Cloudhashing ASIC mining contracts, UK LTD company - Now Mining & Paying Bitcoin

[msc]

While Cloudhashing didn't add hashrate to the bitcoin network others did so now cloudhashing competes more wit the rest of the network.

Yes, but that just means the time between blocks should increase.  As long as I own the same percentage of the pool, the size of each payment should essentially be the same.

[mobodick]

While Cloudhashing didn't add hashrate to the bitcoin network others did so now cloudhashing competes more wit the rest of the network.

Yes, but that just means the time between blocks should increase.  As long as I own the same percentage of the pool, the size of each payment should essentially be the same.

What? No!
You do not seem to understand that whatever hashrate you may be using is ALWAYS competing with the TOTAL hashrate on the whole network.
You against all other hashrates, including others on cloudhashing.

Blocks are found at an overall constant rate.
Since the ammount you got from your contract at cloudhashing stays the same while the rest of the world is increasing at a high speed, the portion you get will become smaller. To earn the same you would need more hashrate to compensate for the fact that others have more hashrate too.

You should read more about the mining reward system in bitcoin.

[cesmak]

While Cloudhashing didn't add hashrate to the bitcoin network others did so now cloudhashing competes more wit the rest of the network.

Yes, but that just means the time between blocks should increase.  As long as I own the same percentage of the pool, the size of each payment should essentially be the same.

What? No!
You do not seem to understand that whatever hashrate you may be using is ALWAYS competing with the TOTAL hashrate on the whole network.
You against all other hashrates, including others on cloudhashing.

Blocks are found at an overall constant rate.
Since the ammount you got from your contract at cloudhashing stays the same while the rest of the world is increasing at a high speed, the portion you get will become smaller. To earn the same you would need more hashrate to compensate for the fact that others have more hashrate too.

You should read more about the mining reward system in bitcoin.

+1

[msc]

What? No!
You do not seem to understand that whatever hashrate you may be using is ALWAYS competing with the TOTAL hashrate on the whole network.
You against all other hashrates, including others on cloudhashing.

Blocks are found at an overall constant rate.
Since the ammount you got from your contract at cloudhashing stays the same while the rest of the world is increasing at a high speed, the portion you get will become smaller. To earn the same you would need more hashrate to compensate for the fact that others have more hashrate too.

You should read more about the mining reward system in bitcoin.

In terms of amount per month, you're right.  I'm talking about amount per block.  Cloudhashing's pool discovers a whole block at once, and splits the value of that block among their customers.  If the block reward stays the same, the pool hash rate stays the same, and the customer base stays the same, the amount of each payment stays the same.  A 25 BTC block reward divided by 1000 contracts is always the same amount, aside from TX fees, which aren't very much.

Of course, the customer base won't stay the same, because people are always buying contracts.  But since we know they haven't added any hardware, activating new contracts that can't be supported by the existing hardware is what would make the payments drop.  Adding new hardware would also make the payments drop, but that would mean more frequent payments, depending on difficulty.

[mobodick]

What? No!
You do not seem to understand that whatever hashrate you may be using is ALWAYS competing with the TOTAL hashrate on the whole network.
You against all other hashrates, including others on cloudhashing.

Blocks are found at an overall constant rate.
Since the ammount you got from your contract at cloudhashing stays the same while the rest of the world is increasing at a high speed, the portion you get will become smaller. To earn the same you would need more hashrate to compensate for the fact that others have more hashrate too.

You should read more about the mining reward system in bitcoin.

In terms of amount per month, you're right.  I'm talking about amount per block.  Cloudhashing's pool discovers a whole block at once, and splits the value of that block among their customers. 

 
But because there is now more hashrate outside of cloudhashing, cloudhashing will find a block less often...
You are still hashing with the same hashrate as before but the total hashrate increased and thus difficulty (for everyone, including you) also increased. It is now more difficult to hash a good hash and therefore, on average, you earn less. As long as the bitcoin hashrate is increasing you will earn less with the same hashrate.

