coinjedi / betsofbitco.in SCAMMERS: Declares "Push" on obvious win for BFL bet

[Luke-Jr]

Since there is so much different opinions on that matter, and since the people that has the power to define events (BoB, theymos) seems against the vast majority:

what about putting this whole debate to http://www.judge.me/ and then everybody accept whatever the outcome will be?

CoinJedi:  would you accept the sentence of judge.me?

Theymos:  would you accept the sentence of judge.me?

The real question is, will everyone else here?
The fact is, they already agreed to accept the judgement of BetsofBitco.in by participating in the bet.
Yet now that they're unhappy with the outcome, they've decided they won't accept it.
Why should anyone expect them to treat Judge.me in any other way?

[1713586104]

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[1713586104]

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[BadBear]

Since there is so much different opinions on that matter, and since the people that has the power to define events (BoB, theymos) seems against the vast majority:

what about putting this whole debate to http://www.judge.me/ and then everybody accept whatever the outcome will be?

CoinJedi:  would you accept the sentence of judge.me?

Theymos:  would you accept the sentence of judge.me?

Why are you asking theymos? I'm pretty sure he doesn't give a shit what decision is made, just that he isn't giving a tag over it (you know, what the thread is about?). I wouldn't either. If you aren't happy with BoB's decisions, then settle it with them or don't use their service, make your own, whatever.

What happens if judge.me decides a way you don't like? New scammer tag thread? Make an account called judge.me in order to tag it? You guys are ridiculous.

[Micon]

Luke-Jr is not an employee. The true side might have won due to the timezone thing and some other factors, but it's close enough that BoB is justified in calling it a draw IMO. It'd be different (though not enough for a scammer tag) if it was BoB's policy to never decide events as draws if at all possible, but they seem to decide events as draws frequently when there would be significant controversy if either side won.

1)  You are also not qualified to judge betting statements

2)  This one wasn't close.  Here is the short list of those saying that Draw was acceptable:

coinjedi
Theymos
nathaneees

There are a few hundred users that think it's an easy decision, some of which are betting against me in other BFL-facing wagers.  You see 2 giant threads calling them scammers.  Really think a few hundred of us are just irrational and angry at losing fair and square?  This one is so lopsided what is right and what is wrong, and once again a situation proves Theymos is not impartial.

It has seemed to me, for a long time, for whatever reason, this community makes a lot of pro-BFL decisions.  Theymos has made them in the past, as has gmaxwell, and now coinjedi makes a pro-BFL move that will destroy his site.  This is not something that is shocking to me or should be to you guys.  

It is plain and simply outright theft.  There is unlikely to be any punishment except what will certainly be a very noticeable absence of action at BoB.

[Dusty]

I explain better my proposal: it's obvious that coinjedi has the right to choose whatever side he wants on every bet, this is not for debate since one accepts that condition while using BoB.

What I'm asking in this case is there is the willingness from coinjedi to validate from professionals his choice for this particular bet since so many people thinks that the result was not fair  and this is giving him a very bud reputation.
It seems like he choose the outcome of that bet to protect the losses of someone (maybe his own too? Who knows).

So, what I'm proposing is to let professionals judge the result of the bet, and verify if his choice (a draw) was a good one, not to verify if he could choose whatever outcome he prefers (of course he can).

If the outcome of judge.me is consistent with the one of coinjedi everybody should stop complaining and his reputation could be at least partially restored.
If instead the judge.me outcome is that the bet result should have been a different one, act accordingly.

If coinjedi would not act as defined, theymous could give him the scammer/unthrustyword label.

[borgfish]

i havent logged in for years, but i am actively reading most of the funny stuff here.

this is soooooo funny, bitcoin wild west at its best.
i would either inform some authorities to check wether the site is legal or i would ask some lawyer if he wants to go after the "not won" amount, maybe he would if he could keep it all...

[BadBear]

There are a few hundred users that think it's an easy decision, some of which are betting against me in other BFL-facing wagers.  You see 2 giant threads calling them scammers.  Really think a few hundred of us are just irrational and angry at losing fair and square?  This one is so lopsided what is right and what is wrong, and once again a situation proves Theymos is not impartial.

