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Author Topic: Casinobit - LIVE ROULETTE - [INVEST] - BEST CASINO OF 2013  (Read 82440 times)
dooglus
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October 07, 2013, 06:34:27 AM
 #1081

What people don't seem to understand is that these things happen, if Dooglus wouldn't have 110k sitting on the table at the time of the error he would probably find himself in the same situation.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but I've never had more than 58k at Just-Dice.com.  Just-Dice's system has never been run in a ponzi style.  The invested coins are almost all in a well-known cold wallet address, where the investors can see them.  Investors are free to withdraw whenever they like (subject to me being awake and online of course, if they need to withdraw more than is in the hot wallet).

I've been trying to stay out of this whole mess recently, and would appreciate it if you'd leave me out of it if at all possible.  Please don't try to draw parallels between Just-Dice and casinobit.  There are none.

Just-Dice                 ██             
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   1% House Edge
dooglus
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October 07, 2013, 06:46:33 AM
 #1082

Dooglus allowed bets to be placed that never should have been placed; the simple solution was to "undo" those bets.

I was not talking about that incident, I was referring to the time when he forgot to remove the BTC from the balance of a player leading to him withdrawing twice, ultimately costing Dooglus 120,000$ which is nearly 4 times more than our debt and some might call his mistake even more foolish than ours. The only difference is that I didn't have a spare ~400BTC to put into the business

You're both talking about the same incident, only FloridaBear understands what really happened.

There was no "withdrawing twice" or "$120k cost".  I accidentally allowed a player to have a 1300 BTC freeroll, and then cancelled the bets he placed.  It didn't cost anyone anything.  Yes it was a mistake, and yes it was foolish.  Other than that you have almost every detail wrong.

Just-Dice                 ██             
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   Play or Invest                 ██             
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   1% House Edge
CasinoBit (OP)
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October 07, 2013, 08:17:33 AM
 #1083

What people don't seem to understand is that these things happen, if Dooglus wouldn't have 110k sitting on the table at the time of the error he would probably find himself in the same situation.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but I've never had more than 58k at Just-Dice.com.  Just-Dice's system has never been run in a ponzi style.  The invested coins are almost all in a well-known cold wallet address, where the investors can see them.  Investors are free to withdraw whenever they like (subject to me being awake and online of course, if they need to withdraw more than is in the hot wallet).

I've been trying to stay out of this whole mess recently, and would appreciate it if you'd leave me out of it if at all possible.  Please don't try to draw parallels between Just-Dice and casinobit.  There are none.

When you criticize someone elses casino then surely it gives us permission to criticize yours back. But I can honor the request.
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October 07, 2013, 08:21:04 AM
Last edit: October 08, 2013, 06:20:39 PM by CasinoBit
 #1084