Block finding in general stays constant on the bitcoin network, no matter the total hashrate. Everyone just gets paid for their relative contribution.

How much cloudhashing finds is irrelevant, they pass the chance on to you by giving you a certain hashrate. This hashrate ONLY relates to the total hashrate. So if the total bitcoin hashrate doubles you will get (almost) half of what you got before because you chance of finding something halfs.
If you were the only customer at cloudhash you would still earn the same as you do now and it would become less just as it did now.
Even if cloudhashing would increase their hashrate (so increase their chance of finding a block) you will still continue losing because your hashrate is still the same and you would compete against more hashrate.

To compensate this effect they invented the rrp plan. They just don't deliver on it and that's why you earn less and less.

Putting 100% of your earnings into rrp is very very dumb because you have no idea when they will add your extra hashrate. By the time they put it online the hashrate might be almost worthless and you wont make any bitcoin.
Best thing is to pay out everything as soon as possible.

[msc]

But because there is now more hashrate outside of cloudhashing, cloudhashing will find a block less often...

How much cloudhashing finds is irrelevant, they pass the chance on to you by giving you a certain hashrate.

I know, but it's not irrelevant.  You can calculate the amount of each block payment that the pool owes you, based on the pool size and your relative hash rate, and see if it matches up to the amount they actually pay you or credit you with.  I did that a few weeks ago and found that it was close enough.

Putting 100% of your earnings into rrp is very very dumb because you have no idea when they will add your extra hashrate. By the time they put it online the hashrate might be almost worthless and you wont make any bitcoin.
Best thing is to pay out everything as soon as possible.

I understand the argument, and it is a gamble, but I don't think it'll be worthless. 

[mobodick]

I did that a few weeks ago and found that it was close enough.

If you would calculate it by comparing your contract hashrate to the global hashrate and difficulty you would et a more accurate answer...
So the pool IS irrelevant as the data to accurately predict your earnings is available and outside of the pool..
I'll try to explain it again. The size of a pool has absolutely noting to do with how much you make with your hashrate. Zero. Nada. Nill.
Whatever they tell you, you should get your share out of the total ammount of hashrate, because this is ulimately what drives difficulty and thus is what decides the chance you have of winnig with the hashrate you use.

And again, if total hashrate increases your pool will get less blocks and you will earn less. This is exactly how it should be. You still earn the same ammount per block, but your pool just finds it less often.
If your pool addes a shitload of hashpower you wuld still not earn more because the pool would find more blocks but your hashrate is small compared to your pool and you still get the same ammount less. Just as if that hashrate was added outside of your pool.

To make the story short, in bitcoinland everything adds up (or should).
Bitcoin difficulty directly dictates how much you will earn with a certain ammount of bitcoin.
And difficulty is adjusted because of total hashing power, not just your pool.
Any hashrate on the network is always in direct competition with whatever you have.

Anyway, you'll understand this when the fog clears..

[msc]

The size of a pool has absolutely noting to do with how much you make with your hashrate. Zero. Nada. Nill.

It has nothing to do with total revenue, no.  It has to do with understanding what's happening within Cloudhashing's walls.  For example, the pool hash rate is 215 TH right now.  Is that a new high?  I remember 211.  If it has increased, that means they've added hardware, which is useful information, because RRP does have an effect on total revenue.

[mobodick]

The size of a pool has absolutely noting to do with how much you make with your hashrate. Zero. Nada. Nill.

It has nothing to do with total revenue, no.  It has to do with understanding what's happening within Cloudhashing's walls.  For example, the pool hash rate is 215 TH right now.  Is that a new high?  I remember 211.  If it has increased, that means they've added hardware, which is useful information, because RRP does have an effect on total revenue.

True! The faster they deliver the rrp hardware the less you lose from them not delivering it in the first place.

