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Author Topic: First BFL ASIC!  (Read 58029 times)
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April 02, 2013, 04:01:45 AM
 #201

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Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

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April 02, 2013, 04:02:30 AM
 #202

Disclosure:  As I'm sure most of you know, I have many bets against BFL shipping, including a portion of this one

just saw this tweet:

Bets of Bitcoin ‏@betsofbitcoin 35m
Do you think BFL "shipped" ASICS https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.0 … to satisfy this bet: http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701  We would like your opinion.
Details


I cannot see any argument whatsoever for anything other than "true"


Quote
This bet concerns the 3 Butterfly Labs Bitforce SC products announced here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg966886#msg966886

For this statement to be false, both of the two following conditions must be met:

• Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

• The device must achieve at least 75% of its advertised hashrate.

-- obviously nothing has been shipped
-- there is a prototype still in BFL offices
-- these are unverified screenshots
-- and even by those screenshots they miss the 75% of advertised hashrate
-- LukeJr. would certainly be considered a BFL employee given the amount of work he has done in this prototype stage.  He is certainly not a normal customer


I am quite disappointed that BetsofBitcoin seems to have almost fallen for more of JZ's spin...

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April 02, 2013, 04:06:07 AM
 #203

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Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

Is an image a report? I thought a report is something like, "The unit is hashing at..."

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April 02, 2013, 04:10:30 AM
 #204

Quote
Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

Is an image a report? I thought a report is something like, "The unit is hashing at..."

Or, he could clarify that it is ONLY one unit, not two and that it hashed at this rate for this amount of time.   Why would he not want to do that? Can anyone think of any reason that he does not want to confirm this?


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April 02, 2013, 04:13:03 AM
 #205

BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.

This is all we need to know. BFL has shipped nothing yet. No Easter Shipping Miracle was performed.

They have a working prototype that Luke-Jr has access to and is helping with software development.

Josh claiming on BFL chat last night that they shipped just seemed really disingenuous and slimy. Par for the course as far as Josh goes I suppose.
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April 02, 2013, 04:18:48 AM
 #206

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.


Ah ok I feel better.  

I cannot see anything but an extremely weak argument being made otherwise.  I msg'd this personally to coinjedi, but it's worth posting publicly.  

IMO in the future follow the example in this betting thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135914  where we required 3x verified non-BFL user pix / hash rate test + a power rating of 350Mh/J or more efficient.  When betting on a company that has taken 1000's of pre-orders and given the extreme popularity of this forum, multiple independent verification would be easy.  

With a company as sneaky and backhanded as BFL, IMO it's on BetsofBitcoin to reject vague wagers.

Further more, I still have no clue how much I stand to win when I make bets there Smiley




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April 02, 2013, 04:19:16 AM
 #207

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.
Please note that I have physically handled my unit, and BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.
As I understand it, BFL's "shipping" refers to their Batch 1 which has special shipping constraints. The plan to provide units to developers in advance, including the ones I paid for such as this Little Single, has been there all along, so it would be unreasonable IMO to exclude it from the bet.
I believe you should be able to verify that I have no stake in the bet (unless it's semi-anonymous or something); I have no objections if you wish to disclose that.

Luke-Jr - Why did you request BFL to keep the unit?  Being that you are a developer wouldn't it been in everyone's best interest that you keep the unit?   Doesn't this seem odd?   It seems like there were some additional issues that you and BFL are working through.  In that case, wouldn't it be fair to say that these units have not "shipped"?   It has to be one or the other, wouldn't you say?  If a developer who has much technical expertise can not take his unit then how could we say it is shipping?  I am just trying to understand your position.


Thank you in advance.   Thank you again for all your hard work.

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April 02, 2013, 04:36:17 AM
 #208

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.
Please note that I have physically handled my unit, and BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.
As I understand it, BFL's "shipping" refers to their Batch 1 which has special shipping constraints. The plan to provide units to developers in advance, including the ones I paid for such as this Little Single, has been there all along, so it would be unreasonable IMO to exclude it from the bet.
I believe you should be able to verify that I have no stake in the bet (unless it's semi-anonymous or something); I have no objections if you wish to disclose that.

Luke-Jr - Why did you request BFL to keep the unit?  Being that you are a developer wouldn't it been in everyone's best interest that you keep the unit?   Doesn't this seem odd?   It seems like there were some additional issues that you and BFL are working through.  In that case, wouldn't it be fair to say that these units have not "shipped"?   It has to be one or the other, wouldn't you say?  If a developer who has much technical expertise can not take his unit then how could we say it is shipping?  I am just trying to understand your position.


