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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26371521 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
macsga
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December 13, 2014, 06:21:50 AM
Last edit: December 13, 2014, 06:36:13 AM by macsga

Right now there is a group of people (ranging between 2-40 million in number) who are willing to hold ~$5 billion worth of value in bitcoin is as much as you can say with confidence.

As of September 10, there were only ~650'000 addresses in the blockchain with at least 0.1 BTC (~50 USD).  Assming that a bitcoin user must have at least one address with 0.1 BTC in it, that its an upper bound to the number of bitcoiners.

There may be bitcoiners who have their coins scattered into many addresses, all with less than 0.1 BTC.  Or bitcoiners who happened to be out of bitcoins on that date, but had more bitcoins at other times.  On the other hand, there must be many bitcoiners who own several addresses with more than 0.1 BTC.  Threfore, "650'000 bitcoiners" is more likely to be too high than too low.

True. Well, almost true to be honest. Judging from myself and close friends of mine, I like my wallets ''tidy''. That means scattering to ie: 1BTC per wallet when the price is below $1000 is not a sane thing to do if you get my point. So I'd say for a person that owns 50BTC the most possible solution is to divide his holdings to 2x20 + 10 on a 3rd wallet. I personally want to scatter my BTC but I feel that dispersion is not always a good thing when it comes to handling.

So, a rather pragmatic way to see this, would have been that ONLY when you have big holders their BTCs needs to be sliced to smaller wallets. If a bitcoin owner has only 10BTCs, most probably one wallet fits his needs. Nevertheless, there still are a rather big number of wallets that contain more than 100BTCs; that means even this way of calculating the wallet/users ratio may be wrong.

TL;DR: Speculation can't form calculative rules. Of course this is a speculation thread, but I feel you got this wrong (probably me too).
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December 13, 2014, 06:48:21 AM

... Mostly, Monkey just expects me to shut up and stay short SPUs until roughly Wednesday ...
You used to call him "monkey". Now it is "Monkey". I'm glad it's earning your respect. I wish him to graduate to "Sir Monkey" eventually. Smiley
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December 13, 2014, 07:00:41 AM


Explanation
JorgeStolfi
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December 13, 2014, 07:42:47 AM

Don't know the the Bitpay wallet statistics, but would be interested. Any link for it?

It was at the top of my post:

http://www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/BitPay.com

There are several others, but I don't see Coinbase: www.walletexplorer.com/wallet/

I can't find an explanation of how that site works, but I guess that it looks for transactions with 2 or more inputs, and assumes that those input addresses belong to the same owner (because one needs all their private keys on hand to sign the transaction).  Then one takes the transitive closure of those pairs (if addresses A and B are inputs to one transaction, and B and C are inputs to another one, then A and C must belong to the same owner too.) That logic breaks the addresses into clusters, which the site calls "wallets". 

Quote
Anyway, in my opinion there are two general problems with your counter-arguments to the adoption evidence.

(1) Presented with several metrics that intuitively seem to be half-decent proxies for "adoption", you find fault with any of them on the basis of what I'd call minor problems.

They are not minor problems... The USD volume (minus changebacks) is flat since April, and still less than January; and, among the metrics you showed, that should be the one most directly related to adoption.  That metric being flat, one must conclude that the other blockchain metrics, that show increase in 2014, must be useless to measure adoption.  In fact, the discrepancy between those metrics makes them all suspect, including the USD volume.

And I gave very strong arguments -- China, and the big peaks -- showing that the trade volume at the exchanges is totally unrelated to use in e-commerce.

Quote
If it makes you more inclined to see it my way, I will admit this much: I agree. We cannot be absolutely sure adoption is growing based on those statistics. They could be (partially) fake. They could over-represent non economically significant transactions.  And so on.

However, they are the best approximation we have, and by and large, they point to increasing adoption. So while I agree that there remains some epistemic uncertainty perhaps, there is little aleatoric uncertainty that adoption grows given this data.