[tokeweed]

realized recently that ch contract holders are doomed from the start. 

[msc]

Looks like hardware is being installed now.  The pool is up to 223 TH.

[blunthammer]

I am new to Bitcoin, but have 20 years in the data center/colocation industry. I have been hopping around this thread and understand the cries of BS and scam. I won't make any such judgement but I will share what I know about how hosting works and will break down what is available as far as information goes. You make the call.

$3,999 = 12 months of hosting.

That breaks down to $333/month. Assuming the boxes are the Terraminer IV boxes (that are customer supplied) those draw 2000W. That is 2Kw PER BOX and so at 4U per box, each 42U rack will draw 20Kw plus a switch, so let's say 22KW per rack/cabinet.

So a rack full of TeraMiner IV draws 22KW per full rack. There are maybe 20 facilities in the US that can take racks of that power density assuming the facilities were built in the past 4 years. Let's assume the gear is in such a facility.

Rent in a facility - by the rack - is typically $300/kw per month (assuming a facility can take that HOT a cabinet) and will include nominal bandwidth. Rent with power included for a 22Kw rack and $300/kw= $6600 per month.

So the math is:

10 Terra miner boxes in one cabinet are generating $40,000 per year in hosting fees on a cost basis of $79,200 per year. That does not include overhead of employees, insurance, taxes, cabling, install fees, or additional bandwidth if required.

Other risks, as a user, would be:

There is no Service Level Agreement to anyone who uses their service. Cloudhashing received one from their facility. If they did not, then they are betting that they will have no downtime and that the facility will do its best to keep your gear running in the facility that is not responsible for anything.  If you are doing 10 installs on a single cabinet, that mean there are people going into the cabinet 10 times to plug things in, wire them up, and get them working. Any time there has been an issue in a data center people have been present. That's a fact.

There is no proof of insurance required. Other users can put their box in the cabinet and if theirs catches fire, or the box that it was shipped in catches fire next to the cabinet because the facility can't cool it and cooks the cabinet, sets off sprinklers, or other fire supression you'll get sued along with everyone else in the cabinet. British law - per their website - is the rule of law. So you'll be going to England to defend yourself.

If cloudhashing doesn't pay their bill, the facility will turn off the equipment and seize it as payment. Kiss it goodbye. 

There are no performance guarantees. For cooling, for uptime, for anything.

For those of you wanting to run these in your house, I hope you live in a cool climate. Running these TeraMiner boxes will be the equivalent of a heat gun or two hairdryers going 24x7x365.

If the cost of electricity is ten cents per Kwh, then 2Kw*730 (hours in a month)= 1460 Kwh in power added to whatever you consume anyway. At ten cents per Kwh that'll cost an additional $146/month in electricity. I do not know if that consumption happens if it's just turned on or hashing like crazy which would take more power.

You still need to keep it cool. Putting these in your home on anything but concrete outside is nuts. It has fire written all over it. Whether from the heat coming out the back or the inability of an older electrical system to handle that much juice running through wires not properly insulated.

Your call, but hopefully that sheds some light. I won't speculate on the play here, but I will go on the record saying that the math does not add up and there is FAR too much risk for me to use this.

[tripppn]

You know they are loving this recent price drop of BTC for the RRP.  Prob just waiting for it to hit 500 or something.

[amolina]

they have no shame. Your story we know all. Prob just waiting for it to hit 300 or something.
another scam their customers.

RRP is far away from January 31 and more far away from January 19.

[tripppn]

Hey CH.  If your not going to process the RPP can I get my btc out of it so I can do something useful with it.

[cloudhasher]

We will implement RRP once we have enough capacity to do so.  We currently don't have the capacity to implement it across the board, which is how it's implemented.  We have some really amazing gear coming online, and you will see our pool vastly expand accordingly.  This will benefit our customers who mine in our pool.  Sure we wish it were sooner, in accordance with our suppliers' projections, but we are in the position of having to rely on our suppliers and have to adjust our dates in accordance with what they are telling us and what we're receiving.  Unless we became our own ASIC manufacturing company, we'd have no way of avoiding this, unfortunately. 