Thank you in advance.   Thank you again for all your hard work.

+1

I, too, respect Luke and Kano for all they do.

Full Disclosure: I did not bet on this position, nor care its outcome, albeit I heavily lean toward the what's-right-is-right side of the fence.

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April 02, 2013, 04:49:16 AM
 #209

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=164067.0

imo bet is true.
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April 02, 2013, 05:19:35 AM
 #210

If Josh said it shipped, and Luke-Jr (no relation) said it's still in Kansas, then their stories simply DO NOT MATCH UP.

The only possible way to avoid this little inconvenient truth is the really-out-there chance that Josh shipped one to someone else, not Luke-Jr. (I kinda doubt that, but to be fair let's give Josh a chance to show us.)

I don't give a crap about the bet... This is about nothing less than the fate of all of BFL's customer's money.

Lies like units shipping when they haven't should only be overlooked by people who care nothing for their money.

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April 02, 2013, 05:24:06 AM
 #211

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

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April 02, 2013, 05:25:09 AM
 #212

Obviously Josh wants to say "shipped" because he's extremely pressured and stressed and whether he has "shipped" or not is the main metric of whether or not he is doing his job.

Shipped means, you know, on some kind of transport. Ship. Like on the water. Moving. That's where the word comes from at least.

I don't know why Josh complains about forum trolls picking apart everything he says, and then goes and makes such loose statements like "we've shipped" when they have a usable dev unit. It's begging for it. Who is really the troll..

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April 02, 2013, 05:31:44 AM
 #213

Grats and great job BFL!!

However for my 2 cents, the bet's outcome should be true.  "Shipped" I think is the keyword here.  I don't think anyone would agree that BFL has 'shipped' - sorry to those who might get mad at the outcome of this bet but hey, you can just mine back your losses right?  Tongue

Disclosure: I did not bet on this
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April 02, 2013, 05:34:00 AM
 #214

If Josh said it shipped, and Luke-Jr (no relation) said it's still in Kansas, then their stories simply DO NOT MATCH UP.

The only possible way to avoid this little inconvenient truth is the really-out-there chance that Josh shipped one to someone else, not Luke-Jr. (I kinda doubt that, but to be fair let's give Josh a chance to show us.)

I don't give a crap about the bet... This is about nothing less than the fate of all of BFL's customer's money.

Lies like units shipping when they haven't should only be overlooked by people who care nothing for their money.

I'll state it again. It was impossible to ship anything in the US on Easter Sunday prior to midnight using any carrier. The very best they could've done was print a package slip, but that doesn't constitute shipping.

I could easily print out a package slip from UPS and ship in two days, or I can state that I shipped and print the slip an hour from now.

But we're not talking about shipping. We're talking about receiving, then posting the proof. In this case the shipper is posting the proof for the receiver.

Also: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/1559-whats-shipped-nonsense-pandering-gamblers.html

Quote
Na, I just didn't want to have to take a sword to myself, so we pulled an Avalon and delivered a paid unit to a developer that had an order with us. Avalon did the same thing when they "shipped" in January, so apparently that's a thing now.

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April 02, 2013, 05:39:46 AM
Last edit: April 02, 2013, 06:07:58 AM by Micon
 #215

Obviously Josh wants to say "shipped" because he's extremely pressured and stressed and whether he has "shipped" or not is the main metric of whether or not he is doing his job.

Shipped means, you know, on some kind of transport. Ship. Like on the water. Moving. That's where the word comes from at least.

I don't know why Josh complains about forum trolls picking apart everything he says, and then goes and makes such loose statements like "we've shipped" when they have a usable dev unit. It's begging for it. Who is really the troll..

Josh Zerlan, clearly, is extremely persuasive.  

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201301/are-you-being-manipulated-social-puppeteer

read that link guys.  please?  JZ is a classic social puppeteer, the "The Self-Centered/Narcissist" variety fits him best, although he exudes elements of all.

