My bank account's got robbed by European Commission. Over 700k is lost.

[Operatr]

To put it a simple way:

If your money is in a bank, it is no longer your money, it is the bank's and they may do whatever they damn well please with it. Banks are above the law, they answer to literally no one.

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[deadweasel]

To put it a simple way:

If your money is in a bank, it is no longer your money, it is the bank's and they may do whatever they damn well please with it. Banks are above the law, they answer to literally no one.

+1     Simple and eloquent.

[Matthew N. Wright]

To put it a simple way:

If your money is in a bank, it is no longer your money, it is the bank's and they may do whatever they damn well please with it. Banks are above the law, they answer to literally no one.

Along that line, if you put your money into bitcoins, you are the exclusive controller of those tokens but the value is no longer yours, and the fragile market can decide whatever it damn well pleases your tokens to be worth. I wonder if that will ever not be true in the future, or at least mildly manageable.

[wachtwoord]

To put it a simple way:

If your money is in a bank, it is no longer your money, it is the bank's and they may do whatever they damn well please with it. Banks are above the law, they answer to literally no one.

Along that line, if you put your money into bitcoins, you are the exclusive controller of those tokens but the value is no longer yours, and the fragile market can decide whatever it damn well pleases your tokens to be worth. I wonder if that will ever not be true in the future, or at least mildly manageable.

That's true for any asset ever. The fact is that with fiat in a bank it's not just the thing you are holding which can deprecate in value but the thing you are holding can be taken away from you altogether. This cannot happen if you physically own the asset you are holding.

[boltactionz]

I don't know how many times I have to say this but you cannot have a bank account in the world. You have to keep your money in the form of either cash or investments like collectibles or bitcoins persay. If you keep it in a bank, you pay huge taxes. If you live in a normal country where the banking system is much more reliable, aka not these weird european countries who aren't relevant, then they won't ever take your money, but paying the huge taxes automatically excludes that option.

You don't understand!  This IS the new normal for the western banking world...

And it has nothing to do with "weird european countries", LOL.  This is a template, and Cyprus was the test ground to see how it would work and what, if anything, the people would do about it.  US and Canada and UK have already set plans in motion, have already written rules to follow the same plan of taxing/taking from bank accounts in order to cover losses as far back as 2010, so...

And as for the "if it's in a bank", I'll defer to Ann Barnhardt, a commodities brokerage firm owner who literally shut her business down and handed each and every one of her clients their money back after the Jon Corzine/MF Global scam.  It was the only way she felt she could protect them from what's happening in the marketplace related to the financial shenanigans those in power are pulling these days.  She's a little rough around the edges sometimes due to fervent religious beliefs, but in her videos on the economy she explains things perfectly in ordinary layman's language.  She says:

"If the majority of your wealth is in the bank or in any form of one's and zero's in a computer somewhere, you do not own it!"

Again, if your money is a deposit in a bank, you no longer own it, you are an unsecured creditor of the bank.  And the BANK, not you, gets to count the cash on hand as an asset in any bankruptcy proceedings.  The sad thing in all of this is, the unsecured creditors are the last people to get paid back in case of bankruptcy, after all the secured creditors get theirs...if there is anything left to pay them with.  And in many bankruptcy cases, there is not usually anything left for the unsecured's.

So I have been telling everyone I can get to listen to me to take a look at this story of the OP and what he has been subjected to.  If nothing else, to take a look at the warning in his sig file (this has become quite a long thread to read through), no matter what country they are located in because it's quite possible that sooner or later it will likely be coming to a bank near you.

Go to the bank and get your money out!

Even Nigel Farage of UKIP has been saying the same thing these days!  You KNOW it's time to take heed when a politician comes out and tells people to go to the bank and get the money out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UZap5n3zGZ8

For those who have not seen them, it would be a good idea to watch Ann Barnhardt's series of videos titled "The economy is going to implode", as she explains what went wrong and what it takes to fix it.  Her videos will probably offend you, but my suggestion is that you struggle through them anyway and keep going to the end of the 8-part series to understand what has happened in the banking systems.  Each video is about 15-20 minutes or so long, and the link to the next video is in the comments below the current Youtube video.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um4Cht9hvTY

You have to keep your money in the form of either cash or investments . . .