It has seemed to me, for a long time, for whatever reason, this community makes a lot of pro-BFL decisions.  Theymos has made them in the past, as has gmaxwell, and now coinjedi makes a pro-BFL move that will destroy his site.  This is not something that is shocking to me or should be to you guys.  

It is plain and simply outright theft.  There is unlikely to be any punishment except what will certainly be a very noticeable absence of action at BoB.

Those "hundreds of users" have money at stake, so of course they're gonna disagree. Doesn't make them any more right than someone else just because there are more of them.

There were also lots and lots ofusers who called you a troll, and begged for you to.be banned, should we have caved just because there were more of them than those who defended you? Majority rules isn't always right.

I'm absolutely amazed that you of all people, who was in the minority fighting the majority (Pirate and his shills) for such a long time, would turn around and use the majority card when it suits you. What a hypocrite.

[Dusty]

I'm absolutely amazed that you of all people, who was in the minority fighting the majority (Pirate and his shills) for such a long time, would turn around and use the majority card when it suits you. What a hypocrite.

So you would agree too, to use a third party professional to understand if the bet was a draw or not?

[BadBear]

I'm absolutely amazed that you of all people, who was in the minority fighting the majority (Pirate and his shills) for such a long time, would turn around and use the majority card when it suits you. What a hypocrite.

So you would agree too, to use a third party professional to understand if the bet was a draw or not?

If I'm understanding you properly...If BoB agreed to 3rd party arbitration, then did not follow their findings, then yes IMO that's tag worthy.

Is that what you're asking?

[Beepbop]

Those "hundreds of users" have money at stake, so of course they're gonna disagree. Doesn't make them any more right than someone else just because there are more of them.

That those who didn't bet anything are overwhelmingly on one side should tell you something, but I guess if you're not able to see what side is correct just from the undisputed facts, you wouldn't care that only a small cabal of BFL associates agree with you.

I'm absolutely amazed that you of all people, who was in the minority fighting the majority (Pirate and his shills) for such a long time, would turn around and use the majority card when it suits you. What a hypocrite.

Micon is annoying, but you've just provided an example of his judgment being better than most here.

[niner]

The community really needs to be warned against coinjedi and his phony escrow service.  Not only did he make an insane and obviously incorrect ruling but he provided no explanation.  Shouldn't an escrow service at least provide a summary of their judgement?

Am I right that hundreds of BTC were riding on this bet?  And that betsofbitco.in still went ahead and charged fees even after cheating the winners???

Coinjedi needs a scammer tag and betsofbitco.in should be avoided at all costs.

Luke Jr. was not only evasive in the thread linked, but he also went out of his way to deceive.  He also deserves a scammer tag IMO, but I guess that's a seperate matter.

I had no action on either side of this wager.

Total agree bets: 213.82
Total disagree bets: 334.53

above data from http://betsofbitco.in/item?id=701

[AndyRossy]

There are a few hundred users that think it's an easy decision, some of which are betting against me in other BFL-facing wagers.  You see 2 giant threads calling them scammers.  Really think a few hundred of us are just irrational and angry at losing fair and square?  This one is so lopsided what is right and what is wrong, and once again a situation proves Theymos is not impartial.

It has seemed to me, for a long time, for whatever reason, this community makes a lot of pro-BFL decisions.  Theymos has made them in the past, as has gmaxwell, and now coinjedi makes a pro-BFL move that will destroy his site.  This is not something that is shocking to me or should be to you guys.  

It is plain and simply outright theft.  There is unlikely to be any punishment except what will certainly be a very noticeable absence of action at BoB.

Those "hundreds of users" have money at stake, so of course they're gonna disagree. Doesn't make them any more right than someone else just because there are more of them.

There were also lots and lots ofusers who called you a troll, and begged for you to.be banned, should we have caved just because there were more of them than those who defended you? Majority rules isn't always right.

I'm absolutely amazed that you of all people, who was in the minority fighting the majority (Pirate and his shills) for such a long time, would turn around and use the majority card when it suits you. What a hypocrite.

