Offering PayPal for Bitcoin? You're likely to be labeled a scammer - Read why

[deepceleron]

There have been an increasing number of posts from recently registered users wanting to buy bitcoins with PayPal. While new users may indeed be enthusiastic about Bitcoin and be accustomed to using PayPal for prior purchases, this type of request is also exactly what scammers do to steal bitcoins. It is relatively simple to charge back or dispute any PayPal payment after receiving irrevocable bitcoins, and scam purchases are used as a way to empty stolen PayPal accounts.

Traditional payment networks (including PayPal) suffer inherent weaknesses:

• Some payment fraud is unavoidable,
• Completely non-reversible transactions are not possible; payment processors are involved in disputes,
• Identity fraud and remote account takeover using stolen credentials are possible,
• Payment processors can block funds and freeze accounts,
• You must provide your credit card or account number to sites, which can be stolen by hackers to spend your money.

Bitcoin has none of these problems:

• Confirmed Bitcoin payments are absolutely trustable,
• Payments are non-reversible; money cannot be recalled by the sender,
• Identity theft is a non-issue - payment recipients don't need to obtain the identity of buyers or store personal information to take payments,
• Nobody else can interfere with your Bitcoin balance or your ability to send or receive money,
• You are in control of your money - when you send a payment, the recipient or hackers cannot make other fraudulent withdraws from your wallet.

Why is it difficult to purchase Bitcoins with your old-fashioned money?

If this is the fault of Bitcoin, it is because Bitcoin is too good. If you receive a payment with Bitcoin, you can be 100% sure that the money is yours and it can't be disputed or taken back out of your wallet. PayPal, Credit cards, ACH checking transfer and money wires, Chase Quickpay, Dwolla, and most any other banking payments, however, can be reversed - they are less trustworthy than the Bitcoins you are trying to buy.

This is why even Bitcoin exchanges have rigorous verification procedures - they need to verify your identity thoroughly, not because of Bitcoin, but because they are taking your government currency, transferred through banks and payment processors, which is fundamentally problematic. Exchanges that only deal with Bitcoin-based virtual currencies (such as Bitcoin to Namecoin) have no such identity requirements.

In addition, PayPal specifically disallows currency exchanges, and are Bitcoin-hostile. When you complain that you were ripped off, it's just as likely your account will be frozen.

Prohibited Activities

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

...

    relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other "get rich quick" schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, (c) are associated with purchases of annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems, off-shore banking or transactions to finance or refinance debts funded by a credit card, (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item, (e) are by payment processors to collect payments on behalf of merchants, (f), are associated with the sale of traveler's checks or money orders, (h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses, or (i) involve certain credit repair, debt settlement services, credit transactions or insurance activities.

So how can you obtain bitcoins, if nobody on the Internet can tell the difference between you and a foreign crime syndicate? If you don't wish to go through the lengthy verification procedures on exchanges, I recommend you first investigate local traders who are willing to exchange bitcoins in person. Sites such as https://localbitcoins.com/ or http://www.tradebitcoin.com/ may help you find local Bitcoin users. Also, Bitcoin is for commerce - sell something and accept Bitcoin!

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[Nito]

What about gift paypal paments? Quick easy no seller commision and unreversible

[tysat]

Stickied for now

[deepceleron]

What about gift paypal paments? Quick easy no seller commision and unreversible

When these payments are sent to you from an account that has been hacked into and the original owner complains, or the payment is funded with a stolen or disputed credit card, you'll find out quickly how reversible PayPal is. PayPal isn't going to be left holding the bag, they pass their fraud losses on to you.

[zenid]

Thanks for the useful info! I had no idea that Paypal could issue refunds even for cash gifts. Scary!

[cryptotrade]

Fascinating information.

[Ortulas]

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

[Ion]

thanks for this post

sums up what I've been telling a friend in a much more coherent manner 

[GarlandGuitar]

Thank you for this advice!