The best investments are those that generate today-money (cashflow), and hopefully also appreciate in value as your fiat currency goes down.

This is not your father's or grandfather's banking system!

Also, if you are in the United States, you know that retirement account you thought you had?  Perhaps now would be a good time to cash out and go physical instead of one's and zero's...!

[boltactionz]

In the US it is illegal for such a thing to occur.

And yet, it happens anyway.  Worse, in the US the bailouts were added to the deficit, to be paid by my grandchildren instead of current taxpayers.  That's such an awful precedent I can't see any path back to respectablility for the US.  The current deficit is impossible to repay already, and continues to grow.  Default and economic breakdown are inevitable.

Furthermore, so many things are illegal in the US today, the average middle class American commits 3 felonies per day without their own knowledge of the violations.  The IRS scandal right now is proof that the average government agent is not aware of the laws that govern his own job, and that the basic understanding that picking on a group that you don't agree with is a felony was absent from the IRS.  It's also absent from the ATF, I've seen that one personally; and government agents tend not to listen to those around them who have a deeper understanding of the law.

Your post reminded me of this cute joke I once saw about alphabet soup lettered agencies and their authority...

DEA officer stops at a ranch in Texas , and talks with an old rancher. He tells the rancher, “I need to inspect your ranch for illegally grown drugs.”

 The rancher says, “Okay, but don’t go in that field over there,” as he points out the location.

 The DEA officer verbally explodes saying, ” Mister, I have the authority of the Federal Government with me.” Reaching into his rear pants pocket, he removes his badge and proudly displays it to the rancher. “See this badge? This badge means I am allowed to go wherever I wish . . . . On any land. No questions asked or answers given. Have I made myself clear? Do you understand?”

 The rancher nods politely, apologizes, and goes about his chores.

 A short time later, the old rancher hears loud screams and sees the DEA officer running for his life chased by one of the big wild boars on the ranch . . . . . .

 With every step the boar is gaining ground on the officer, and it seems likely that he’ll get gored before he reaches safety. The officer is clearly terrified. The rancher throws down his tools, runs to the fence and yells at the top of his lungs . . . . .

 “Your badge. Show him your BADGE!"

Hope this made you laugh reading it as much as it makes me laugh in posting it!  

[MoonShadow]

Also, if you are in the United States, you know that retirement account you thought you had?  Perhaps now would be a good time to cash out and go physical instead of one's and zero's...!

I think that you know that is easier said than done.  For most people, the tax consequences alone of early withdrawal results in most people delaying such a decision.  My wife would never let me do any such thing, until the day that I can show her that it's already happening to others, by which time it will probably be too late.  The only thing that I can realisticly do is take out a "loan" against it, for which I can only get half of the nominal value and I have to pay back.

[boltactionz]

Also, if you are in the United States, you know that retirement account you thought you had?  Perhaps now would be a good time to cash out and go physical instead of one's and zero's...!

I think that you know that is easier said than done.  For most people, the tax consequences alone of early withdrawal results in most people delaying such a decision.  My wife would never let me do any such thing, until the day that I can show her that it's already happening to others, by which time it will probably be too late.  The only thing that I can realisticly do is take out a "loan" against it, for which I can only get half of the nominal value and I have to pay back.

I know that it's easier said than done.  But the truth is, the pols in this country have been searching for a way to plug the deficit for a very long time, and one way they likely will eventually get around to is capturing the 401k's and IRA's and forcing people to only "be allowed to" invest in government-issued products such as bonds.  It's what happened in Argentina back in 1999-2000 or so, it's likely eventually coming to America.