(2) You don't really follow the Copernican principle applied to time when you only concentrate on a very narrow range in the very recent past where adoption did not soar like it did before, and conclude from it that there seems to be no further adoption - ignoring that overall the adoption metrics are significantly up compared to where they were a year ago, and vastly up from 2 years ago. [ ... ]
In May 2013 Bitpay had a volume of 5 million USD per month processing transactions on behalf of their merchants. (source)

A year later, May 2014, it's 1 million USD per day. (source)

Time for the same spiel again? "Maybe it's up from May to May, but how can we be sure that from May to now adoption continued?!"

Yes, I will give the same spiel again.  As I wrote before,  adoption surely increased from 2012 to 2013 to 2014. But I do not see any clear signs that adoption has been increasing over the last year.  The most germane indicators that you use as evidence of year-to-year increase show a decrease and stagnation since January.

The BitPay wallet above shows the same thing.  Here are preliminary plots of the inputs and outputs in that wallet:

Bitcoins per day, 2013-01 to 2014-11

Transactions per day, 2013-01 to 2014-11

(The second plot is not quite transaction counts; it is more like count of inputs and outputs of transactions that go into or out of the wallet.  There are some puzzling details on those plots that I still must look into.  Also, the first plot shows ~1000 BTC/day of inputs, on the average, unchanged since 2013-01; which would be 0.5 million USD/day -- only 1/2 of what Bitpay claimed above.  Perhaps the wallet is incomplete, or perhaps they picked one good day in May. Note that the scale is logarithmic, and the traffic does reach 2000 BYC/day sometimes.)

The fact that Bitpay and the other payment processors are not giving monthly statistics is also a hint that those numbers are not good.
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December 13, 2014, 07:46:13 AM

I reckon this is the 2nd greatest bear trap since $2.

I'm buying 10BTC at $350 flat.
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December 13, 2014, 08:00:41 AM


Explanation
BlindMayorBitcorn
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December 13, 2014, 08:01:32 AM

I reckon this is the 2nd greatest bear trap since $2.

I'm buying 10BTC at $350 flat.

God speed, brother Undecided
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December 13, 2014, 08:06:48 AM

As of September 10, there were only ~650'000 addresses in the blockchain with at least 0.1 BTC (~50 USD).  Assming that a bitcoin user must have at least one address with 0.1 BTC in it, that its an upper bound to the number of bitcoiners.

There may be bitcoiners who have their coins scattered into many addresses, all with less than 0.1 BTC.  Or bitcoiners who happened to be out of bitcoins on that date, but had more bitcoins at other times.  On the other hand, there must be many bitcoiners who own several addresses with more than 0.1 BTC.  Threfore, "650'000 bitcoiners" is more likely to be too high than too low.

That is a really interesting statistic. How did you get these numbers, and would it be possible to see how this number decreased or increased over let's say 2013 and 2014?
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December 13, 2014, 08:14:02 AM

If we assume that adoption drive prices, then a metric of adoption would be the price itself. This will tell you that adoption has not grown in the past year.
If instead, we assume that adoption doesn't drive prices then the discussion is irrelevant for future prices.

I believe that demand for use in payments, by itself, would not support 100 $/BTC, maybe not even 10 $/BTC.  What keeps the price up is speculation: people buying BTC to hold for weeks or years, waiting for better prices.   That locks up most of the existing 13 million BTC, and makes them scarce on the exchanges.

Assuming that BitPay processes 1 million $/day, I would guess that the total traffic for e-payments now may be perhaps 5 million $/day.  Let's say that bitcoins bought for that purpose stay out of the market for 5 days on the average, before being sold by the payment processors.  Then, at any time, that use would lock up 25 million $ worth of bitcoins.  If there was no speculation, and all 13 million BTC were on the exchanges, that demand would perhaps support a price of 2 $/BTC.
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December 13, 2014, 08:15:54 AM

As of September 10, there were only ~650'000 addresses in the blockchain with at least 0.1 BTC (~50 USD).  Assming that a bitcoin user must have at least one address with 0.1 BTC in it, that its an upper bound to the number of bitcoiners.

There may be bitcoiners who have their coins scattered into many addresses, all with less than 0.1 BTC.  Or bitcoiners who happened to be out of bitcoins on that date, but had more bitcoins at other times.  On the other hand, there must be many bitcoiners who own several addresses with more than 0.1 BTC.  Threfore, "650'000 bitcoiners" is more likely to be too high than too low.