ANY WORD Huh

Adjusted list of debt:
Quote
80   1NAzs4DoBwfjQdxuosvSuJ88sxSzhNpZYk   96.*.*.*   0.0099999999999998
99   1HxhLAxqJ8gT8ZKpgm3aPynsVFmy9ciije   213.*.*.*   4.2694
113   1wyG2it97qxc5G6EBu8mZraXHeAVdfQ7f   172.*.*.*   2.2924
118   123LVfbtMd9WF4svnuEoj1KY7S4cyyvzkr   82.*.*.*   13.8002754
120   1JnP6mM7sLAsPsxp4TeTcpvqbC2QGXFKJW   125.*.*.*   0.4839
134   1DnuKtuLSXVQpvkKguJ5pd9tDXEXBLUXfJ   184.*.*.*   2.0138
135   1EWiAVkoTXyb8sdf9e2j8m9DeGsLUfgruB   71.*.*.*   0.1
142   1Nw3PNuczFz3hYYxNXQrjATvQ3PemMaRNt   216.*.*.*   5.5707
150   1P1KH8UZqb3foEJbk9JyGrnPpmQCy95AVy   85.*.*.*   3.1609
157   1FhzzHBWxQtuEL2cRWDNN3X9v2H5qJmdhh   109.*.*.*   2.6221
158   1NJqwk7HFeiV93nub5JDetqdt4Q3WRA6fc   192.*.*.*   0.1
173   14FHLkgPDDvpqo6eVSMfsHxZssA4Cq9baC   178.*.*.*   6.2326
174   15LbyDqhDuv1B18u2jP8tkDPvxWakfwcXC   88.*.*.*   0.5075
183   1E9tuhxqCZEgnJ2nBtkD6da3XdJDgToaYt   217.*.*.*   40.8236
186   16BqbwPfzw1SfAsd5yFioS7tjpx494RquC   112.*.*.*   42.3059
198   13egaokWSP5hD1KisRisuZCRGnA28scsGW   122.*.*.*   1.1412
205   1DxMuMPJBqhkxVj23RCunBwbxuqM9q38j9   134.*.*.*   5.9523
207   13WsM8yupaWVdb2Zmjtw8E5RNADnjgTU6s   50.*.*.*   38.7367
209   14EuCT7wYFxdYjDqdFMLpi86nXenoqFrta   68.*.*.*   16.94
220   16M1gFX2Ny35iNYYVtDdxiuZDtDvhk2cN5   96.*.*.*   0.5
222   1AZTgbu9p6o645HCsKM8WkAUAGdMvKj38u   58.*.*.*   0.2378
225   113JkSU96BC2uuU4NDp7GemptFShYKrvgk   60.*.*.*   9.9731
226   1GEMyDDMGcw5gquzzZ4CkGpEoc8PpPKsNL   120.*.*.*   0.999
236   1NwGftK8zgk292Y1BBwEVq7SkBdN12Lb5Y   122.*.*.*   0.0005
239   16jcjqKS8nYvKB8eTNYi43EJqr1K3EKG8B   186.*.*.*   0.0033387
242   1DKjAXNSX1ewuJse4Jwp4rgJ7kJExRH3Q9   82.*.*.*   2.7462
257   1HBCmTr9MrxjVT8RF8ibYfgVf6Mg8dCL4k   89.*.*.*   0.5056
259   1ExC1tvT9j6bok6kuvgF8bojLMbvWQrC6F   66.*.*.*   0.006
277   1BYKFu7YftotUgpfUbTNzXsHSbsivC85jm   71.*.*.*   0.9624
282   1HzG4GYBUz5XxgfFvSVoNcpQaZdsioysPc   84.*.*.*   10.7652
285   1JN6qJn2aaKmdfwvt1Yf72NxjjHkxFx8j   212.*.*.*   3.66102
291   1BcXcgU4qLTEPePHxgvBHkFcbxoE5R5o1o   99.*.*.*   0.789
292   1C9UPuszGzHt2kCZ2WDeUTeKNrrKYaFfX1   200.*.*.*   0.1
293   1Bxz9hb166fJnaydJos6zyaurGFJ1g993v   207.*.*.*   1.0235
305   1NgBfgWjzg8isq1yNvzKDA5aihtdWYqPaq   173.*.*.*   0.5995
311   1Fts9SctD4dCwgkAnAP4fJN3RG8nTYVtp9   76.*.*.*   1
318   1E5gs5BJHJoPYmnFaAK5sPPF4MAKEieG98   218.*.*.*   1.105
322   1LD9gqQefKa7GLvSdWdYjW2HfWWvfTJNas   81.*.*.*   0.01
338   1Gffikf3mMF81To4w2fXYcf913UvW1FodF   213.*.*.*   0.1
342   17Q9NfyxS4DEo7W7hPkyHLcyRdPVFddA8h   24.*.*.*   0.1007
351   1Fx7wWjaaRot5FYVXLsEpJUXLW5bgbLanj   78.*.*.*   0.4
355   1FWwfQrFaex1NSjJJbFrr8vgmcYVk8yN79   146.*.*.*   0.09722721
370   14BYKCosDxfWgyRcUzFmHkLapJ8NQWC853   71.*.*.*   0.0334
184.04

