Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[1714815232]

1714815232

[1714815232]

1714815232

[flagpara]

If you want to have an ethical argument about how trading is immoral and should be abolished, that is another matter is probably your strongest approach.

As for the economic impact, it will be negative. I have read reports. The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off.

You missed what I said about securities based borrowing. You can invest and trade at the same time by using the investment as lending collateral for the trading. You still have a long term investment, which goes untouched (unless you have losses)

I didn't miss. You're talking about maybe 0.01% of amount of trades. Yes it exists but who uses it? And it doesn't matter, it would be better to have ONLY investments).

And it will not be negative as, as I said, your just destroying an intermediate. You don't destroy any value, and the amount of money that was "won" in trading was also "lost" in trading (because for you to win 100$ in trading someone must have lost 100$ in trading.).

 The money will just go somewhere else. Suppressing companies that produce nothing and provide no services can't have a negative effect on economy, it's just not possible... Even if "The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off." the tax will be won somewhere else because the money spent on trading will be spent somewhere else...

[Dotto]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

[Cconvert2G36]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Hint... it's called price discovery, and it's occasionally useful.

Would you rather they used your money to figure it out? That can be arranged.

[ErisDiscordia]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.

[BldSwtTrs]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?

They are as much parasites as the baker who sells you some bread.

Have you heard about the invisible hand? This is not because you don't see them that benefits don't exist.

[flagpara]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

[suda123]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

If you want to have an ethical argument about how trading is immoral and should be abolished, that is another matter is probably your strongest approach.

As for the economic impact, it will be negative. I have read reports. The tax envisioned to generate additional tax revenue will actually result in a net decrease in tax revenue due to other sources being cut off.

You missed what I said about securities based borrowing. You can invest and trade at the same time by using the investment as lending collateral for the trading. You still have a long term investment, which goes untouched (unless you have losses)

what if I just accedently make an account on an exchange and accidentally press the buy and sell button

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3xwium/bitcoin_core_capacity_increases_faq_part_1/cy8oj9q

Masking the truth with self-deprecating humor... cute!

Wise beyond his years...

/s

[flagpara]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?

They are as much parasites as the baker who sells you some bread.

Have you heard about the invisible hand? This is not because you don't see them that benefits don't exist.

No. Not at all. The fact that you're saying that means that's you probably never produced anything in your life.

The baker buy primary resources, add their skill, their time, their energy and their effort to create something new that worth more.
What do traders do? They buy things that don't exist, in order to sell them on a higher price to other people who expect to do the same. It's basically a huge Ponzi scheme. Most of the time nothing is exchanged and nothing is produced.

[flagpara]

what if I just accedently make an account on an exchange and accidentally press the buy and sell button

I don't understand your question I'm afraid 
You'll buy something then sell it immediately, paying the broker fee and the market gap and the tax. Bu I'm not to sure about why you would do this ^^

[Cconvert2G36]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Having traders aka. "the market" discover what something is worth is the alternative to setting prices via central committee.

BJA used to talk about this when he was calling btc traders "decentral bankers". Their job is to buy when they feel like the thing is undervalued and sell when it is overvalued, providing liquidity. The ones who are better at this end up with greater means to influence the price.

So much for theory. In reality we have things like insider trading, government interventions and price manipulation by cartels going on.

Claiming traders don't bring any value to the table seems incredibly myopic. They are helping to set the price of things in a decentralized way which would presumably seem useless only to someone who would prefer to set prices of things through central committees and whatnot.

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

[flagpara]

Thanks for your awesome argument sir!
My world of pure imagination and the subprimes crisis and every single farmer in the world seeing the value of what they produce going up and own without any reason around the year, want to thank you for your open mind. 

[ErisDiscordia]

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

If information is not "real" to you because presumably you can't hold it in your hands or taste it, I fear this discussion won't be very productive.

[flagpara]

Do traders provide some benefit to the system? (no just BTC traders, but traders in general) or they are just plain parasites?. It would be nice to listen at least some protraders opinion if it even exists.

A priori they look as pure parasites, but somehow a prioris use to be wrong.

Interesting debate while price go sideways

Hint... it's called price discovery, and it's occasionally useful.

Would you rather they used your money to figure it out? That can be arranged.

