Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[El duderino_]

This train can't be stopped. Everybody wants to have at least 1 bitcoin. But the quantity of bitcoins is too limited...

But i Still wanna keep my more than 1 btc

[Torque]

Shit, I have an iPhone but don't tell anyone.

buy a 50 USD Android phone on eBay ...
i prefer full node on refurbished (and formatted) PC from Amazon ...

Yeah, and oh boy it's getting ridiculous. I'm hearing that both Apple and Samsung are launching next-gen phones this year that will cost $1000! That's insane, I can buy two top of the line laptops for that much. Whoever is ready to pay $1K for a phone is gonna get ripped off big time.

[oblox]

Is margin trading considered the same as if you were selling from your previous stash or is it a separate thing?

My guess is that it has to be considered a separate thing. My reasoning is this: suppose someone does the exact same trades as your friend does, but that person does NOT have an extra stash that is kept offline. In his case, it would make no sense to act as if the offline BTC were being sold (and bought back), bc he doesn't have any. So now the question becomes: does it make sense to treat the exact same trades one way for one person, and another way for another person? I would think probably not.

PS I'm no accountant, and this is not tax advice, blah blah blah.
PPS Hopefully I understood your question correctly. Correct me if I did not ...

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. But not so sure about that just for keeping most of the stash offline it would change that for any BTC sell in the exchange it would be the older one suppossed to be sold (even if it is in some cold storage you have had for years). So if you have ie 100 BTC offline and 10 BTC in a exchange, and you sell/rebuy it 10 times (or more) in a year, you have basically sold and rebought your entire stash (short term).

But... Maybe the fact that margin trading is not exactly as if you were really buying/selling BTC but just something like "betting" in one or other direction (long/short) it could be considered a separate thing from your long term stash. And if you declare that you only had that X BTC that you have on exchange so nothing older being sold..... then it will be a BIG problem to try to declare those older BTC in the future as it's basically as if they "surfaced" from nowhere.

My tax advisor almost doesn't know the specifics about cryptocurrencies and I am starting to get really worried about all this.

Thanks for your reply!

You're complicating things. If you have 100BTC and transfer 10BTC to an exchange to trade, you have a cost basis on the 10BTC. When you sell those entire 10BTC to fiat, your gain is the amount of fiat you received less the cost basis of those 10BTC. Once you rebuy, you have a new cost basis on your trading position. It doesn't matter how often you do this, as long as you keep track of the new cost basis and what you sell for gain/loss, you're fine. Keep in mind anything less than 1 year is short-term capital gains.

[BTCtrader71]

Is margin trading considered the same as if you were selling from your previous stash or is it a separate thing?

My guess is that it has to be considered a separate thing. My reasoning is this: suppose someone does the exact same trades as your friend does, but that person does NOT have an extra stash that is kept offline. In his case, it would make no sense to act as if the offline BTC were being sold (and bought back), bc he doesn't have any. So now the question becomes: does it make sense to treat the exact same trades one way for one person, and another way for another person? I would think probably not.

PS I'm no accountant, and this is not tax advice, blah blah blah.
PPS Hopefully I understood your question correctly. Correct me if I did not ...

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. But not so sure about that just for keeping most of the stash offline it would change that for any BTC sell in the exchange it would be the older one suppossed to be sold (even if it is in some cold storage you have had for years). So if you have ie 100 BTC offline and 10 BTC in a exchange, and you sell/rebuy it 10 times (or more) in a year, you have basically sold and rebought your entire stash (short term).

But... Maybe the fact that margin trading is not exactly as if you were really buying/selling BTC but just something like "betting" in one or other direction (long/short) it could be considered a separate thing from your long term stash. And if you declare that you only had that X BTC that you have on exchange so nothing older being sold..... then it will be a BIG problem to try to declare those older BTC in the future as it's basically as if they "surfaced" from nowhere.

My tax advisor almost doesn't know the specifics about cryptocurrencies and I am starting to get really worried about all this.

Thanks for your reply!

I'll amend my previous answer to say it probably depends on the precise details of how the particular exchange in question operates. I agree with what you said about going long/short. e.g. on OKCoin, buying a long or a short is not the same as buying or selling bitcoin itself. But suppose you're on a different exchange, where going short means you borrow some btc and sell it. In that case, if you want to do FIFO, I suppose you could for accounting purposes use the cost basis of x btc sitting in your stash off-exchange.