[infebious]

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

It's not the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal - it's the risk of selling bitcoins for paypal.  Example:  you sell me 1 bitcoin and I buy it by paying you $100 thru paypal.  Once I receive the bitcoin from you I file a dispute on paypal.  Paypal reverses the transaction and gives me back my $100.  Now I have 1 Bitcoin I didn't have to start with, and my $100 in my paypal account.  You on the other hand have lost 1 bitcoin and have no additional money in paypal.

[navin306]

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

When buying material things, there is recorded delivery, posting receipt that can be used as evidence for the dispute by the seller. There is no evidence left to show paypal that you have sent your money, however even if there was, i think buying btc is against paypal rules aniway so..

I would say the safest way would be to open an account in a currency exchange (mt gox, btc-e, etc) and buy/sell from there since they will intermediate the exchange and you have no contact with the buyer or seller.

[cataurius]

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

When buying material things, there is recorded delivery, posting receipt that can be used as evidence for the dispute by the seller. There is no evidence left to show paypal that you have sent your money, however even if there was, i think buying btc is against paypal rules aniway so..

I would say the safest way would be to open an account in a currency exchange (mt gox, btc-e, etc) and buy/sell from there since they will intermediate the exchange and you have no contact with the buyer or seller.

Aside from the ethical questions with paypal policy, you can always let them transfer your spare balance to your "real" bank account to then buy btc through a trustworthy exchange.
Also, btc-otc of you absolutely want to lose your paypal dollars

[hiima]

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

There is no way of truly confirming delivery of bitcoins.

[Luckybit]

There have been an increasing number of posts from recently registered users requesting purchases of bitcoins with PayPal. While new users may indeed be enthusiastic about Bitcoin and be accustomed to using PayPal for prior purchases, this type of request is also exactly what scammers do to steal bitcoins.

Traditional payment networks (including PayPal) suffer inherent weaknesses:

• Some payment fraud is unavoidable,
• Completely non-reversible transactions are not possible; payment processors are involved in disputes,
• Identity fraud and remote account takeover using stolen credentials are possible,
• Payment processors can block funds and freeze accounts,
• You must provide your credit card or account number to sites, which can be stolen by hackers to spend your money.

Bitcoin has none of these problems:

• Confirmed Bitcoin payments are absolutely trustable,
• Payments are non-reversible; money cannot be recalled by the sender,
• Identity theft is a non-issue - payment recipients don't need validate the identity of buyers to trust their payment,
• Nobody else can interfere with your Bitcoin balance or your ability to send or receive money,
• You are in control of your money - when you send a payment, the recipient or hackers cannot make fraudulent withdraws from your wallet.

Why is it difficult to purchase Bitcoins with your old-fashioned money?

If this is the fault of Bitcoin, it is because Bitcoin is too good. If you receive a payment with Bitcoin, you can be 100% sure that the money is yours and it can't be disputed or taken back out of your wallet. Credit cards, ACH checking transfer and money wires, Chase Quickpay, PayPal, Dwolla, and most any other banking payments, however, can be reversed - they are less trustworthy than the Bitcoins you are trying to buy. The person offering to buy Bitcoins with PayPal may either dispute the payment with PayPal, reverse the payment through their credit card processor, or even may be using a hacked or stolen PayPal account.

This is why even Bitcoin exchanges have rigorous verification procedures - they need to verify your identity thoroughly, not because of Bitcoin, but because they are taking your government currency, transferred through banks and payment processors, which is fundamentally problematic. Exchanges that only deal with Bitcoin-based virtual currencies (such as Bitcoin to Namecoin) have no such identity requirements.

In addition, PayPal specifically disallows currency exchanges, and are Bitcoin-hostile. When you complain that you were ripped off, it's just as likely your account will be frozen.

