Bitcoin Will Kill The Income Tax

[Senor.Bla]

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway.

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[Zicadis]

Depend on country policy for bitcoin. For example, my country still forbid bitcoin but if they still legalize, they will not affect local tax at all since bitcoin have different mechanism based on my constitution.

At least my goverment do for our people's good !

Agree, it depends on the country and also on the treatment of constitution. Eg: In my country bitcoin can be classified as a computer software, currency or even as a commodity under the provisions of various laws but still this assumption is debatable in the courts. I think classification also matters while determination of taxes.

i will have to disagree on this because which ever country we are from our governments get revenue from tax and bitcoin kills it has we deprive it through the decentralized and unregulated system its on.
Am pretty sure china felt the extent bitcoin can control the economy thats why they are trying to have it tamed!

[deisik]

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

[Senor.Bla]

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less.

[deisik]

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less

Where I live it doesn't work like that

In respect to individual tax payers (unlike companies), they will have to prove it to the court that you really received that income and didn't pay the tax on it. The civil law says that the burden of proof lies on the side that brings forth claims, that the claimant should prove their claims. And I guess it is pretty much the same in many other countries and jurisdictions as well. You seem to be confusing two separate things. Namely, that you should yourself declare your taxes (for the reason that the tax agencies can in fact prove if you really paid or didn't pay the amount due) with the obligation of actually proving that circumstance in court if they come to think that you underpaid some tax

[deppil]

That's why the government is prohibiting the  bitcoin  development and deployment of bitcoin in their country. because it could hurt them in terms of revenue

[burner2014]

That's why the government is prohibiting the  bitcoin  development and deployment of bitcoin in their country. because it could hurt them in terms of revenue

Yes for now it hurts in terms of revenue but they can always study how bitcoin can help the economic growth and that is by imposing tax.
There are still tax like business and excise tax and bitcoin for now is immaterial so the government is not yet focusing on it especially here in our country but our government somehow studying on it nowadays.

[Senor.Bla]

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less

Where I live it doesn't work like that

In respect to individual tax payers (unlike companies), they will have to prove it to the court that you really received that income and didn't pay the tax on it. The civil law says that the burden of proof lies on the side that brings forth claims, that the claimant should prove their claims. And I guess it is pretty much the same in many other countries and jurisdictions as well. You seem to be confusing two separate things. Namely, that you should yourself declare your taxes (for the reason that the tax agencies can in fact prove if you really paid or didn't pay the amount due) with the obligation of actually proving that circumstance in court if they come to think that you underpaid some tax

It might work differently in different countries, but at some point there will be the government telling you, that you have bought a house, a car and a they estimate a price of xxx, but you income statement shows only your income as a nurse of yyy. So how can you afford to pay for it? You can of course provide the receipt of both purchases and the wage your employer payed you, so we do not have to assume, but the number better be reasonable. If there is a gap between the amount you earned and the amount you spent, you better have a good explanation. Most of the time it will be undeclared income.
But back to the point. How can Bitcoin help you in any way in such a situation? 

[coynedterm]

That's why the government is prohibiting the  bitcoin  development and deployment of bitcoin in their country. because it could hurt them in terms of revenue

Yes for now it hurts in terms of revenue but they can always study how bitcoin can help the economic growth and that is by imposing tax.
There are still tax like business and excise tax and bitcoin for now is immaterial so the government is not yet focusing on it especially here in our country but our government somehow studying on it nowadays.

Yup! that is why the some of countries banned the bitcoin  .But no doubt that economic growth of the world increasing day by day . So here unlimited numbers of opportunities to get profit and start worldwide buisnness without much tax or transaction charge .
Here no doubt that tax is somewhat is going for the government because daily transactions of bank money for one account to another results into reasons to pay taxes .
So here in very small amount we are still paying tax .

[Superways]

In my country and I hope in a number of others too most of the tax is collected from the companies and the income tax also depend on the business of the person like if a person have a company then the tax is collected from him according to the budget and profit of the company so I think the income tax will remain in place.

[ForumBit]

i think some how it will do so but as bitcoin proceed and as people became use to of it it will change its term and conditions and it will conclude a proper way of taxation for the specific country of the user.....

