coinjedi / betsofbitco.in SCAMMERS: Declares "Push" on obvious win for BFL bet

[Beepbop]

Even though it's clear that BFL didn't really "ship", the false side has a very good case according to the bet's conditions. So I think that Bets of Bitcoin did the right thing.

Did you notice that the title is considered part of the conditions of the bet, and the the site operator admits this?

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[simonk83]

I have nothing to do with this bet, but this whole thing is utter bullshit.    CLEARLY the "true" side should have won, and I can't believe anyone actually has the gall to try and profess otherwise.

Luke, you're full of shit.  You always have been, and I've got no idea why this community continues to put up with you.  The amount of drama you've caused over the years is ridiculous.

BoB, you should be ashamed into being talked into declaring this a draw (you must have been pushed into it as no-one in their right mind would willingly declare this a draw unless they had something to gain, or lose, from it).    This is the end of your site anyway I would have thought, who's going to trust you now?

Everyone else, keep fighting for "justice" to be served here.  Too often we let people get away with scamming on this forum and it's about time that ended.

[KGambler]

• It is not clear whether or not Luke-jr is a BFL employee.  He continues to not answer when asked if he is/has received compensation from BFL. [3]  At the least, it looks like he's getting his order bumped to the front of the line.

Actually, it is pretty clear that Luke is an employee of some sort (contractor, etc.).  Phinnaeus Gage dug up this quote from Luke in the larger thread concerning this scam:

Butterfly Labs, of course, knows this fact because I have been working with them since early 2012 when their FPGA products were first released.

That's a direct quote from Luke-Jr.  It's also clear that he is being compensated by BFL in various ways and that he is helping them to develop the shitty prototype he claims is a finished product.  He refused to answer questions as to the nature of this compensation.

In the same thread, Luke-Jr. also said that he talks to Josh Zerlan every day between midnight and 2:00 AM.  I really don't know why you guys keep trying to engage with Luke as if he is going to correspond with you in good faith.  It's obvious he is one of the co-conspirators of this scam.

Bogart, that is terrible what happened to you.  You have every right to be furious.  They stole a large sum of money from you.  There is no question it was theft, plain and simple.

[simonk83]

I'm not giving him a scammer tag. By using betsofbitco.in, you agreed that betsofbitco.in staff would be the ones to decide events. It's none of my business how he does this.

Shouldn't you at least pull all of the false ad Josh is running right now?

Where's the profit in that?  

[KGambler]

Even though it's clear that BFL didn't really "ship", the false side has a very good case according to the bet's conditions. So I think that Bets of Bitcoin did the right thing.

Did you notice that the title is considered part of the conditions of the bet, and the the site operator admits this?

He seems to have missed quite a lot, like Luke being an employee, EST being defined as the relevant timezone on the BoB site, etc.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Shouldn't you at least pull all of the false ad Josh is running right now?

What's false about them? I tend to think that BFL will ship at some point.

The ads running on the forums mention product specs that BFL is no longer offering.

They've specced down all of their products earlier today.

On it! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=167585.0

[greyhawk]

Shouldn't you at least pull all of the false ad Josh is running right now?

What's false about them? I tend to think that BFL will ship at some point.

The ads running on the forums mention product specs that BFL is no longer offering.

They've specced down all of their products earlier today.

On it! https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=167585.0

Thanks. I misplaced the term for that tactic somewhere in my brain. "Bait & Switch", "Bait & Switch", "Bait & Switch" Gotta remember that.

[creativex]

Thanks. I misplaced the term for that tactic somewhere in my brain. "Bait & Switch", "Bait & Switch", "Bait & Switch" Gotta remember that.

I thought it was about fishing with sticks when I first seent it and I was like...dafuq?!?

[Matthew N. Wright]

As someone who was scammer tagged for pulling this exact stunt as a prank in November 2012, I'm actually kind of pissed at Theymos for not following through. I'm also jealous of LukeJr, BFLJosh, BFL, and BetsofBitcoin. They pulled this stunt way better than I did. Bravo. You are far better trolls than I am.