It's wierd the quietness of the 300BTC bet the other way? noone shouting to win...

I guess it was somehow tied to luke / BFL, as friend or elsewise.

BoB, can you disclose the distribution of bets? Not the owner, just *if* there's a bet on the other side >100BTC? And if so, can this person come forward?

[BadBear]

Those "hundreds of users" have money at stake, so of course they're gonna disagree. Doesn't make them any more right than someone else just because there are more of them.

That those who didn't bet anything are overwhelmingly on one side should tell you something, but I guess if you're not able to see what side is correct just from the undisputed facts, you wouldn't care that only a small cabal of BFL associates agree with you.

Well then you clearly don't even know what you're talking about, I even posted in Lukes thread (before coinjedi finalized his decision) stating that for the purposes of the bet, I thought BFL did NOT ship. But don't let little facts like that get in the way  .
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163261.msg1720394#msg1720394

I don't think he deserves a scammer tag for calling a draw though.

I'm absolutely amazed that you of all people, who was in the minority fighting the majority (Pirate and his shills) for such a long time, would turn around and use the majority card when it suits you. What a hypocrite.

Micon is annoying, but you've just provided an example of his judgment being better than most here.

That was kinda the point of that part of the post, at this point I'm guessing you just read what you want to read and make up the rest though.

[Dusty]

If I'm understanding you properly...If BoB agreed to 3rd party arbitration, then did not follow their findings, then yes IMO that's tag worthy.

Is that what you're asking?

That's only half of it (damn it's so difficult to express complex concepts in a foreign language!).
The other half would be to honour the bet if an external judge would decide that the outcome was different from "draw".
But I suppose that would be difficult (i.e.: expensive) if BoB has already refunded everybody that took part in the bet.

[BadBear]

If I'm understanding you properly...If BoB agreed to 3rd party arbitration, then did not follow their findings, then yes IMO that's tag worthy.

Is that what you're asking?

That's only half of it (damn it's so difficult to express complex concepts in a foreign language!).
The other half would be to honour the bet if an external judge would decide that the outcome was different from "draw".
But I suppose that would be difficult (i.e.: expensive) if BoB has already refunded everybody that took part in the bet.

I suspected that's what you meant, which is why I was so careful with my wording.
No I couldn't do that in good conscience. People agreed to let BoB make the decision when they used their website for the bet, to take that away from them and demand they follow yet someone else's ruling because some don't agree (keep in mind, I don't necessarily agree with it either, as I already said above), wouldn't be ethical. Only if BoB agreed to that, and like you said they can't now, since they refunded all the bets already.

[BR0KK]

If I'm understanding you properly...If BoB agreed to 3rd party arbitration, then did not follow their findings, then yes IMO that's tag worthy.

Is that what you're asking?

That's only half of it (damn it's so difficult to express complex concepts in a foreign language!).
The other half would be to honour the bet if an external judge would decide that the outcome was different from "draw".
But I suppose that would be difficult (i.e.: expensive) if BoB has already refunded everybody that took part in the bet.

I suspected that's what you meant, which is why I was so careful with my wording.
No I couldn't do that in good conscience. People agreed to let BoB make the decision when they used their website for the bet, to take that away from them and demand they follow yet someone else's ruling because some don't agree (keep in mind, I don't necessarily agree with it either, as I already said above), wouldn't be ethical. Only if BoB agreed to that, and like you said they can't now, since they refunded all the bets already.

They did this kind of quick.... Seems weird to me to do this in an instant. Why not contacting bet participants and ask what they were thinking about this. Sure you get the typical "i won where is ma moneyz" people but some of them; like we've seen here; might be honest and not greedy?

Hm, this all makes no sense to debate without coinjedi or bob administrators. This is not a bitcointalk.org related issue so technically theymos and co-mods are right taking the stand not to hand out scammer tags.

On the other hand we need to have a discussion about what that famous "scammer tag" really is and to whom it may apply?  (but not here. Point me towards an existing thread if there is any?)

[Dusty]

Only if BoB agreed to that, and like you said they can't now, since they refunded all the bets already.

