BFL RIP OFF... price up 90%, 50GH/s for 2499$.

[coinnewb]

If Asicminer start selling their products at least there will be a viable alternative to Avalon

Is there a thread for this?

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[creativex]

If Asicminer start selling their products at least there will be a viable alternative to Avalon

Is there a thread for this?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.2960;topicseen

[CoinHoarder]

I think BFL's price is justified if they can start shipping. I would take this rise in prices as a good sign to BFL pre-order customers... they wouldn't raise the prices unless they were planning on shipping soon IMO. I got off the BFL sinking ship a long time ago, but at the end of the day I want to see them succeed (as long as it's 1 month after batch 3 Avalon's ship. )

If Avalon delivers batch 3 in a month like they said they will, then I think Avalon Batch 3 customers will have 1-2 month ROI easy. They mentioned they were buying a new SMT line, so that should increase production capacity too. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=162677.msg1711122#msg1711122)

All BFL has at the end of the day are prototypes though. It sounds like they have complicated issues left to work out. I saw Josh insisted it wouldn't take them 1.2 months longer like BitSyncom suggested it might. I guess we will see.. I personally trust BitSyncom more than Josh.

[Cluster2k]

This is actually quite smart on BFL's behalf.  When they ship units that produce less hashes and consume more power they can point to the web site and say "look, you're getting a steep discount on the price of a new unit!"  I ordered seven months ago and would be delighted to get anything at this stage.

There's also the little matter of bitcoin's price booming in the last four months so why not raise prices to take advantage of the little money printing machines?

[coinnewb]

If Asicminer start selling their products at least there will be a viable alternative to Avalon

Is there a thread for this?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.2960;topicseen

Thanks.  I just found it as well: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg1740976#msg1740976

[KGambler]

It's not often that vaporware goes out of stock.

These changes point to one of two scenarios IMO.

Scenario 1

BFL now knows what they can and can't do, they are almost ready to ship and the new specs and prices are the obvious result of the current market for ASICs/bitcoins.  This would be wonderful news for BFL customers.

Of course, if you are paying attention to the problems they are having with their current prototypes then this scenario does not seem at all likely.  It's not likely that they yet know how to fix these problems, or even if they can fix them at all.


Scenario 2

BFL is burning through their capital at an alarming rate, their window of opportunity is closing and the supplier/investors/customers are getting restless.  They did this because they are desperate.  They need to stem the flow of refund requests.  They need to bring in more capital ASAP.  They are not a scam in the sense that they are an actual business trying to create actual products, but they are a scam in the sense that they know they now need a miracle but they will continue to mislead current and potential customers because that is their only chance.

Companies in this type of situation do not cut back on advertising and they certainly do not publicly admit that they are in dire straights.  They always claim that everything is normal.  They are praying they can turn cash flow positive before they run out of cash.  Or maybe they already have and the time suppliers/investors say "ENOUGH" and bring down the hammer is approaching.

This seems like a far more likely scenario to me.  BFL has a lot of expenses and a lot of liabilities.  They don't have much time to get their products to market before it is too late, and they probably don't have enough capital left to make good on the promises they have made to existing customers (honoring hashrate specs, etc.)  Besides their many expenses in trying to finish a working product, it's likely that cash is flying out the door in the form of refund requests.  That 1K in BTC they owe to charity is the least of their problems.

For example, the rig they list as "Out of Stock" is clearly just vaporware that they have finally concluded it is impossible for them to produce.  They will have to go to those customers and offer them a choice of a refund or an "equivalent" product(s).  If a bunch of people request $20K refunds, it could be curtains for them.

IMO, the 2nd scenario is far more likley.  I don't see how anyone who has read BFL's recent progress reports can believe that they now have it all figured out.  I realize that this has all been said before and that none of this is new, but I figured I would lay it out anyway because some people still seem to be confused and are assuming this is automatically good news.  

[maqifrnswa]

IMO, the 2nd scenario is far more likley.  I don't see how anyone who has read BFL's recent progress reports can believe that they now have it all figured out.  I realize that this has all been said before and that none of this is new, but I figured I would lay it out anyway because some people still seem to be confused and are assuming this is automatically good news.  

I was thinking the same thing - but then what about this: They did it silently. If I was really in dire straights for money, I'd announce "Last week to buy it at the low price before we raise it to the new price" to get people's money. Raising it silently doesn't do anything besides reduce the number of orders you get, which is the opposite of what a cash strapped company would want.

The silent move makes me feel like they are fine with money and are just trying to find the spot on the demand curve where they can maximize profit. Thoughts?

[Entropy-uc]

Why weren't you saying this about Avalon? They want 75 BTC ($9700+ USD) for their 64GH/s machine and 88 BTC ($11,440) for their 86+GH/s machines.

Avalon have actually shipped products into enduser hands, therein lies the difference.