We are absolutely not waiting until the price of Bitcoin reaches some level before doing anything.  We, like all of you, want BTC to go to the moon.  We would absolutely love to be able to do RRP and BTC be twice what it currently is.  That would benefit everyone, and most importantly our customers.

-Michael

[DPoS]

Cloudhashing by definition is a scam

Anyone that can somehow squeeze out profits mining these days is not going to just cut a slice out of it and give to some lazy guy with $$ in his wishful head since they would just sell the coins instead

payday loans is what this is for sketchy folk willing to pay a premium for coins on a credit card (probably not theirs)

[mobodick]

We will implement RRP once we have enough capacity to do so.  We currently don't have the capacity to implement it across the board, which is how it's implemented.  We have some really amazing gear coming online, and you will see our pool vastly expand accordingly.  This will benefit our customers who mine in our pool.  Sure we wish it were sooner, in accordance with our suppliers' projections, but we are in the position of having to rely on our suppliers and have to adjust our dates in accordance with what they are telling us and what we're receiving.  Unless we became our own ASIC manufacturing company, we'd have no way of avoiding this, unfortunately. 

We are absolutely not waiting until the price of Bitcoin reaches some level before doing anything.  We, like all of you, want BTC to go to the moon.  We would absolutely love to be able to do RRP and BTC be twice what it currently is.  That would benefit everyone, and most importantly our customers.

-Michael

There is no 'benefit' for your customers to expanding your pool. You just owe people hashrate and by delivering this late you slightly compensate for the fact that you pissed away most of peoples profits already...
I'ts like the benefit of getting a moldy bread a week after you payed for it. Pretty useless 'benefit' that is.
Did you allready explain to your customers that they will need to reinvest 70% into rrp just to keep up with difficulty?
Did you also tell them that because you're late with this rrp hardware they already lost 90% of what could have been made with that extra hardware?

You sold your supplieres 'projection' as a certainty. You told people you had the hardware covered and you proceeded to take peoples bitcoins and not give them anything back for it. That is a scam.

There was a perfectly good way to avoid all this and that was to not sell hardware you did not have in your possession.
By doing so you were outright lying to your customers and now you are royally screwing them over with your 'oh noes, we can't get the hardware!' bullshit.

I would advise anyone invested in cloudhashing to get out. These people don't care about their customers. They only care about getting their customers money one way or another even if that means screwing them over. There is no way to win against this scheme.

[chinchs]

We will implement RRP once we have enough capacity to do so.  We currently don't have the capacity to implement it across the board, which is how it's implemented.  We have some really amazing gear coming online, and you will see our pool vastly expand accordingly.  This will benefit our customers who mine in our pool.  Sure we wish it were sooner, in accordance with our suppliers' projections, but we are in the position of having to rely on our suppliers and have to adjust our dates in accordance with what they are telling us and what we're receiving.  Unless we became our own ASIC manufacturing company, we'd have no way of avoiding this, unfortunately. 

We are absolutely not waiting until the price of Bitcoin reaches some level before doing anything.  We, like all of you, want BTC to go to the moon.  We would absolutely love to be able to do RRP and BTC be twice what it currently is.  That would benefit everyone, and most importantly our customers.

-Michael

You really earned the bad reputation... you never aknowledge your errors (maybe to avoid compensation to your customers...). Every time I read a post from you, sound like a politician. If we are going to receive the HW in march, we could bought another equipment and pay for it %80 less... unless you have the hardware mining for yourself (i.e. in another pool).

[tripppn]

Looks like they got the hardware.  440THs.  Now lets see if they actually use the mt gox price to determine RRP or change to a legit exchange that isn't drowning.  What would be nice is if they used the price btc was at when they originally promissed rrp.