I'm not sure that there even is a right way to do it, until the IRS issues some guidance. I pity the poor IRS agent who has to audit someone's taxes who did stuff on lots of exchanges. It's gonna be a nightmare. He's gonna have to know in great detail how each exchange works. I think at this point the best anyone can do is to make your best "good faith" attempt to calculate in a way that seems reasonable.

[Elwar]

Margin selling is just a loan, so you are not actually making a capital gain. You are just loaning out your bitcoins.

[infofront]

Personally, I'd just declare any earnings as long term capital gains, pay the 15%, and be done with it.

[oblox]

Personally, I'd just declare any earnings as long term capital gains, pay the 15%, and be done with it.

If you can prove you held longer than a year, sure, but if it has been activity (such as trading), it's short-term capital gains. Further, LT rates depend entirely on tax bracket with those in the highest brackets paying 20%, not 15%.

[infofront]

Personally, I'd just declare any earnings as long term capital gains, pay the 15%, and be done with it.

If you can prove you held longer than a year, sure, but if it has been activity (such as trading), it's short-term capital gains. Further, LT rates depend entirely on tax bracket with those in the highest brackets paying 20%, not 15%.

^Forgot about the 20% tax bracket. Anyway, it would be worth holding an extra year for LT rates. Hell, the value of BTC will probably increase during that time anyway.

[hd060053]

guys i just wanna tell you, XMR is the real electronic cash;

still im holding BTC as long term investment, as it will be the virtual gold.

[Elwar]

Personally, I'd just declare any earnings as long term capital gains, pay the 15%, and be done with it.

If you can prove you held longer than a year, sure, but if it has been activity (such as trading), it's short-term capital gains. Further, LT rates depend entirely on tax bracket with those in the highest brackets paying 20%, not 15%.

^Forgot about the 20% tax bracket. Anyway, it would be worth holding an extra year for LT rates. Hell, the value of BTC will probably increase during that time anyway.

Yep, if the amount you take out plus your income is over $38k you have to pay 20% on long term capital gains.

[Ibian]

Still haven't sold my clone coins and not sure why. I could dump em and use the extra cash for trading liquidity, which would be useful but at this stage not critical. Or swap them for a handful of extra bitcoins. Or just keep em Just In Case. Blah. Who knew getting free stuff would be so troublesome.

[Elwar]

If I'm not worried about how long it will take for a transaction to go through...what is the minimum sat/b to set the fee?

I see some transactions go through with a fee of .00038400. Will that work for any transaction?

[bitserve]

You're complicating things. If you have 100BTC and transfer 10BTC to an exchange to trade, you have a cost basis on the 10BTC. When you sell those entire 10BTC to fiat, your gain is the amount of fiat you received less the cost basis of those 10BTC. Once you rebuy, you have a new cost basis on your trading position. It doesn't matter how often you do this, as long as you keep track of the new cost basis and what you sell for gain/loss, you're fine. Keep in mind anything less than 1 year is short-term capital gains.

Yep, the problem is that in my country LIFO is not allowed so any subsequent selling could be considered it is coming from the older coins (and not from the new purchase) even if I have them on cold storage. Unless I decided to just "lose" them... But that would make very hard to "legally" sell those in the future.

I basically don't want to owe now taxes for capital gains from my older coins in cold storage. Only when I decide to sell them. I have never withdraw any FIAT to my bank account. But the taxable event is the trading on the exchange of which I don't mind to pay short term profits as long as it doesn't ruin my long term holding "age".

I'll amend my previous answer to say it probably depends on the precise details of how the particular exchange in question operates. I agree with what you said about going long/short. e.g. on OKCoin, buying a long or a short is not the same as buying or selling bitcoin itself. But suppose you're on a different exchange, where going short means you borrow some btc and sell it. In that case, if you want to do FIFO, I suppose you could for accounting purposes use the cost basis of x btc sitting in your stash off-exchange.

I'm not sure that there even is a right way to do it, until the IRS issues some guidance. I pity the poor IRS agent who has to audit someone's taxes who did stuff on lots of exchanges. It's gonna be a nightmare. He's gonna have to know in great detail how each exchange works. I think at this point the best anyone can do is to make your best "good faith" attempt to calculate in a way that seems reasonable.