Prohibited Activities

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

...

    relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other "get rich quick" schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, (c) are associated with purchases of annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems, off-shore banking or transactions to finance or refinance debts funded by a credit card, (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item, (e) are by payment processors to collect payments on behalf of merchants, (f), are associated with the sale of traveler's checks or money orders, (h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses, or (i) involve certain credit repair, debt settlement services, credit transactions or insurance activities.

So how can you obtain bitcoins, if nobody on the Internet can tell the difference between you and a foreign crime syndicate? If you don't wish to go through the lengthy verification procedures on exchanges, I recommend you first investigate local traders who are willing to exchange bitcoins in person. Sites such as https://localbitcoins.com/ or http://www.tradebitcoin.com/ may help you find local Bitcoin users. Also, Bitcoin is for commerce - sell something and accept Bitcoin!

So what is the best and safest way to purchase 20-30 Bitcoins? Tell me so I can go buy some. The way it is now it's like looking for Bitcoins in the black market because all the banks seem to have a conspiracy not to  work with you.

[zeroday]

After paypal scamming me for 30 sale on eBay I scammed PayPal for 330 as revenge. Sent a paypal payment to another account I had selecting direct debit as payment. Cancelled the direct debit and removed card details from account. Received 330 on my other account immediately and withdrew into bank. A few days later my account is -330 in big red letters. Few emails from PayPal and was passed onto a debt collection company. Informed them I had no credit agreement with PayPal and any futher contact would be harrassment and would inform the police. Heard nothing for ages and still using PayPal. If PayPal can make their own rules and scam people, play the same game to them. Is easy to scam PayPal aswell as they guarantee your direct debit providing there is enough funds in the account when initiated. Time to get your own back!

http://complaints.paypalsucks.com/
 

P.S. Just remember an axiom: PAYPAL ALWAYS RIPS YOU OFF.

[wonderbash]

There have been an increasing number of posts from recently registered users requesting purchases of bitcoins with PayPal. While new users may indeed be enthusiastic about Bitcoin and be accustomed to using PayPal for prior purchases, this type of request is also exactly what scammers do to steal bitcoins.

Traditional payment networks (including PayPal) suffer inherent weaknesses:

• Some payment fraud is unavoidable,
• Completely non-reversible transactions are not possible; payment processors are involved in disputes,
• Identity fraud and remote account takeover using stolen credentials are possible,
• Payment processors can block funds and freeze accounts,
• You must provide your credit card or account number to sites, which can be stolen by hackers to spend your money.

Bitcoin has none of these problems:

• Confirmed Bitcoin payments are absolutely trustable,
• Payments are non-reversible; money cannot be recalled by the sender,
• Identity theft is a non-issue - payment recipients don't need validate the identity of buyers to trust their payment,
• Nobody else can interfere with your Bitcoin balance or your ability to send or receive money,
• You are in control of your money - when you send a payment, the recipient or hackers cannot make fraudulent withdraws from your wallet.

Why is it difficult to purchase Bitcoins with your old-fashioned money?

If this is the fault of Bitcoin, it is because Bitcoin is too good. If you receive a payment with Bitcoin, you can be 100% sure that the money is yours and it can't be disputed or taken back out of your wallet. Credit cards, ACH checking transfer and money wires, Chase Quickpay, PayPal, Dwolla, and most any other banking payments, however, can be reversed - they are less trustworthy than the Bitcoins you are trying to buy. The person offering to buy Bitcoins with PayPal may either dispute the payment with PayPal, reverse the payment through their credit card processor, or even may be using a hacked or stolen PayPal account.

This is why even Bitcoin exchanges have rigorous verification procedures - they need to verify your identity thoroughly, not because of Bitcoin, but because they are taking your government currency, transferred through banks and payment processors, which is fundamentally problematic. Exchanges that only deal with Bitcoin-based virtual currencies (such as Bitcoin to Namecoin) have no such identity requirements.