The sad thing is, I didn't even have an escrow and never accepted money. Betsofbitcoin took money from the betters. That's actual scamming.

[Syke]

I actually considered betting on the true side of this bet several months ago, but I decided not to do so because the wording was far too ambiguous and general. I thought at the time that the bet was created by a BFL supporter and written to be very difficult for them to lose...

Even though it's clear that BFL didn't really "ship", the false side has a very good case according to the bet's conditions. So I think that Bets of Bitcoin did the right thing.

Which product "shipped" reached 75% of the announced hashrate. 1, 2, or 3?

1)    BitForce SC Jalapeno: a USB powered coffee warmer providing 3.5 GH/s, priced at under $149
2)    BitForce SC Single: a standalone unit providing roughly 40 GH/s, priced at $1,299
3)    BitForce SC Mini Rig: a case & rack mount server providing 1 TH/s, priced at $29,899

[theymos]

As someone who was scammer tagged for pulling this exact stunt as a prank in November 2012, I'm actually kind of pissed at Theymos for not following through. I'm also jealous of LukeJr, BFLJosh, BFL, and BetsofBitcoin. They pulled this stunt way better than I did. Bravo. You are far better trolls than I am.

The sad thing is, I didn't even have an escrow and never accepted money. Betsofbitcoin took money from the betters. That's actual scamming.

This is totally different:
- You said that you would get a scammer tag if you didn't pay.
- You scammed on this forum.
- You broke explicit agreements. BoB doesn't have agreements that dictate exactly how they will decide events.

He seems to have missed quite a lot, like Luke being an employee, EST being defined as the relevant timezone on the BoB site, etc.

Luke-Jr is not an employee. The true side might have won due to the timezone thing and some other factors, but it's close enough that BoB is justified in calling it a draw IMO. It'd be different (though not enough for a scammer tag) if it was BoB's policy to never decide events as draws if at all possible, but they seem to decide events as draws frequently when there would be significant controversy if either side won.

[Entropy-uc]

Shouldn't you at least pull all of the false ad Josh is running right now?

What's false about them? I tend to think that BFL will ship at some point.

The ads running on the forums mention product specs that BFL is no longer offering.

They've specced down all of their products earlier today.

^ THIS

[MPOE-PR]

As someone who was scammer tagged for pulling this exact stunt as a prank in November 2012, I'm actually kind of pissed at Theymos for not following through. I'm also jealous of LukeJr, BFLJosh, BFL, and BetsofBitcoin. They pulled this stunt way better than I did. Bravo. You are far better trolls than I am.

The sad thing is, I didn't even have an escrow and never accepted money. Betsofbitcoin took money from the betters. That's actual scamming.

This is totally different:
- You said that you would get a scammer tag if you didn't pay.
- You scammed on this forum.
- You broke explicit agreements. BoB doesn't have agreements that dictate exactly how they will decide events.

He seems to have missed quite a lot, like Luke being an employee, EST being defined as the relevant timezone on the BoB site, etc.

Luke-Jr is not an employee. The true side might have won due to the timezone thing and some other factors, but it's close enough that BoB is justified in calling it a draw IMO. It'd be different (though not enough for a scammer tag) if it was BoB's policy to never decide events as draws if at all possible, but they seem to decide events as draws frequently when there would be significant controversy if either side won.

I'm completely boggled that you'd dirty yourself by taking that nonsensical stand. I mean...not say anything, I can see, ignore the whole thing, I can see, propose the losing side had a prayer in Hell!? Weird.

[Syke]

The true side might have won due to the timezone thing and some other factors, but it's close enough that BoB is justified in calling it a draw IMO.

No, it's not even close. There are numerous points that are clear cut to anyone with half a brain.

I sure wish I could use the ignore button on admins.

[Dalkore]

At this point I'll go ahead and reveal that I am the bet's creator, and that I initially took a large position on the "True" side.  By ruling the way they did, BoB effectively took from me over 150 BTC in potential winnings and commissions that I feel should rightfully be mine.