Of course, that's why I wrote (in essence) "if BoB is willing to accept this judgement to restore his reputation".

[BadBear]

They did this kind of quick.... Seems weird to me to do this in an instant. Why not contacting bet participants and ask what they were thinking about this. Sure you get the typical "i won where is ma moneyz" people but some of them; like we've seen here; might be honest and not greedy?

Hm, this all makes no sense to debate without coinjedi or bob administrators. This is not a bitcointalk.org related issue so technically theymos and co-mods are right taking the stand not to hand out scammer tags.

On the other hand we need to have a discussion about what that famous "scammer tag" really is and to whom it may apply?  (but not here. Point me towards an existing thread if there is any?)

There's two decent ones, one with some general discussion about scammers in general, and another where we talk about why I don't like the idea of making an official scammer policy.

Policy
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108214.0

General discussion, and what to do with scammer tags going forward.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=153221.0

[KGambler]

It's clear that neither coinjedi nor his partners in crime will be getting scammer tags.  I still think it is important to warn the community about this corrupt "prediction market".  If you know of any websites that keep lists of BTC gambling sites, please contact them and make sure they know of this scam.  Betsofbitco.in needs to be listed as a scam site so that they don't have the opportunity to steal from more innocent victims. 

I saw in the gambling forum that one site operator was proactive in removing betsofbitcoin from his "reputable" list.  There are probably some others that are not aware of the situation and are listing betsofbitcoin as a legit site.

[Bogart]

I would agree to be bound by the outcome of an arbitration service like judge.me, if the arbitration service can be shown to be reputable.  (Why is judge.me's domain registered using DomainsByProxy?)

However, for this to work, Bets of Bitcoin would need to also agree to be bound.

[Entropy-uc]

Luke-Jr is not an employee. The true side might have won due to the timezone thing and some other factors, but it's close enough that BoB is justified in calling it a draw IMO. It'd be different (though not enough for a scammer tag) if it was BoB's policy to never decide events as draws if at all possible, but they seem to decide events as draws frequently when there would be significant controversy if either side won.

It has seemed to me, for a long time, for whatever reason, this community makes a lot of pro-BFL decisions.  Theymos has made them in the past, as has gmaxwell, and now coinjedi makes a pro-BFL move that will destroy his site.   

Theymos has refused to post my ad which states:
BFL: Bald Faced Liars

His justification is that it is slander (he means libel).  Since the truth is a demonstrative defense against libel and slander, I have absolutely no concerns on that account.

I'm not sure where Theymos' heart felt concern for false statements has been every week that Josh gives an update claiming that after they finish step X they will be shipping next week.  Since there has always been a dozen or more steps to go beyond step X, every shipping claim I have seen from BFL since I stopped back in here in January has been obviously false.

And if we want to talk about libel, here is Josh posting from the same account he uses to buy ads on this forum.

I love the armchair engineers that make strong technical pronouncements on the basis of fuzzy/blurry, pixelated images of an object that measures 11mm x 11mm taken with a camera phone.  Especially pronouncements made by engineers that can't tell a reflection from a piece of underfill or who define jpeg artifacting as chipped cores. Or ones who can't tell triangles from squares or circles!

Oh Burn!  You really got me there Josh!  I'm totally stung by you.

By the way, my armchair for 15 years has looked over a Ph.D. in Engineering, and that chair is situated at Intel's packaging and assembly development division.  I've worked a senior engineer on every aspect of those activities for 856 to 1274 today.

To explain what that means in terms you are bright enough to understand:

• I know about semiconductor manufacturing 100x what you do about making up imaginary schedules
• I know about semiconductor manufacturing nearly 10x what you know about being a douchebag on the internet

Wow, you must really be a good cock sucker then.  Any engineer that can't tell a reflection from underfill or underfill from epoxy isn't worth much more than a buck fifty blow job.  Congrats on your abilities.  I would say you are quite possibly the crappiest "engineer" on the planet, given those facts.  Did that PhD come out of a crack jack box?

Next time you're under that table, keeping your job, watch the teeth.