I know of several individuals who have felt it better to take the tax hit and just "suck it up" so that they could be sure they could have SOME of the money rather than wait for the eventual confiscation that ends with them having nothing.  It's not a confiscation in the Cypriot sense, but more like a confiscation in that the only thing allowed to be in the retirement accounts end up being a rapidly depreciating asset issued by the US Gov't.

How much do you trust your wife, LOL?  (There is a potential exemption buried in divorce law, believe it or not!  It doesn't work for everyone, but maybe it might work for you?)

[wachtwoord]

Also, if you are in the United States, you know that retirement account you thought you had?  Perhaps now would be a good time to cash out and go physical instead of one's and zero's...!

I think that you know that is easier said than done.  For most people, the tax consequences alone of early withdrawal results in most people delaying such a decision.  My wife would never let me do any such thing, until the day that I can show her that it's already happening to others, by which time it will probably be too late.  The only thing that I can realisticly do is take out a "loan" against it, for which I can only get half of the nominal value and I have to pay back.

Well I have no idea what the US is going to do with the 401k accounts because that is basically your money. It is merely an account on which you haven't paid taxes yet and you can invest yourself. I know the US have expropriated money before but still.

The European situation (mine) is much worse. Our pension funds are large (well hopefully) funds of money in which it is indistinguishable which money is whose. Further we don't get to choose what to invest in, cannot choose which pension fund we use, cannot withdraw early and are forced to participate through collective labour agreements. Basically people that receive pension now are paid with the new money coming in. How do we call that again? Oh yes a pension, err sorry a ponzi scheme.

Luckily thus far I haven't much money in this pyramid scheme as I have worked mostly for small companies without collective labour agreements and therefore could reduce these payments to the legal minimum. This will not continue unless I start a business. I see this is an extra taxation and have mentally said farewell to the cash already. I much rather pay income taxes now and receive some of the money than lose it all. I wish we had 401ks.

BTW: This is also a very good reason to marry with a premarital agreement. Choose what to do with your own money. Being forced by someone that you love dearly but uneducated (indoctrinated?) to make a foolish decision is unnecessary. Even so, with the knowledge I have available I can't say I would be thrilled to plunder my 401k if I were you.

[boltactionz]

The 401k is a private arrangement that is set up by companies that employees can elect to participate in, or not.  The IRA is an arrangement where anyone who has earned (wages, etc.) at least the amount they stick into the IRA during a tax year..can take personal money that in many cases has already been taxed...the normal IRA is pre-tax money that is taxed upon withdrawal but there is this thing that is called a Roth IRA (that a lot of people went to once it came out) that allows for people to contribute after-tax money but then when they take it out it's supposed to be tax-free withdrawals for anyone above age 59-1/2.  Chief advantage of a Roth IRA is, money grows without deducting for taxes since you already paid the taxes before putting it into the plan.  I say "supposed to be" because well, you know how politicians are.  They give with one hand when the limelight is on them and they can practically glow with the halo of an angel, then figure out a way to take it all back when nobody is looking!

That "take it all back" is likely coming soon...

When the whole Cyprus banking holiday first hit it woke up quite a few people, but not nearly enough.  What was most surprising to me was how they took a bank and severed the good assets and posted them to a "good bank" while taking the bad assets and leaving them with a separate "bad bank".

That doesn't even follow the bankruptcy rules of most common law nations, so at that point it became very hard to figure out what will come next when the template that all the politicians went around saying "wasn't a template" is laid out in the next instance.

I am glad that the OP was involved in Bitcoin at an early enough time that the Cyprus banking holiday did not cause him complete ruin, but he was probably luckier than most.  Ann Barnhardt in her videos calls what's going on the "stealing of people's lifeblood, the theft of their labor", which when you get right down to it, that is all that money is...a physical and extremely negotiable representation of one's productivity in a way that is easily traded for wants and needs when doing business with others when you do not have what they want or need to exchange for it.  The money replaces that so that they can in turn go to get what they want and need from those who have it instead of all of society going back to trading chickens for goats.  One thing that's unique about trading chickens for goats directly without the use of money in the middle, though, is that it's currently a little harder for the taxman to always get his!