Price discovery is when you actually exchange goods that have an unknown value. Not when, by multiplying the amount exchange by 100 times the actual amount of goods EXISTING, you create fluctuations without any reason that have a huge impact on the life of real people. I'm not saying that trading should disappear, I'm saying that the current trading should. You want price discovery? Buy and sell. But buy and sell real things, in real quantity. Then we'll talk.

[flagpara]

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

If information is not "real" to you because presumably you can't hold it in your hands or taste it, I fear this discussion won't be very productive.

Ok I'll try to explain it to you in a more simple way.
-If 100 tomatoes exist in the world, and people buy and sell them, sometimes you'll see difference of prices, but it's not wrong because they won't be incredible, they will be easily understandable and will be predicted, at least in a certain measure.
-if 100 tomatoes exist in the world, and people buy and sell 10k tomatoes, the fluctuations will automatically be stronger, less comprehensible and less predictable. But not less important upon tomatoes producers.

Damn I don't understand... don't any of you have heard of trading in real life? How come you can tell that they have an "important value addition" compared to people that actually produce things?!?!

Imagine, tomorrow all the traders disappear. What would happen?
Weeeeeeeeeeeell.. Nothing much in fact.
Farmers will sell directly to other companies which will sell it to the baker. Same goes for everyone...

I see no need of traders here.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[ErisDiscordia]

You're all talking about the invisible hand. Which not a bad thing in itself. You mean traders are the way for market to regulate itself, which not wrong.

Now think it the other way around, what does happen when a market is ONLY about self-regularization?
I have nothing against the fact that traders gives the value of things, when they ACTUALLY buy and sell things. But they don't, they just bet on rise or loss.

Not even 1% of exchange are real, they're not "value conquistadores", they're just plain parasites because they don't have to use real things to bet on.

Decentralization is good when you talk about real products. When one will really buy 1ton of corn at a price and sell it back at another price. When you exchange 10000 times the amount of good produced in the world, you don't set the value of anything, you just create "value" from thin air.

If information is not "real" to you because presumably you can't hold it in your hands or taste it, I fear this discussion won't be very productive.

Ok I'll try to explain it to you in a more simple way.
-If 100 tomatoes exist in the world, and people buy and sell them, sometimes you'll see difference of prices, but it's not wrong because they won't be incredible, they will be easily understandable and will be predicted, at least in a certain measure.
-if 100 tomatoes exist in the world, and people buy and sell 10k tomatoes, the fluctuations will automatically be stronger, less comprehensible and less predictable. But not less important upon tomatoes producers.

If you are sure about your bet, go ahead and use leverage. Just go broke if you're wrong, please. The only reason why such an extreme example as you describe would even be possible is the moral hazard of government bail-outs. The illusion of trading 10K tomatoes where only 100 exist would not last very long without this.

If you are worried about the impact of highly leveraged trading on the plight of the common man I suggest you address the root cause of the problem which is not the traders who take advantage of incentives given, but the governmental entities providing said incentives.

And please, if your suggestion involves "fixing the rules via governmental entities" don't even bother replying.

[billyjoeallen]

Good traders provide a service, which is helping the market to more accurately price things. The price system helps us all to better allocate resources. Bad traders provide the service of paying the good traders.

[flagpara]

If you are sure about your bet, go ahead and use leverage. Just go broke if you're wrong, please. The only reason why such an extreme example as you describe would even be possible is the moral hazard of government bail-outs. The illusion of trading 10K tomatoes where only 100 exist would not last very long without this.

If you are worried about the impact of highly leveraged trading on the plight of the common man I suggest you address the root cause of the problem which is not the traders who take advantage of incentives given, but the governmental entities providing said incentives.

And please, if your suggestion involves "fixing the rules via governmental entities" don't even bother replying.

Ok I won't bother replying you. If you're a totally pro "liberal market" we probably have nothing more to say indeed. Just open your eyes and look at the world and what liberalism and capitalism without control has brought us in the last decade.

But I'll answer to those who don't understand why traders are useless.
If something is exchanged 1000 times (and that's currently the case), it creates 1000 opportunities for the price to change.
And traders don' fix the "right price" they don't "help the market to find the value of things". They increase the price and take the profits.

If traders earn 1000$ from a trade, who pays the 1000$ ? You, the consumer.

I don't understand how you can't see this!