[deisik]

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less

Where I live it doesn't work like that

In respect to individual tax payers (unlike companies), they will have to prove it to the court that you really received that income and didn't pay the tax on it. The civil law says that the burden of proof lies on the side that brings forth claims, that the claimant should prove their claims. And I guess it is pretty much the same in many other countries and jurisdictions as well. You seem to be confusing two separate things. Namely, that you should yourself declare your taxes (for the reason that the tax agencies can in fact prove if you really paid or didn't pay the amount due) with the obligation of actually proving that circumstance in court if they come to think that you underpaid some tax

It might work differently in different countries, but at some point there will be the government telling you, that you have bought a house, a car and a they estimate a price of xxx, but you income statement shows only your income as a nurse of yyy. So how can you afford to pay for it? You can of course provide the receipt of both purchases and the wage your employer payed you, so we do not have to assume, but the number better be reasonable. If there is a gap between the amount you earned and the amount you spent, you better have a good explanation. Most of the time it will be undeclared income

This is another question entirely

And it has nothing to do with what you claimed initially, i.e. that "they don't have to prove anything", that "they can just make up a number", and that "[you should] prove that you have earned less", which is obviously not the case in practice. They can't take and levy an income tax on you as they see appropriate or based upon how high they assess your real income judged by your belongings and possessions. They can't even make you pay the tax themselves even if they have all the evidence against you since they will still have to prove their point and assessment in court (they, not you). I've been there and seen that when I didn't pay the "legitimate" property tax, but they abandoned the claim after we had settled the issue between ourselves (I just didn't know how much I should pay). Get it?

But back to the point. How can Bitcoin help you in any way in such a situation? 

What does Bitcoin as such have to do with all that?

[jaberwock]

will be harder than you think, specially if you are a big holder

one day your spendings will cross the things that the revenue can find, like cars, houses and bank transfer, and you'll have to explain how did you get the money to pay for them.

but for the smaller holders may be useful, because you can increase your monthly earnings by a few thousands, don't pay taxes and still don't draw enough attention from the tax people to be caught

[Senor.Bla]

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

It is assumed that the government can still prove that you underpaid them if you really didn't pay in full. That's the reason why the job is on you to calculate how much you should pay (the government basically frees itself from it apart from controlling its results). But this is obviously not any more so with Bitcoin since the government can no longer prove or just find out how much you should have paid (at least as long as you stay in Bitcoin entirely and don't cash out)...

This effectively means that the paradigm of self-imposed tax system is trashed

Like i said, they do not have to prove anything. They will just estimate how much you made and they tend to estimate on the upper end. Then you have the choice to pay what they want or prove that you have earned less

Where I live it doesn't work like that

In respect to individual tax payers (unlike companies), they will have to prove it to the court that you really received that income and didn't pay the tax on it. The civil law says that the burden of proof lies on the side that brings forth claims, that the claimant should prove their claims. And I guess it is pretty much the same in many other countries and jurisdictions as well. You seem to be confusing two separate things. Namely, that you should yourself declare your taxes (for the reason that the tax agencies can in fact prove if you really paid or didn't pay the amount due) with the obligation of actually proving that circumstance in court if they come to think that you underpaid some tax

It might work differently in different countries, but at some point there will be the government telling you, that you have bought a house, a car and a they estimate a price of xxx, but you income statement shows only your income as a nurse of yyy. So how can you afford to pay for it? You can of course provide the receipt of both purchases and the wage your employer payed you, so we do not have to assume, but the number better be reasonable. If there is a gap between the amount you earned and the amount you spent, you better have a good explanation. Most of the time it will be undeclared income

This is another question entirely

And it has nothing to do with what you claimed initially, i.e. that "they don't have to prove anything", that "they can just make up a number", and that "[you should] prove that you have earned less", which is obviously not the case in practice. They can't take and levy an income tax on you as they see appropriate or based upon how high they assess your real income judged by your belongings and possessions. They can't even make you pay the tax themselves even if they have all the evidence against you since they will still have to prove their point and assessment in court (they, not you). I've been there and seen that when I didn't pay the "legitimate" property tax, but they abandoned the claim after we had settled the issue between ourselves (I just didn't know how much I should pay). Get it?

But back to the point. How can Bitcoin help you in any way in such a situation? 

What does Bitcoin as such have to do with all that?

I do not know where you life, but it seems to be a great place, because i would not pay any taxes there and just let them prove everything. If everybody would do the same, then they would have to much to do to collect all the taxes and most would not pay a cent. Thank god they never had the idea to do it otherwise.
Because it would be so much easier to collect taxes for them if you had to pay them and in order to pay less if you had to go to court and prove you point, which makes sens since you should have all the required papers.
But since you have been there and could make a deal, i guess we taxpayers are all wrong. I do not care if you pay your taxes or not, but i certainly hope that nobody takes your advice.

What does Bitcoin as such have to do with all that? Nothing. That was my point. It is not relevant if we talk about fiat or Bitcoin or whatever form of payment. My "I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway." was a reply to a comment which you conveniently cut out.

[chixka000]

If bitcoin is accepted world wide to buy all the things like US dollar, then only income tax can be avoided.But, it is not the case.Every time, for buying anything, we have to convert bitcoins into fiat and so we have to pay tax for the fiat converted.To my knowledge, we could recharge our mobile and hardly buy products found in some offers online produced by individual persons. It would take a long time for us to avoid income tax on our bitcoin earnings.

Lol, if bitcoin can be accepted in the whole world then i guess a simple peron who has bitcoin can live through his life without using fiat. Eg(shopping,coffee,hotel etc) since btc is widely accepted he can pay all those through btc now the question would be is he evading tax pays?