I'm going to hold my tongue till units ship but honestly you guys make no sense. If/When BFL delivers; will you guys own up to the fact that those who paid 75 BTC for a 60gh/s unit were fleeced?

Uhh.... are you going to  admit BFL buyers who paid 200 BTC for a single that still doesn't exist were fleeced?

@Dalkore and EntropyUC:

Hind sight is 20/20 and to a certain extent I agree with you regarding paying in BTC for ANY device; the lesson learned should be that buyers need to balance their risk when using BTC to purchase mining equipment. Not many people could have predicted that BTC would have risen to more than 10 (20 in some cases) the amount they originally paid. Was I fleeced? This remains to be seen as you have correctly stated that I do not yet have any hashing units. If I don't get my units in the next 2 - 3 months; then you are absolutely correct in stating that I fleeced and will likely be kicking myself in the ass for not just sitting on my coins.

Hindsight?  I posted that the whole schedule was bullshit the day of the announcement last June.

[abbeytim]

this is stupid we will be making less so why should we pay more

[Bendex]

The problem with BFL is the dishonesty. If they know they have to rethink and rebuild all their boards, order and test new heat syncs, fabricate all new cases... chances are they aren't going to be shipping within 2 weeks. Just be honest with people. What's the point of disappointing people every 2 weeks?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

My guess is that they're desperate to prevent paid orders from being cancelled to stave off bankruptcy. Telling people that "all orders are final" is cute drama, but illegal in the US for a pre-order product.

I believe that is what they mean Yifu.

However according to creativx, what they are now doing is an illegal manouvre? Im unsure on the legality of this statement as I live outside the states.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

BFL is a US company. They cannot enact that policy and comply with FTC/SEC regs. I believe they're just posturing to stave off insolvency.

Sorry, I agree with much of what you say but you have gone too far.   BFL "cannot" do that because it against the law?
Seriously?   Sonny stole money from retirees selling them fake lottery tickets.
Josh/Inaba CONSTANTLY was illegally soliciting investors and using his own name (that is an SEC securities solicitation violation).   Josh has been hosting a co-loc of bit coin miners for non USA residents that do not pay USA income tax and would each have to form a business to be legal (that is money laundering).   Josh tells people that they can "leave their rigs in MO/KS" and save the tax of their country but DOES not charge them state sales/use tax (that is fraud).   He does this all over public forms and does not care about the law.  Why would he care about the rule you linked?
  Nasser works for a broker dealer that has rule against ANY employees engaging in an outside business without submitting a form for compliance to approve (which they NEVER approve especially if it has ANYTHING to do with f/x, commodities, debt or securities.
And you think so "law" is going to stop these guys?  They have broken so many laws constantly for the last 12 months.   They do not care about any laws because they KNOW the suckers that live in their parents' basements that they have stolen this money from them WILL DO NOTHING.

Perhaps. Everyone has a breaking point. I'm sure there's a reason why BFL keeps making their "all sales are final" policy public and then honoring refund requests anyway. If I had to guess it's because they like deterring refund requests(because that's how pyramid scams breakdown) without further violating FTC/consumer protection laws.

I agree though, they're crooks.

I've reached mine! If I have anything to do with it, nothing is leaving their facility without a UL or FCC tag attached to each unit, specific to each model including any changes. And that's only the beginning.

[Logik]

What's the point of disappointing people every 2 weeks?

Because if they didn't lie about their progress, people would pull their pre-orders and BFL would go bankrupt..

[creativex]

My guess is that they're desperate to prevent paid orders from being cancelled to stave off bankruptcy. Telling people that "all orders are final" is cute drama, but illegal in the US for a pre-order product.

I believe that is what they mean Yifu.

However according to creativx, what they are now doing is an illegal manouvre? Im unsure on the legality of this statement as I live outside the states.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

BFL is a US company. They cannot enact that policy and comply with FTC/SEC regs. I believe they're just posturing to stave off insolvency.

Sorry, I agree with much of what you say but you have gone too far.   BFL "cannot" do that because it against the law?
Seriously?   Sonny stole money from retirees selling them fake lottery tickets.
Josh/Inaba CONSTANTLY was illegally soliciting investors and using his own name (that is an SEC securities solicitation violation).   Josh has been hosting a co-loc of bit coin miners for non USA residents that do not pay USA income tax and would each have to form a business to be legal (that is money laundering).   Josh tells people that they can "leave their rigs in MO/KS" and save the tax of their country but DOES not charge them state sales/use tax (that is fraud).   He does this all over public forms and does not care about the law.  Why would he care about the rule you linked?
  Nasser works for a broker dealer that has rule against ANY employees engaging in an outside business without submitting a form for compliance to approve (which they NEVER approve especially if it has ANYTHING to do with f/x, commodities, debt or securities.
And you think so "law" is going to stop these guys?  They have broken so many laws constantly for the last 12 months.   They do not care about any laws because they KNOW the suckers that live in their parents' basements that they have stolen this money from them WILL DO NOTHING.

