BFL RIP OFF... price up 90%, 50GH/s for 2499$.

[creativex]

I had the same thoughts and missed out on the avalon preorders. BFL at least has pics of boxes with fans, the chips, the working unit hashing. First time someone saw an Avalon and knew it hashed was after it shipped to  jeff. So i'm content to gamble on bfl for now.

Best of luck. You do realize people sent BFL 5000 Bitcoins to pre-order minirigs in June of 2012 right? Those bitcoins would now be worth $695,000 now and the product is not only undelivered TEN MONTHS LATER, but it's been cancelled because BFL cannot even build it. Now that's what I'd call a sh1t sandwich.

A bet on BFL is a proven loser again and again.

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[glendall]

I think part of the thing with some of the BFL supporters is that they, understandably, want to believe that they didn't get ripped off, and that they made a good choice to go with BFL. So they are more inclined to be strung along by constant 'we'll ship in two weeks'.

I'd probably feel the same way if I preordered with them.

I think just logically though, if you look at the company's track record so far, I just don't see them shipping for at least another month.  Honestly I think I lost faith that BFL will be able to produce the products (they already sold) at all. Still nothing like a single completed prototype. It'd be a miracle for them to figure out the engineering problems and then ramp up to any sort of reasonable production level.

Going such lengths to 'win' the shipping bet is also a huge red flag to me. Putting that much energy into 'winning' the bet leads me to believe they aren't even working on developing the product at all. If I was them and 8 months behind or whatever, I'd be pulling 18 hour work days trying to get it done. Maybe they gave up?

How many units did they sell anyways? How many 1000's? I don't see it happening anytime soon and feel bad for people who bought in.  

edit: ya I'm going to stop commenting on BFL. I don't have any money in... my opinion doesn't matter too much on this...

[minternj]

 Lets say BT drops to $1 . Wouldn't people have said they were smart for getting rid of BT. Then again there would b no point mining. Looking in hindsight ya sure would be better if they saved thier BT. but hey they could have asked for a refund long time ago and bought back some BT with it.  so who are you to ay they got screwed. They took the risk and made the decision to stay on. Just like all preoders  that are still in the queue, we take the risk.  No one is saying anythign on these boards that we dont already know.

[minternj]

Lets say BT drops to $1 . Wouldn't people have said they were smart for getting rid of BT. Then again there would b no point mining. Looking in hindsight ya sure would be better if they saved thier BT. but hey they could have asked for a refund long time ago and bought back some BT with it.  so who are you to ay they got screwed. They took the risk and made the decision to stay on. Just like all preoders  that are still in the queue, we take the risk.  No one is saying anythign on these boards that we dont already know.

Im not a bfl supporter. Im a bfl pre-orderer. Dont get it mixed up. Again is the US vs them mentality, that makes me laugh. Like dems vs repubs, all stupid labels. Comes down to this, theres 2 players in this game. You either get in the game with avalon or bfl or you  dont play. We are mostly all big boys here and can decide our own risk tolerences.

[k9quaint]

Lets say BT drops to $1 . Wouldn't people have said they were smart for getting rid of BT. Then again there would b no point mining. Looking in hindsight ya sure would be better if they saved thier BT. but hey they could have asked for a refund long time ago and bought back some BT with it.  so who are you to ay they got screwed. They took the risk and made the decision to stay on. Just like all preoders  that are still in the queue, we take the risk.  No one is saying anythign on these boards that we dont already know.

Im not a bfl supporter. Im a bfl pre-orderer. Dont get it mixed up. Again is the US vs them mentality, that makes me laugh. Like dems vs repubs, all stupid labels. Comes down to this, theres 2 players in this game. You either get in the game with avalon or bfl or you  dont play. We are mostly all big boys here and can decide our own risk tolerences.

By defending BFL on these forums, you lend legitimacy to a shady operation that has fleeced people of their money and given nothing in return. BFL has already gotten 8 months worth of the benefit of the doubt. Maybe if you had more than 12 posts, 5 of which are defending BFL, the people who got scammed out of their money might be a little less hostile toward you.

[marra]

minternj is Joshin' us like a pro

[minternj]

Funny. Im not defending shit. Here's the facts. I have gpu rigs. I want an asic. BFL "sells" one. I did my own research and think i can take the risk. You telling people what they already knows does nothing.

[marra]

Funny. Im not defending shit. Here's the facts. I have gpu rigs. I want an asic. BFL "sells" one. I did my own research and think i can take the risk. You telling people what they already knows does nothing.

hmmmm... Joshin public and trying to engage latent noobs to step in, while communicating in manner which identifies the common GPU miner today... oh you're good...

On the other side, here at forum, I see about 5-10 computer engineers with reasonable doubt, and pretty much with the similar conclusions...

[minternj]

What is the similar conclusion? sorry msutve missed that. How can they conclude anything if they havent built a bitcoin asic?

Wait didn't yifu of avalon concede they are close? Dunno, hes the only guy that would know sine he has a product.

And i could give less of a shit what other people do. In fact i rather people not buy it! its competition for my current and future mining returns.