Quote from: a fucking FBI agent, Joe Navarro, google him
The self-centered, self-absorbed narcissist needs an adoring audience to fawn over them - ever pliant. There is no shortage of these individuals, including those who will fall for them and whatever it is they are peddling. Whether it is a new way of doing business (think Enron), a new religion (think Jonestown, Guyana), or a superior empire (Third Reich). The self-centered/narcissistic personality needs a willing audience to manipulate, no matter how small, so long as they are blindly obedient and deferential. As such, the narcissist often chooses a profession, guild, organization, occupation, or a job where he or she can manipulate others or the system like a puppeteer. Through their words and actions, intended to impress and seduce, they control lives, thoughts, and perceptions to achieve their objective.

They pull on your strings to make you believe in them, follow them, and act on their behalf. Their grandiosity and sense of entitlement has no bounds which, when coupled with their ability to manipulate others, shocks us [[[[[[[[ Micon insert: I think we are all shocked by Josh's actions on these boards.  His outright disrespect, aimed at many different posters makes BFL customer and whistleblowers alike gasp.  Our jaws drop at his brazen personal attacks.]]]]]]]]] They can be arrested snorting coke but still get reelected (e.g., Marion Barry); in high office they get charged with corruption yet manage to snag television time (think of Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich; they start wars with the ease of one starting a shower (think Saddam Hussein), or they become captains of industry (e.g., Jeffrey Skilling), at the expense of those who must be servile at all times to them.

In interpersonal relationships, they are always performing perception management so that they come out on top. In a personal setting, at home, spouses pay a heavy price. When they can no longer tolerate their self-centered husband or wife any more, they realize that all they have to show for their efforts and dedications is exhaustion and the feeling that they were used. They have little to show for their loyalty and unwavering fidelity, which was at times exacted from them, and there is no sense that they were ever truly appreciated.

Betsofbetco.in  / coinjedi please don't fall for this shit.  It's so clear what the right answer is.

IMO it is extremely weak that after observing some JZ spin in the BFL chat you put this statement in question. 

The evidence is overwhelming that BFL didn't ship.  

Damnit, this is exactly how I felt on Supreme Court "can the gay ppl marry" day...

"Are we *really* arguing about this when the answer is so clear?"

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Nancarrow
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April 02, 2013, 06:06:25 AM
 #216

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

Thanks for responding so quickly to this. By all means take a few days. I'd hate to be you.  Smiley I think your two uses of scare quotes sum up the sliminess of this whole situation perfectly.

Quote from: luke-jr
Please note that I have physically handled my unit, and BFL has it at their office now only at my own request that they keep it there for the time being.
As I understand it, BFL's "shipping" refers to their Batch 1 which has special shipping constraints. The plan to provide units to developers in advance, including the ones I paid for such as this Little Single, has been there all along, so it would be unreasonable IMO to exclude it from the bet.
I believe you should be able to verify that I have no stake in the bet (unless it's semi-anonymous or something); I have no objections if you wish to disclose that.

You, though... you're a whore.


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April 02, 2013, 06:08:59 AM
 #217

Quote
Before April 1st 2013, at least one BFL customer with a bitcointalk.org forum account established prior to the bet's opening date shall post detailed and credible photos of the device on the forum, including photos of it operating, and report its hashrate. This customer cannot be a BFL employee.

Show me the post where Luke reported its hashrate.

It's visible in the picture.

Is an image a report? I thought a report is something like, "The unit is hashing at..."

Of all the pigfucky things in Luke's OP, that's what you want to quibble over?

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April 02, 2013, 06:41:25 AM
 #218

Hello everyone,

As it is part of running a betting service, sometimes we have to make some decisions that will not please all of our users. This is certainly one of these cases. I agree that the bet description statements are barely satisfied but the bet is actually on "shipping" of a commercial product. To the best of our judgment the pictured device is still an internal development unit within the company premises, even if it is somehow "owned" by a non-employee. As far as I can see even BFL doesn't officially claim shipping. Under these circumstances we can not rule the statement as false. Our decision is currently not final and we will be listening your input for a few days before the final decision. Feel free to raise your opinion.

FWIW, I agree, having an in house prototype a dev is working on isn't "shipped".

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JordanL
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April 02, 2013, 06:57:15 AM
 #219

Isn't one of the issues that the terms of this specific bet doesn't say anything about shipping or shipped??
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April 02, 2013, 07:01:24 AM
 #220

sorry a prototype is NOT shipped.

If I produce 10 boards with crap hanging off them and screws holding them to a table , then supply them to developers  that does not count as shipping.

If it were, then Tom could also claim he had "shipped" ,since he also had a prototype that  Dave saw.

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