Bettors are not on it, (you) bettors are at still at the top priority and still will be paid out.
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October 07, 2013, 11:52:31 AM
 #1085

Alright, at least I am on the list (1HzG4GYBUz5XxgfFvSVoNcpQaZdsioysPc). It is, however, interesting that my balance is negative:



Could you provide a satisfactory explanation on that? Besides, did anyone else notice that their balance was negative?
01BTC10
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October 07, 2013, 12:02:34 PM
 #1086

He wiped his debt with me (~108BTC) even though he repeatedly said that I would get paid in full. It's a good thing that I wasn't expecting anything.
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October 07, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
 #1087

I gave negative trust to madmadmax as he appears to be 100% Casinobit.  He accidentally posted and then deleted comments in this thread on page 56 & 57 as madmadmax instead of Casinobit, i qouted them before he apparently changed them.  Also madmadmax was looking for investors in a gambling security without giving any information, after Casinobit went "bankrupt"

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=288588.0

eroxors - currently has admited to owning 5% of the company and with the deal gave his personal info and madmadmax's personal info.  Therefore eroxors who is trying to sell his 5% of the company knows who to contact Casinobit, in real life.


I really do hope that the Securities thread is not his 'a deal is being worked out' attempt to pay back everyone on this thread even though I already know the answer unfortunately. That thread made me laugh.
CasinoBit (OP)
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October 07, 2013, 02:00:40 PM
 #1088

He wiped his debt with me (~108BTC) even though he repeatedly said that I would get paid in full. It's a good thing that I wasn't expecting anything.

You already withdrew your original investment + a hefty profit though?
01BTC10
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October 07, 2013, 02:10:29 PM
 #1089

He wiped his debt with me (~108BTC) even though he repeatedly said that I would get paid in full. It's a good thing that I wasn't expecting anything.

You already withdrew your original investment + a hefty profit though?

I didn't say that it wasn't the case only that you don't hold your promise.
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October 07, 2013, 04:25:42 PM
 #1090

So, no time frame yet?
g83
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October 07, 2013, 04:32:50 PM
 #1091

nice to be on the list but still no payment - why don't you pay the 100 btc you have got left out to satisfy more than the half of your investors and get your trust back Huh

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October 07, 2013, 09:55:13 PM
 #1092


Bettors are not on it, (you) bettors are at still at the top priority and still will be paid out.

is it possible for you to also put a list of betters as well?


the site doesn't show my balance any more  Huh   is this happening to the other betters as well?!!
CasinoBit (OP)
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October 08, 2013, 12:41:55 PM
 #1093


Bettors are not on it, (you) bettors are at still at the top priority and still will be paid out.

is it possible for you to also put a list of betters as well?


the site doesn't show my balance any more  Huh   is this happening to the other betters as well?!!