And when you can figure out a way to legally short the taxman it becomes something really sexy...!  (And no, I'm not an accountant or a tax lawyer, LOL!)

[boltactionz]

Also, if you are in the United States, you know that retirement account you thought you had?  Perhaps now would be a good time to cash out and go physical instead of one's and zero's...!

My wife would never let me do any such thing, until the day that I can show her that it's already happening to others, by which time it will probably be too late.  The only thing that I can realisticly do is take out a "loan" against it, for which I can only get half of the nominal value and I have to pay back.

The thing to show her is not in the current marketplace in the US, but in the history of what happened in Argentina.  This time is NOT different...

[Namealreadyexists]

What little savings that I had were taken away by some fly-by Russian bank in 1998. I ended up finding a person who knew a person, a phone call was made, and I was able to cash it out. So there is always a way.

Maybe once the "good half" of Laiki Bank merges the Bank of Cyprus, the capital controls will be lifted and the OP can at least use what's left of his money. Meanwhile, does anyone know what the reality on the ground is in Cyprus now in terms of withdrawals?

[MoonShadow]

Also, if you are in the United States, you know that retirement account you thought you had?  Perhaps now would be a good time to cash out and go physical instead of one's and zero's...!

My wife would never let me do any such thing, until the day that I can show her that it's already happening to others, by which time it will probably be too late.  The only thing that I can realisticly do is take out a "loan" against it, for which I can only get half of the nominal value and I have to pay back.

The thing to show her is not in the current marketplace in the US, but in the history of what happened in Argentina.  This time is NOT different...

You and I know that, but it's really hard to convince a woman that Argentina is a case example comparable to the United States.

[MoonShadow]

I know of several individuals who have felt it better to take the tax hit and just "suck it up" so that they could be sure they could have SOME of the money rather than wait for the eventual confiscation that ends with them having nothing.  It's not a confiscation in the Cypriot sense, but more like a confiscation in that the only thing allowed to be in the retirement accounts end up being a rapidly depreciating asset issued by the US Gov't.

I'm sortof doing that, actually.  I'm in the process of buying about 5 hectares of mostly undeveloped forest land.  I live in a climate wherein trees grow readily without help, so according to the US government, the actual land is worthless; but it's still a viable investment under some conditions.  Most of the value, according to everyone else, is the house that sits on the land.  The house is barely livable, and I consider the ~3K trees to be the valuable part of the deal.  I figure that if I must, I can grow a garden and sell firewood, should the pols succeed in taking the remainder.

How much do you trust your wife, LOL?  (There is a potential exemption buried in divorce law, believe it or not!  It doesn't work for everyone, but maybe it might work for you?)

I trust her fine, and she is waking up, but that doesn't yet matter.

[Inedible]

I don't know how many times I have to say this but you cannot have a bank account in the world. You have to keep your money in the form of either cash or investments like collectibles or bitcoins persay. If you keep it in a bank, you pay huge taxes. If you live in a normal country where the banking system is much more reliable, aka not these weird european countries who aren't relevant, then they won't ever take your money, but paying the huge taxes automatically excludes that option.

I'm not sure where you live but if you think your bank won't take your funds if it goes insolvent, you're sadly mistaken.

Also, you either don't pay taxes because you don't earn enough or you're avoiding paying taxes.

If you're avoiding them, I hope you're also avoiding any infrastructure that's paid for by taxes.

[boltactionz]

Also, if you are in the United States, you know that retirement account you thought you had?  Perhaps now would be a good time to cash out and go physical instead of one's and zero's...!

My wife would never let me do any such thing, until the day that I can show her that it's already happening to others, by which time it will probably be too late.  The only thing that I can realisticly do is take out a "loan" against it, for which I can only get half of the nominal value and I have to pay back.

The thing to show her is not in the current marketplace in the US, but in the history of what happened in Argentina.  This time is NOT different...