[BKM]

Do the math - BFL in all likelihood has massive non operational currency gains. The actual ratios of BTC vs fiat purchases and whether they converted anything from Fiat into BTC is speculation.... they would have to have seriously fucked up to not have experienced major gains.

Disclosure: I have orders pending with BFL

I cannot believe that I actually have to quote myself here....

Furthermore, it is abundantly clear that this forum, and perhaps the community as a whole has a very narrow technical and personal indignation focus.

Are there ANY business people in this forum? DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL AND ACCOUNTING IMPLICATIONS of what I have pointed out here?

If what I have said is true, it simply needs to be confirmed by BFL to completely eradicate the massive pile of tolling energy directed at them. Hey, don't get me wrong here - BFL has every appearance of being an operational and PR nightmare. BUT from a balance sheet perspective they could be sitting very pretty on a BTC arbitrage basis. Yes, the community has forfeited their BTC vs USD gain by 'investing' in a BFL preorder - but what is the correlation to a 'real world' rate of return on invested capital. Anyone here remember the "tech bubble"? It is impossible to divorce the flow of capital from the metrics of comparative returns and the underlying fundamentals associated with them. If you think crypto currencies are immune from the effects you are sorely mistaken and your lunch is being served to others, now.

Like it or not you have few choices. If you are a seasoned stock picker you might realize a 20% cash on cash return - if you rely on investment counsel you *should* be happy with 6 - 8%. If you buy and operate a business the ROIC is 35 - 43% on a risk adjusted basis. Am I speaking English here? If this sounds like a foreign language YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH. GO BACK TO WOW or whatever gaming chat room or newsfeed you heard about crypto currency in.

WAKE UP BTC community. Big money and interests are taking a very hard look at BTC and crypto currency in general right now. It won't take many billionaires to dominate this market in a hurry. Stop pissing in the pool we all have to swim in.

Did they ever take BTC directly?

Are you implying that they now speculating  with the preorder money to raise more funds?

Any business that has capital sitting may invest it in whatever they want unless there is a specific covenant not to do so in their terms of service, an invoice or some other agreement with the client. In many cases this is described as a trust account or a segregated account that guarantees the return of your deposited funds but with no interest. Companies that take such deposits may then invest those funds in anything they deem fit. IF their risk tolerance is high then they can realize significant non-operating gains (income that has nothing to do with their business of making widgets or whatever). They are totally within their right to do so. In the case of BFL, they have accepted orders in BTC - many early buyers paid in BTC. But their prices have always been stated in a USD equivalent. Also, accounting standards demand that the liabilities associated with any unfulfilled orders be denominated in USD.

Short answer: Yes, they have 'speculated' on the BTC / USD gain as a function of accounting practices alone. If they were really smart, they would have actively speculated and now be sitting on a major pile of free and clear equity on their balance sheet. If they did then they are doing very well and should have no problems completing their work. If they are a scam then they have made far more from the speculation than the preorders.

[PuertoLibre]

Will they send me 1 unit @ 50Gh/s and 2X 5Gh/s since I paid for 60Gh/s?

Maybe I'm too optimistic on that one 

So....(Inaba) this wasn't an April fools?

Someone find me a picture of "So much Fail".

[Minor Miner]

What is the similar conclusion? sorry msutve missed that. How can they conclude anything if they havent built a bitcoin asic?

Wait didn't yifu of avalon concede they are close? Dunno, hes the only guy that would know sine he has a product.

And i could give less of a shit what other people do. In fact i rather people not buy it! its competition for my current and future mining returns.

small point, but yifu said he had encountered these problems 1.2 months from shipping.   That does not mean that BFL is 1.2 months from shipping, it means two people who actually know what they are doing, could overcome all the obstacles that are to come in about five weeks.   What that says about BFL is for you to figure out.   

[minternj]

That point was made as a response to the vaporware accusations. I conclude shipping date from my own thoughts. if you go by bfl hsitory then ya im probably wrong with 100% certainty. but do i think they have a product to ship in the near future, yep. do i endorse that you buy it, nope.

[Minor Miner]

That point was made as a response to the vaporware accusations. I conclude shipping date from my own thoughts. if you go by bfl hsitory then ya im probably wrong with 100% certainty. but do i think they have a product to ship in the near future, yep. do i endorse that you buy it, nope.

my bet is june, which would mean they are lying, which, to me, makes this a fraudulent scam.

[Yogafan00000]

I cannot believe that I actually have to quote myself here....

Furthermore, it is abundantly clear that this forum, and perhaps the community as a whole has a very narrow technical and personal indignation focus.

Are there ANY business people in this forum? DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL AND ACCOUNTING IMPLICATIONS of what I have pointed out here?

I think you might have something here. This is probably one of the smartest posts I've read this week.

If I was a bigwig billionaire type, and I believed Bitcoin had a realistic long term shot at major world change (ala MP3, Internet, social media, streaming movies, etc) I would be quickly sitting down with the only professional-style game in town (read BFL) and having a nice long chat about winding down all the business to all the whiny, bitching, retail customers (read you and me) and ramping up big time commercial scale PRIVATE bitcoin mining.