Code:
Game Number - Bet Number - In trans - Out trans - Bet amount - Bet type - Won amount - Bet from - Date
"23857","1","fba118c27561f9e4ef7584e9f3e9316d782d2be7f59c10549c299dc974cda74a",,"0.010000000","7","0.360000000","12EsRrw7BHeMzWh1ae7ztaDr79qziszjSf","2013-08-19 03:20:16"
"23895","0","f38908b5e9aab322db462b819d5335aa97c97539e24cf40c7960c4285585bd2f",,"0.020000000","23","0.720000000","12X7QX6d9P1yPe5fwtTSqfHsDGaWTrj3Vm","2013-08-19 04:11:33"
"24012","0","2f43d3c3f4b423c6bade93bba4dc82296cf5a534f73fb93d4c46e4bd83a18d3e",,"0.020000000","28","0.720000000","1AwLtD4qSRLZ3y3wH5HdgtQ4KU4m72eJSA","2013-08-19 09:44:53"
"24014","2","a48845a14e091e85ff33879601b0b302e886969a911b85c6b054aaf9f340e548",,"0.010000000","35","0.360000000","1BRChNeorXYEC3DZ143avfkZ1k5HVuzKdj","2013-08-19 09:46:55"
"24025","0","cc216d1ade600c82771f54d63ecc0a6064110483c138242ee987cf5d7c8ed9ac",,"0.022000000","30","0.792000000","13dpgc3Q4jB7zGx22nYXtQNBqXWPtdzk9U","2013-08-19 10:05:55"
"24233","0","fae56f6d5bb470ed1bc7a7820dc03a55ca8483921a7e717264e744cc5d9d5446",,"0.044000000","RB(2,4,6,8,10,11,13,15,17,20,22,24,26,28,29,31,33,35)","0.088000000","14Lc93yx1Bqif6J6L37i7hiNhHPp4WvS5y","2013-08-20 02:26:38"
"24328","1","4492126d2bf12b2ee66ac318ad01790fe551ae9f08ab91ecf30d974f9637ce22",,"0.070000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.140000000","1MY9cBHkdQUzBNXxDfZW23CBozeZLxHjtR","2013-08-20 12:34:36"
"24535","1","6a08a3c0686d68c8690b289397680d7fbb84ef777762cd2a7493383e5294293d",,"0.020000000","D(13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24)","0.060000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-21 04:33:52"
"24537","0","d6ff341cde9e1d9f54f636b1914b7c9f23909167ef61b71ad6759931486909f3",,"0.100000000","RB(2,4,6,8,10,11,13,15,17,20,22,24,26,28,29,31,33,35)","0.200000000","1QA39DYmvvc1VXQAtxWb2uQybAUpERooDP","2013-08-21 06:32:31"
"24573","0","e5b82efe09234a7f87067cae51ceb25ff57f578f761f9f403428e8c8640682d1",,"0.030000000","N(19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36)","0.060000000","1GRFaFw5AnoC5NC5TmF93HRACqzdGuPruc","2013-08-21 17:19:37"
"24673","1","a690237a559082421f785b993fecb3b6337a0ac0b3bc154756912ad6eda0a212",,"0.040000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.080000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-22 03:30:06"
"24678","2","8b3ea6196c41bb598cac74ee1e773b51c4582989fc2aecd430ac8197cdfd39a1",,"0.080000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.160000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-22 03:34:50"
"24681","0","e399c80cb2ef804be52a49f44a79f3097c9f4b8db217dd07f4a6d788e3c011ef",,"0.160000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.320000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-22 03:37:02"
"24916","0","4268bb39b3caa1913e6074e76057b9d97a76132a38e8b425b99c4bc9d82a7f5d",,"0.200000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.400000000","1H2sL3tgUnu6wyYRK6sRXvjEHC8L5E7hUt","2013-08-26 00:09:20"
"24982","33","cefbdeaf711b70e87d1eb6cd3971948bba4c0a80b5a17f618c290bbd3a578c1a",,"0.050000000","D(25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36)","0.150000000","1Ma3aFtW5qJBEqMndzA2xKxjGG166wBvuQ","2013-08-30 15:02:46"
"25025","2","bc599d8c279f1aa0f9c173dbc057526103ca894e9213b910b6f6e43a5c693017",,"0.020000000","CO(2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23,26,29,32,35)","0.060000000","1Mt8zudkfYafXbHLod7gaapdsirfKXbbyf","2013-09-03 05:37:54"
"25027","2","40b4e0cf35a7ab5d72826dbeab76ca0355185f39aeb5e9e41f4672e123edd4e1",,"0.020000000","D(13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24)","0.060000000","1Mt8zudkfYafXbHLod7gaapdsirfKXbbyf","2013-09-03 05:40:13"
"25134","0","456ad75da4134fb3fd998fc44acd3728537682459e14b6d0cdf6a271e6d77935",,"0.300000000","CO(3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36)","0.900000000","1Mt8zudkfYafXbHLod7gaapdsirfKXbbyf","2013-09-07 15:39:55"
"25182","0","e9b0312800d440cab0bb80d88b3ec438fcf16fa18876dd08506cc71e962cf359",,"0.049900000","OE(2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36)","0.099800000","1FS5dAzTygV7zS1fSQGsqF9SXJgRFg1gnS","2013-09-10 15:23:38"