Sure, I made mistakes when I made the bet (which BoB had an opportunity to correct when they approved the bet), but I still feel like "True" is pretty clearly the correct outcome, based on multiple points.  Some of those being:

• BFL shipped nothing.  The bet title clearly is about BFL *shipping* a Bitforce SC product.  Coinjedi has said himself that the bet title is a part of the bet. [1]

• The pictures were posted after midnight.  No matter whether you go by GMT, Eastern time (official BoB time [2]), or Central time (which I believe is BFL time and also Luke-Jr time).  Sure, the pics were arguably taken before midnight, but the bet clearly says they had to be *posted* before April.

• The pictures were not credible.  They were taken by Josh/Inaba, a BFL employee, and were of a device that was pretty clearly sitting on a test bench at BFL.  The bet clearly says the pictures must be credible.

• The pictures claim to show a product hashing at about 25GH/s, which Luke-Jr says in a Little Single.  There was no such thing as a Little Single when the bet was made.  The 3 Bitforce SC products the bet concerns, and their hashrates concerning the bet are those listed in the post linked in the Bet.

• It is not clear whether or not Luke-jr is a BFL employee.  He continues to not answer when asked if he is/has received compensation from BFL. [3]  At the least, it looks like he's getting his order bumped to the front of the line.

My position appears to be overwhelmingly supported by public opinion on the forums. [4]  Opinion Coinjedi solicited I might add.

Sure BoB (and Luke-Jr and Josh/Inaba and BFL) will lose face over this, but that does nothing to fill my wallet, and history is quickly forgotten.

I'm feeling cheated and a little butthurt about it.  Wouldn't you?






[1]: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.msg1726858#msg1726858

[2]: http://betsofbitco.in/help, in "What is the difference between deadline and event date?": "All dates refer to end of day Eastern Time."

[3]: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.msg1729969#msg1729969

[4]: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=165902.0

I think coinjedi should do something.  This isn't right.  That is literally almost $20,000 USD. 

[Dalkore]

Luke-Jr, it really seems you are taking both sides of the fence.   Above on page 6  AND I QUOTE:  "This bet is clearly already lost for the pro-BFL side." BUT THEN "If you were on the True side, then you should be happy with the draw, since it was the False side that should have won.".  Which one is it?  Also, you mention technicalities but then at the same time discount the title like the intent of the wasn't the "shipping" of BFL SC orders to customer(s).  Even you, along with Josh and Coinjedi mention Avalon Batch #1 as a quasi-standard for which people are looking to see the ruling on this bet.   Is it just me or does something not feel right about how people are acting about this that are agreeing with either a "draw/push" or "false/pro-bfl shipped".    

Update:  Edited. I guess this was for another bet that I missed, I really am trying to keep both sides evaluated properly.

[KGambler]

When he said the pro-BFL side certainly lost, he was talking about a different bet that someone had linked to.  It's not the bet in question (which the pro-BFL side also certainly lost, despite what he says haha).

[Dalkore]

BoB doesn't have agreements that dictate exactly how they will decide events.

Does that really matter when "you" are setting policy for scammer tags on BitCoinTalk.org?  In the end, we look to you for guidance on these issues as the referee of our community.  When even the people that would have lost the or "technically" could of have won (Luke, Josh and CoinJedi) are making statements that either admit defeat or set a precedent that makes it seem clear who won, doesn't that just not feel right?  I am not saying the scam tag is the solution but you should atleast give the "true" side more credit than this. 

When you have the person who is being used for evidence to decide the bet giving guidance on how we should interpret things, you know you have gone off course.

[Dalkore]

When he said the pro-BFL side certainly lost, he was talking about a different bet that someone had linked to.  It's not the bet in question (which the pro-BFL side also certainly lost, despite what he says haha).

Thank you, I am getting confused with this thread, even I am human .  I will edit it now.

[Dusty]

Since there is so much different opinions on that matter, and since the people that has the power to define events (BoB, theymos) seems against the vast majority:

what about putting this whole debate to http://www.judge.me/ and then everybody accept whatever the outcome will be?

CoinJedi:  would you accept the sentence of judge.me?

Theymos:  would you accept the sentence of judge.me?