Perhaps. Everyone has a breaking point. I'm sure there's a reason why BFL keeps making their "all sales are final" policy public and then honoring refund requests anyway. If I had to guess it's because they like deterring refund requests(because that's how pyramid scams breakdown) without further violating FTC/consumer protection laws.

I agree though, they're crooks.

I've reached mine! If I have anything to do with it, nothing is leaving their facility without a UL or FCC tag attached to each unit, specific to each model including any changes. And that's only the beginning.

Hey good luck with that PG. BFL's Chief Bridge Troll ever get back to you on the FCC submission discrepancies? Definitely don't hold your breath. 

[CoinHoarder]

What's the point of disappointing people every 2 weeks?

This was my biggest beef with being a BFL customer.

"We're shipping October November December January February March April?"

They knew damn well there would be no finished products in October, but they insisted they were shipping each month after that as well. The were pulling in more pre-order monies as time went on, because people thought they were shipping next month every month.

They are running thin on pre-order monies because of the problems in the R&D (which was funded at the very least in part from pre-order monies) + they've been paying who knows what kind of salaries to themselves to live off of. They're wearing thin on money, so they raise prices of order numbers 99999999999999999999999999999999999 and greater. That's the reason for no more refunds. You may receive your ASIC sometime next year.

[repentance]

I've reached mine! If I have anything to do with it, nothing is leaving their facility without a UL or FCC tag attached to each unit, specific to each model including any changes. And that's only the beginning.

Do those regulations ever actually get enforced or are they one of those requirements which everyone ignores without consequence?

[Minor Miner]

I've reached mine! If I have anything to do with it, nothing is leaving their facility without a UL or FCC tag attached to each unit, specific to each model including any changes. And that's only the beginning.

Do those regulations ever actually get enforced or are they one of those requirements which everyone ignores without consequence?

mostly get enforced by the munis at that building inspection level for UL.   or when a fire inspection happens.   Now if a company ships from a location in a state these units that violate UL, usually state AGs will get involve if the fire under their butt is large enough.     It is like everything in america, bureaucrats do their jobs when they fear being exposed for NOT doing their jobs.   Other than that, they desk hibernate.

[DoomDumas]

BFL and Avalon are plain greedy it's s shame there is no other competition to keep them honest

Avalon plain greedy ?  

Avalon are anything except greedy !  come on..

They sold batch 1 and 2 and production cost, maybe under.. Before announcing price hikes for batch 3 im pretty sure they were in the red..  No one in the Avalon team are rich.  
It's fine to price batch 3 like they did, for 2 reason;

1 - This investment will return full BTC within 3 month, that's a truly good investment.  Find any investment the recoup under a year..  

2 - The millions aquired by batch 3 will fund for developement and production of Avalon V2, wich will be so great that it will left BFL and/or any real new comer far behind.

Avalon are commited to BTC and mining decentralization, so I'm pretty impressed with their behavior and their values.  Like they said, we must stop thinking in USD/fiat, and get it to the root : BTC.  

They got it, they will fight and would sell their Mom for protecting BTC future.  Mining decentralization are a priotity for them, this is fact, as they limit the number of unit a single person can order.  I truly beleive in Avalon !  

Great job team Avlaon, keep up the good work, the BTC community owe you so much for keeping those good value as priority !

[papaminer]

WTFFFFFF

they HAVEN'T EVEN SHIPPED ANYTHING YET AND THEY ALREADY UPPPED THE PRICE AND LOWER THE HASH?

WTF IS THIS!!!!!!!

[Nemesis]

WTFFFFFF

they HAVEN'T EVEN SHIPPED ANYTHING YET AND THEY ALREADY UPPPED THE PRICE AND LOWER THE HASH?

WTF IS THIS!!!!!!!

Its ok son.... you can cry. Shouting will make you look like a pos.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I've reached mine! If I have anything to do with it, nothing is leaving their facility without a UL or FCC tag attached to each unit, specific to each model including any changes. And that's only the beginning.

Do those regulations ever actually get enforced or are they one of those requirements which everyone ignores without consequence?

mostly get enforced by the munis at that building inspection level for UL.   or when a fire inspection happens.   Now if a company ships from a location in a state these units that violate UL, usually state AGs will get involve if the fire under their butt is large enough.     It is like everything in america, bureaucrats do their jobs when they fear being exposed for NOT doing their jobs.   Other than that, they desk hibernate.

That occurred to me also, hence thinking to keep a fire under them.

WTFFFFFF

they HAVEN'T EVEN SHIPPED ANYTHING YET AND THEY ALREADY UPPPED THE PRICE AND LOWER THE HASH?

WTF IS THIS!!!!!!!