Don't worry about the balances being negative guys, we have records of everything.
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October 08, 2013, 09:40:44 PM
 #1094

If any players liked the live dealer aspect of this site then SatoshiLive.com offers live BJ Baccarat and Roulette.

No I don't own the site, just checked it out as someone advertised it in Just-Dice's shoutbox.
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October 08, 2013, 10:23:49 PM
 #1095

hey im on the list, and here i had given up hope >.<

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October 08, 2013, 10:30:23 PM
 #1096

Lots of reading...   Can I get the short version of what happened?  lol
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October 09, 2013, 12:29:37 AM
 #1097

I'm definitely not on that bettors list there.
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October 09, 2013, 05:51:14 AM
Last edit: October 09, 2013, 06:08:54 AM by hobbymd
 #1098


Bettors are not on it, (you) bettors are at still at the top priority and still will be paid out.

is it possible for you to also put a list of betters as well?


the site doesn't show my balance any more  Huh   is this happening to the other betters as well?!!

Code:
Game Number - Bet Number - In trans - Out trans - Bet amount - Bet type - Won amount - Bet from - Date
"23857","1","fba118c27561f9e4ef7584e9f3e9316d782d2be7f59c10549c299dc974cda74a",,"0.010000000","7","0.360000000","12EsRrw7BHeMzWh1ae7ztaDr79qziszjSf","2013-08-19 03:20:16"
"23895","0","f38908b5e9aab322db462b819d5335aa97c97539e24cf40c7960c4285585bd2f",,"0.020000000","23","0.720000000","12X7QX6d9P1yPe5fwtTSqfHsDGaWTrj3Vm","2013-08-19 04:11:33"
"24012","0","2f43d3c3f4b423c6bade93bba4dc82296cf5a534f73fb93d4c46e4bd83a18d3e",,"0.020000000","28","0.720000000","1AwLtD4qSRLZ3y3wH5HdgtQ4KU4m72eJSA","2013-08-19 09:44:53"
"24014","2","a48845a14e091e85ff33879601b0b302e886969a911b85c6b054aaf9f340e548",,"0.010000000","35","0.360000000","1BRChNeorXYEC3DZ143avfkZ1k5HVuzKdj","2013-08-19 09:46:55"
"24025","0","cc216d1ade600c82771f54d63ecc0a6064110483c138242ee987cf5d7c8ed9ac",,"0.022000000","30","0.792000000","13dpgc3Q4jB7zGx22nYXtQNBqXWPtdzk9U","2013-08-19 10:05:55"
"24233","0","fae56f6d5bb470ed1bc7a7820dc03a55ca8483921a7e717264e744cc5d9d5446",,"0.044000000","RB(2,4,6,8,10,11,13,15,17,20,22,24,26,28,29,31,33,35)","0.088000000","14Lc93yx1Bqif6J6L37i7hiNhHPp4WvS5y","2013-08-20 02:26:38"
"24328","1","4492126d2bf12b2ee66ac318ad01790fe551ae9f08ab91ecf30d974f9637ce22",,"0.070000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.140000000","1MY9cBHkdQUzBNXxDfZW23CBozeZLxHjtR","2013-08-20 12:34:36"
"24535","1","6a08a3c0686d68c8690b289397680d7fbb84ef777762cd2a7493383e5294293d",,"0.020000000","D(13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24)","0.060000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-21 04:33:52"
"24537","0","d6ff341cde9e1d9f54f636b1914b7c9f23909167ef61b71ad6759931486909f3",,"0.100000000","RB(2,4,6,8,10,11,13,15,17,20,22,24,26,28,29,31,33,35)","0.200000000","1QA39DYmvvc1VXQAtxWb2uQybAUpERooDP","2013-08-21 06:32:31"