In addition, PayPal specifically disallows currency exchanges, and are Bitcoin-hostile. When you complain that you were ripped off, it's just as likely your account will be frozen.

Prohibited Activities

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

...

    relate to transactions that (a) show the personal information of third parties in violation of applicable law, (b) support pyramid or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other "get rich quick" schemes or certain multi-level marketing programs, (c) are associated with purchases of annuities or lottery contracts, lay-away systems, off-shore banking or transactions to finance or refinance debts funded by a credit card, (d) are for the sale of certain items before the seller has control or possession of the item, (e) are by payment processors to collect payments on behalf of merchants, (f), are associated with the sale of traveler's checks or money orders, (h) involve currency exchanges or check cashing businesses, or (i) involve certain credit repair, debt settlement services, credit transactions or insurance activities.

So how can you obtain bitcoins, if nobody on the Internet can tell the difference between you and a foreign crime syndicate? If you don't wish to go through the lengthy verification procedures on exchanges, I recommend you first investigate local traders who are willing to exchange bitcoins in person. Sites such as https://localbitcoins.com/ or http://www.tradebitcoin.com/ may help you find local Bitcoin users. Also, Bitcoin is for commerce - sell something and accept Bitcoin!

So what is the best and safest way to purchase 20-30 Bitcoins? Tell me so I can go buy some. The way it is now it's like looking for Bitcoins in the black market because all the banks seem to have a conspiracy not to  work with you.

If you want to be really safe, go where most the bitcoins trade are: mtgox
or try localbitcoins and see if you have any seller around you. Good luck.

[m1bxd]

If you want to be really safe, go where most the bitcoins trade are: mtgox
or try localbitcoins and see if you have any seller around you. Good luck.

Wonderbash,

I second that, apart from mtgox is only suitable for large purchases of BTC due to friction costs of charging up account.
I exchange locally for localbitcoins in the UK. But if look around the world even in the US say LA where I have a Brit friend who is married out there, there are few people on the ground.

Cheers MX

[Luckybit]

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

How do you know they wont beat you up and rob you in person?
This is one of the reasons Bitcoin kept that underworld stigma for so long...

There has to be an easier way. Why not use a 900 hotline or Skype Prime? Tell me why not?

[Luckybit]

Isn't the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal the same risk as buying anything else with paypal?  What is considered to be the safest way to do this other than going to someone in person and making sure you get the cash in hand?

It's not the risk of buying bitcoins with paypal - it's the risk of selling bitcoins for paypal.  Example:  you sell me 1 bitcoin and I buy it by paying you $100 thru paypal.  Once I receive the bitcoin from you I file a dispute on paypal.  Paypal reverses the transaction and gives me back my $100.  Now I have 1 Bitcoin I didn't have to start with, and my $100 in my paypal account.  You on the other hand have lost 1 bitcoin and have no additional money in paypal.

Let me tell you a true story of what I've seen go wrong. If someone tries to buy Bitcoin with a Moneygram or Moneypak and the number on it is invalid then what? The buyer has no way to know with 100% certainty that this was the case, and must have faith in the seller. The seller also has no way to know with 100% certainty that the buyer didn't use an invalid card. Honestly my solution is a 1-900-BitCoin phone number. I should be able to call that number and have the cost instantly charged to my phonebill.

Another way, less stealthy, find a known location where anyone can meet to buy Bitcoins with cash in person. No meeting in random spots down dark alleys at midnight but there should be a Bitcoin coffeshop or I should be able to go to any Starbucks with cash and get Bitcoins.

Now here is the problem with Cash, with Cash you gotta worry about getting killed for it, or beaten up and robbed when it's a big enough amount. Bitcoins aren't cheap anymore, they are $100+ a coin now so now it's in the dangerous territory that drugs inhabit of being just cheap enough where people can afford it but just expensive enough that people will rob each other over it. These dangers exist primarily for the buyer not the seller imo.

[crookedfingers]

go bitcoin, down with paypal