I am mostly concerned about Kraken. When you do margin trading, in theory you do a buy/sell of BTC that goes into the order book, but it is not one of mine. When I close the position I either have a net profit/loss on the position without affecting my BTC.... But it could be interpreted otherwise by tax agency... Decisions, decisions...

Margin selling is just a loan, so you are not actually making a capital gain. You are just loaning out your bitcoins.

That's my hope. I will just be careful and from now on only do margin trading (with 2:1) and cross fingers they will consider it a separate thing from my long term holding.

Personally, I'd just declare any earnings as long term capital gains, pay the 15%, and be done with it.

That was my idea (except LTCG is 23% here... and it was 27% a couple of years ago!) but after talking with tax advisor and reading a lot about it.... I am not sure I was right on my interpretation --- Depending on how the FIFO criteria is applied I could have fuck up.

I am assumming the tax agency could get ahold of my entire trading history from the exchange. If it was just that I could show the bank transfers I used to buy bitcoins I would have no worry about it.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

If I'm not worried about how long it will take for a transaction to go through...what is the minimum sat/b to set the fee?

I see some transactions go through with a fee of .00038400. Will that work for any transaction?

According to my calculations your tx will confirm within the next 25 blocks. What are you buying? A boat? Because of doom?

[bitserve]

I have found this site that suppossedly takes the history of the exchange and helps you calculate your tax:

https://bitcoin.tax/

Anyone here uses it? Is it trustable? Any other alternative sites?

[jbreher]

Personally, I'd just declare any earnings as long term capital gains, pay the 15%, and be done with it.

If you can prove you held longer than a year, sure, but if it has been activity (such as trading), it's short-term capital gains. Further, LT rates depend entirely on tax bracket with those in the highest brackets paying 20%, not 15%.

^Forgot about the 20% tax bracket. Anyway, it would be worth holding an extra year for LT rates. Hell, the value of BTC will probably increase during that time anyway.

Yep, if the amount you take out plus your income is over $38k you have to pay 20% on long term capital gains.

Not if you are a Puerto Rico resident.

[oblox]

Personally, I'd just declare any earnings as long term capital gains, pay the 15%, and be done with it.

If you can prove you held longer than a year, sure, but if it has been activity (such as trading), it's short-term capital gains. Further, LT rates depend entirely on tax bracket with those in the highest brackets paying 20%, not 15%.

^Forgot about the 20% tax bracket. Anyway, it would be worth holding an extra year for LT rates. Hell, the value of BTC will probably increase during that time anyway.

Yep, if the amount you take out plus your income is over $38k you have to pay 20% on long term capital gains.

Assuming you are in the US and a single filer, this is also wrong for the 2017 tax filing year given current law (and even some of the proposed Trump/Republican plans).

[BTCtrader71]

I have found this site that suppossedly takes the history of the exchange and helps you calculate your tax:

https://bitcoin.tax/

Anyone here uses it? Is it trustable? Any other alternative sites?

I've used it. Haven't found anything better yet. The guy who runs it is on bitcointalk (there's a thread from a few years ago where he announced the service, if memory serves)

[bitserve]

I have found this site that suppossedly takes the history of the exchange and helps you calculate your tax:

https://bitcoin.tax/

Anyone here uses it? Is it trustable? Any other alternative sites?

I've used it. Haven't found anything better yet. The guy who runs it is on bitcointalk (there's a thread from a few years ago where he announced the service, if memory serves)

Thanks, found it!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1023971.0

The thread is full of people asking wtf they would need to pay taxes on their Bitcoin activity..... How much things have changed lol

I guess I also thought that way... but this is getting serious now.

P.S.: This is main thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=485260.msg5344518#msg5344518

And the entire posting history of this guy is gold: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=257282;sa=showPosts

[drbrockcoin]

Guys, stupid question alert here...


I want to claim my BCH and i am downloading electron cash. I click it to open it and it says "this file is encrypted, Enter your password or choose another file"

Why does it say this if I haven't downloaded it before?

I'm sure it's something simple but I'm a bit dumb.

My advice is stick Coinomi on an android device and use it.

+1

I did this worked for me no problem