You and I know that, but it's really hard to convince a woman that Argentina is a case example comparable to the United States.

Here's something you can point out after you show her the Argentina example for the purpose of demonstrating a trend, that DID happen in the US.

One year there was talk of a budget shortfall, what Timothy Geithner as Treas/Sec proposed and eventually did, was "temporarily borrowed from" the US federal employees' retirement system in order to cover the shortfall.  It was a quickie little dip into the funds, and it was supposed to be paid back.  Was it?  I don't know.  But just the fact that a US Treasury shortfall was covered by basically stealing money out of the federal employee pension system should be enough to let the doubters know that they will use whatever means they have to in order to get the job done, up to and including stealing anybody's retirement funds.  It was a relatively small amount percentage-wise, but a huge amount if you put it in dollar terms.

And this "little" tidbit was actually in the news, not really buried all that much.  It's not like one had to be reading super-obscure private newsletters in order to learn about it because it was on the news, film-at-eleven style for at least a couple of days after they did it.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't wait for it to happen again!

I call that little "dipping into the retirement" trick the Enron run, because one of the reasons the Enron employees lost out so big was because most of their retirement funds were all Enron stock.  Because the company imploded due to accounting "irregularities" and cute little off-the-books "count-funny" tricks, the average employee at the company lost everything, not just their jobs.  A lot of times when people struggle during a job loss they will dip into their retirement fund if they do not have enough money saved up outside it.  But because the company went under, the retirement account was gone, too.  (In somewhat related news, Jeffrey Skilling should be just about ready to get out of prison by now if he isn't already on the outside...)

Obama has already been heard to make a comment or two about having "too much tax-free money inside a Roth" and that "we need to change that" and that "three million is enough".  To me it sounded like a preparatory statement to get people ready for the eventual retirement account grab.  The mention of the cut-off level was just big enough that those who think that is a lot of money will go crazy and say "with all that money they deserve to pay", while anybody who knows reality will say "that's not enough to live on if I have to give the government half of it"!  I mean, bank CDs pay what, 1%?  At 1%, living off the interest of $3 million is just $30,000 a year.  If the government gets their way they'll try to take 35% of that, leaving one with just $19,500.



P.S.  I'm a woman, not a man.  So don't give up, it's not hard to convince all women out there!

[zeroday]

The stealing of my money is now finalized.

Yesterday I looked at my Laiki account and found that frozen amount is not more shown on my balance.
100% of frozen funds is now appears as outgoing transaction to nobody with comment "DECREE".

Also there are some news from lawyers.

The Supreme Court has not announced its decision yet. It examines preliminary objections raised by the Attorney on a basis that the Law and the Order are political acts of the state (like decision to start war) and therefore cannot be examined or controlled by the Supreme Court and that the matter in issue should be considered as a private and not a public law matter.

Also, there is recent translation of the "Capital Controls imposing DECREE"

[cr1776]

Thanks for the update - sorry you are going through this although I know that doesn't help much.  Please keep us updated, and I would still be interested in where you ended up (once you feel it is prudent to let us know the location of course).

 The power-hungry politicians are after power and money everywhere.

The stealing of my money is now finalized.

Yesterday I looked at my Laiki account and found that frozen amount is not more shown on my balance.
100% of frozen funds is now appears as outgoing transaction to nobody with comment "DECREE".

Also there are some news from lawyers.

The Supreme Court has not announced its decision yet. It examines preliminary objections raised by the Attorney on a basis that the Law and the Order are political acts of the state (like decision to start war) and therefore cannot be examined or controlled by the Supreme Court and that the matter in issue should be considered as a private and not a public law matter.

Also, there is recent translation of the "Capital Controls imposing DECREE"

[marcus_of_augustus]

By DECREE .... how ironic., fuckers.

[freedomno1]

By DECREE .... how ironic., fuckers.

Seconded by Decree your money is mine you can't do anything about it go suck a lemon