"24573","0","e5b82efe09234a7f87067cae51ceb25ff57f578f761f9f403428e8c8640682d1",,"0.030000000","N(19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36)","0.060000000","1GRFaFw5AnoC5NC5TmF93HRACqzdGuPruc","2013-08-21 17:19:37"
"24673","1","a690237a559082421f785b993fecb3b6337a0ac0b3bc154756912ad6eda0a212",,"0.040000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.080000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-22 03:30:06"
"24678","2","8b3ea6196c41bb598cac74ee1e773b51c4582989fc2aecd430ac8197cdfd39a1",,"0.080000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.160000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-22 03:34:50"
"24681","0","e399c80cb2ef804be52a49f44a79f3097c9f4b8db217dd07f4a6d788e3c011ef",,"0.160000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.320000000","18VpZu3Fi6yhCJwifHzxgjdkk3ur8YHYrJ","2013-08-22 03:37:02"
"24916","0","4268bb39b3caa1913e6074e76057b9d97a76132a38e8b425b99c4bc9d82a7f5d",,"0.200000000","RB(1,3,5,7,9,12,14,16,18,19,21,23,25,27,30,32,34,36)","0.400000000","1H2sL3tgUnu6wyYRK6sRXvjEHC8L5E7hUt","2013-08-26 00:09:20"
"24982","33","cefbdeaf711b70e87d1eb6cd3971948bba4c0a80b5a17f618c290bbd3a578c1a",,"0.050000000","D(25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36)","0.150000000","1Ma3aFtW5qJBEqMndzA2xKxjGG166wBvuQ","2013-08-30 15:02:46"
"25025","2","bc599d8c279f1aa0f9c173dbc057526103ca894e9213b910b6f6e43a5c693017",,"0.020000000","CO(2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23,26,29,32,35)","0.060000000","1Mt8zudkfYafXbHLod7gaapdsirfKXbbyf","2013-09-03 05:37:54"
"25027","2","40b4e0cf35a7ab5d72826dbeab76ca0355185f39aeb5e9e41f4672e123edd4e1",,"0.020000000","D(13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24)","0.060000000","1Mt8zudkfYafXbHLod7gaapdsirfKXbbyf","2013-09-03 05:40:13"
"25134","0","456ad75da4134fb3fd998fc44acd3728537682459e14b6d0cdf6a271e6d77935",,"0.300000000","CO(3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36)","0.900000000","1Mt8zudkfYafXbHLod7gaapdsirfKXbbyf","2013-09-07 15:39:55"
"25182","0","e9b0312800d440cab0bb80d88b3ec438fcf16fa18876dd08506cc71e962cf359",,"0.049900000","OE(2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36)","0.099800000","1FS5dAzTygV7zS1fSQGsqF9SXJgRFg1gnS","2013-09-10 15:23:38"

Don't worry about the balances being negative guys, we have records of everything.

thanks for posting.

are those balances correct on that list?  or just impartial bets?   because none of those balances are over 1 btc  Huh  





Edit: so  i can see my balance on the site again!! but instead now I have 7 coins less than last I checked  Roll Eyes

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October 09, 2013, 10:04:44 AM
 #1099

when i looked at the site today my balance was much lower than before - i had over 35 BTC now it shows up about 13...

first i thought maybe he already made a payout of the rest but he did not ! i really don't know whats going on atm
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October 09, 2013, 05:20:01 PM
 #1100

Yeah, I have a big list of my bets and they are not there!
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