is to hobble ActM's ability to raise capital. It is quite easy to obtain shares off market if you have the BTC, and you will happily sell at a loss if your sole objective is to slow down a competitor.