It depends on the person using the Bitcoin, because it is the man's temptation to avoid and tamper his income's transparency. That is what the government is avoiding because if our world is a Bitcoin friendly worlds than I am sure that all countries will have a lesser national budget. Having a lesser national budget will equal to less development.

In some point you are right but since i guess we are not talking a reality here yet and just expectations so that is acceptable. However could bitcoin really lessen the certain country to develop? or it can burst a certain countries development who knows?

[deisik]

I do not know where you life, but it seems to be a great place, because i would not pay any taxes there and just let them prove everything. If everybody would do the same, then they would have to much to do to collect all the taxes and most would not pay a cent. Thank god they never had the idea to do it otherwise. Because it would be so much easier to collect taxes for them if you had to pay them and in order to pay less if you had to go to court and prove you point, which makes sens since you should have all the required papers

You still don't get it

If we talk about, for example, a property tax, they will have to provide an evidence showing that you actually own the property that is taxable. And if you really own it, say, an apartment, they just send an inquiry to the Real Estate Registration Chamber and get an official reply and report which will serve as an irresistible proof in the court. There is basically nothing that you can do to avoid this tax. In fact, that part was not meant as an advice but, nevertheless, you'd better not take to court such cases since it will be a losing case for you, and you will be forced to pay the tax anyway as well as penalties and duties. And it is a completely different story when they have to prove that you lead too wealthy a life which seemingly doesn't match your level of income. Say, they see you driving a luxurious sports car (or the guy next door reports on you) while officially you are unemployed and living under the bridge, but how would they find out what you paid for it?



Maybe, you bought it for just 1 dollar from your playmate?

What does Bitcoin as such have to do with all that? Nothing. That was my point. It is not relevant if we talk about fiat or Bitcoin or whatever form of payment. My "I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway." was a reply to a comment which you conveniently cut out.

I cropped that part to avoid overquoting, no ill intent implied on your part

I think bitcoin will not kill income tax because transactions is happening online , And the government will surely make a move in order to prevent the killing of income tax. Maybe it is depending on the country.

Sure, there's various tax that can be charged to you while doing some sort of transaction such as buying goods online but if all people around the world are using bitcoin then there's a chance for government to have their tax decreased due to intransparency of people addressing their income and the sources of it, people might lying to government while government have no evidence.

It is not the job of the government to prove how much income you have made and therefore how much taxes you have to pay. They can just make up a number and then it is your job to prove that you have had a lower income or else pay the taxes they want. I do not see how Bitcoin can play here a role in anyway

As you can see, your point hinges on the assumption that the government (or rather the tax agency) will impose an arbitrary amount of income tax on you, which is pretty much your wild guesses. Obviously, Bitcoin has nothing to do with them. But that is not what I contested

[Mr.ExtraOrdinary]

I think it won't happen as long as bitcoin user keep use legal services and government ask every legal services which accept bitcoin to include tax as well which automatically converted to their fiat currency.
The real problem when bitcoin user spend their bitcoin which don't take taxes at all such as non-registered online shop and black market.

[LeGaulois]

for record, sell crypto and not declare the profits to the IRS is a criminal or any the less criminal act and so reprehensible. Just to say that bitcoin, as precious metals, is a good way to not be harrassed by the State.
taxs evasion  is a national sport. do not get caught it is imperative. lol

[Theb]

for record, sell crypto and not declare the profits to the IRS is a criminal or any the less criminal act and so reprehensible. Just to say that bitcoin, as precious metals, is a good way to not be harrassed by the State.
taxs evasion  is a national sport. do not get caught it is imperative. lol

It is not a national sport. Tax Evasion is an illegal thing that people do to avoid paying their taxes. For starters taxes are created to mitigate the evil arising from being rich which means they are actually avoiding what is right to keep them in balance. There is a bigger picture than you as an individual avoid taxes. Think about half of your population avoids taxes what will happen to your national budget?

[Casabrandy]

for record, sell crypto and not declare the profits to the IRS is a criminal or any the less criminal act and so reprehensible. Just to say that bitcoin, as precious metals, is a good way to not be harrassed by the State.
taxs evasion  is a national sport. do not get caught it is imperative. lol

It is not a national sport. Tax Evasion is an illegal thing that people do to avoid paying their taxes. For starters taxes are created to mitigate the evil arising from being rich which means they are actually avoiding what is right to keep them in balance. There is a bigger picture than you as an individual avoid taxes. Think about half of your population avoids taxes what will happen to your national budget?

Right, the government budget were based on the tax gathered by their people. In bitcoin there were really transactions that are not influence by tax. That is why maybe bitcoin banned in some countries. But there were some transaction especially when cashing out or transferring money in banks or making it into fiats that have tax. In terms of income tax it is hard to implement or declare tax based on bitcoin tax due to its unstable value.