That is a really interesting statistic. How did you get these numbers, and would it be possible to see how this number decreased or increased over let's say 2013 and 2014?

How many have all BTC on an exchange(s) though?  Not terribly secure, but do you think it is uncommon?  I bet the number is significant.
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December 13, 2014, 08:17:43 AM

I reckon this is the 2nd greatest bear trap since $2.

I'm buying 10BTC at $350 flat.

God speed, brother Undecided

Cheers mate.  I'm long 578 BTC.  I have 22 BTC to go before I am all in.... again.....
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December 13, 2014, 08:29:19 AM

and when you realise how absolutely corrupt and broken the fiat socialists ponzi scheme tax-prison farm really is then you go wtf and go all-in 100% adopt bitcoin.

adoption as diffusion counts relatively on price. What % of population control world's finance? IMO what matters is if btc have some use value (obviously yes: asset protection, privacy, remits, etc.) and if it will keep to constitute the large majority of crypto-market capitalization. Then what is coming in 2015 will enlighten many and btc will spread beyond the original nucleus of paranoid nerds and anarchist gold bugs.

I'm worried more about the fact that the 'enemy' has a money printer and so can play at a loss manipulating the btc market for a long time buying high and selling low.
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December 13, 2014, 08:34:25 AM

I'm worried more about the fact that the 'enemy' has a money printer and so can play at a loss manipulating the btc market for a long time buying high and selling low.

I consider that the irony of Keynes's "The Market Can Stay Irrational Longer Than You Can Stay Solvent "
The government is forcing the irrationality.

The Honey Badger doesn't care.  Back to $50?  If it has to.

We WILL win outside of a protocol failure.
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December 13, 2014, 08:36:50 AM

now that bitcoin stability is finally achieved it is perfect and price will shoot up!!! ;-)
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December 13, 2014, 08:47:25 AM

As of September 10, there were only ~650'000 addresses in the blockchain with at least 0.1 BTC (~50 USD).
That is a really interesting statistic. How did you get these numbers, and would it be possible to see how this number decreased or increased over let's say 2013 and 2014?

Sorry, I should have given the link:

http://bitcoinrichlist.com/charts/bitcoin-distribution-by-address?atblock=320000

Those tables are updated infrequently, apparently every 40'000 blocks.  The most recent is up to block 320000 (2014-09-10).  The next one may be block 360000.

By block 280000 (2014-01-12) there were ~450'000 addresses with 0.1 BTC or more.

Addresses with 10 BTC or more were ~101'000 in january, ~114'000 in September.

Those indicators suggest that the number of people who own BTC (whether or not they use it for payments) has been increasing in 2014.  However, the BTC price fell almost by half in that time span: 0.1 BTC was 90$ in January, 50$ in September.   It would be interesting to compute the number of addresses with 50$ worth or more (rather than 0.1 BTC or more), on both dates.  Also, as times passes we can expect that people who have 1000's of BTC will accumulate more and more "crumbs" in their wallets -- addresses with small amounts over 0.1 BTC.

Said another way, those numbers are only upper bounds on the number of bitcoiners; and if the upper bounds increase, it does not mean that the quantity increases.  ("I am doing well, because my net worth was less than 1 million US$ in 2013, and is less than 2 million US$ now.")
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December 13, 2014, 08:52:41 AM

How many have all BTC on an exchange(s) though?  Not terribly secure, but do you think it is uncommon?  I bet the number is significant.

That should be less common now after the MtGOX fiasco.  Anyway, back in january Huobi's CEO claimed that he had a few tens of thousands active clients.  MtGOX apparently had 70'000, IIRC (much less than the 1-2 million that they claimed).
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December 13, 2014, 09:00:42 AM


Explanation
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December 13, 2014, 09:31:17 AM

This is just ridiculous. Fucking Microsoft adopts Bitcoin and people just keep on dumping. Half 2015 Bitcoin will might be 10x as big and the price 10x times as low because of these retarded dumpers and traders.
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December 13, 2014, 09:34:08 AM

Bitcoin is getting bigger every day. Let's make sure to dump the fuck out of it!
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December 13, 2014, 09:35:43 AM

This is just ridiculous.

Be cool man.  Let the miners and traders do their thing.

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