Do you think 20 or 30 million dollars would be enough to pay for a lunch date with Josh and Sonny??

[SgtSpike]

I cannot believe that I actually have to quote myself here....

Furthermore, it is abundantly clear that this forum, and perhaps the community as a whole has a very narrow technical and personal indignation focus.

Are there ANY business people in this forum? DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL AND ACCOUNTING IMPLICATIONS of what I have pointed out here?

I think you might have something here. This is probably one of the smartest posts I've read this week.

If I was a bigwig billionaire type, and I believed Bitcoin had a realistic long term shot at major world change (ala MP3, Internet, social media, streaming movies, etc) I would be quickly sitting down with the only professional-style game in town (read BFL) and having a nice long chat about winding down all the business to all the whiny, bitching, retail customers (read you and me) and ramping up big time commercial scale PRIVATE bitcoin mining.

Do you think 20 or 30 million dollars would be enough to pay for a lunch date with Josh and Sonny??

That would be silly, and stupid.  As soon as anyone had so much as a whiff that such things were taking place, confidence in Bitcoin would plummet THROUGH the basement.  There would be zero value in a billionaire type making such a move.  They would only lose money.

[Yogafan00000]

I cannot believe that I actually have to quote myself here....

Furthermore, it is abundantly clear that this forum, and perhaps the community as a whole has a very narrow technical and personal indignation focus.

Are there ANY business people in this forum? DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL AND ACCOUNTING IMPLICATIONS of what I have pointed out here?

I think you might have something here. This is probably one of the smartest posts I've read this week.

If I was a bigwig billionaire type, and I believed Bitcoin had a realistic long term shot at major world change (ala MP3, Internet, social media, streaming movies, etc) I would be quickly sitting down with the only professional-style game in town (read BFL) and having a nice long chat about winding down all the business to all the whiny, bitching, retail customers (read you and me) and ramping up big time commercial scale PRIVATE bitcoin mining.

Do you think 20 or 30 million dollars would be enough to pay for a lunch date with Josh and Sonny??

That would be silly, and stupid.  As soon as anyone had so much as a whiff that such things were taking place, confidence in Bitcoin would plummet THROUGH the basement.  There would be zero value in a billionaire type making such a move.  They would only lose money.

That is an extremely naive viewpoint.  Just imagine for a second, that a mere rumor that a meeting between Josh and Sonny and Warren Buffet took place.  The price of Bitcoin would absolutely explode!  It's not even on mainstream radar yet, and the price is up whatever thousand percent.  No one knows about Bitcoin yet, except my girlfriend.  When they do realize the potential though, hold onto your hat.  Financial guys would go absolutely bananas for it if there was talks about BIG investment.  Everyone here would be left in the dust.  All of your rant, raving, and fuming would be meaningless.  BFL could burn everyone of us, and it wouldn't matter one bit.  They could just refund us all double our pre-order investment.

The BIG money could take our little Bitcoin playtoys on a mere whim.

[Nemesis]

What is the similar conclusion? sorry msutve missed that. How can they conclude anything if they havent built a bitcoin asic?

Wait didn't yifu of avalon concede they are close? Dunno, hes the only guy that would know sine he has a product.

And i could give less of a shit what other people do. In fact i rather people not buy it! its competition for my current and future mining returns.

Yifu isnt an engineer btw.

Hes just trolling you guys. Saying 1.2 month and all. Next thing i expect him to say is...0.6 week from shipping Batch 2

[creativex]

What is the similar conclusion? sorry msutve missed that. How can they conclude anything if they havent built a bitcoin asic?

Wait didn't yifu of avalon concede they are close? Dunno, hes the only guy that would know sine he has a product.

And i could give less of a shit what other people do. In fact i rather people not buy it! its competition for my current and future mining returns.

Yifu isnt an engineer btw.

Hes just trolling you guys. Saying 1.2 month and all. Next thing i expect him to say is...0.6 week from shipping Batch 2

The Avalon guys were bang on when they pointed out where they felt BTCFPGA and BFL were with their vaporware production efforts in the past. While Ngzhang is the tech guru over there Yifu is no dummy and he's probably getting his info from the man. I'd not quickly dismiss what either of the Avalon guys have to say.

[minternj]

What is the similar conclusion? sorry msutve missed that. How can they conclude anything if they havent built a bitcoin asic?

Wait didn't yifu of avalon concede they are close? Dunno, hes the only guy that would know sine he has a product.

And i could give less of a shit what other people do. In fact i rather people not buy it! its competition for my current and future mining returns.

Yifu isnt an engineer btw.

Hes just trolling you guys. Saying 1.2 month and all. Next thing i expect him to say is...0.6 week from shipping Batch 2

so to summarize:
"engineers" on the forum who have not had anything to do with a bitcoin mining asic  = credible
yifu (not an engineer according to you) = not credible  

either way i cant talk rationally to people like this because if you still doubt they have product after this point with luke-jrs unit hashing as we speak on his pool, theres no other proof they can supply you other than a shipped product. i'll agree that its still risky if they will ship at all, but again thats my risk to take.