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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26811487 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
ChartBuddy
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January 25, 2016, 03:01:37 AM

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BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 25, 2016, 03:05:14 AM






57MB in the pool. What did we hit during the epic stress-test of a while ago? Is there a record all time high we should be shooting for?
Chillax, you'll get your Romanian bath salts soon enough. Haven't you got anything under your sink to tide you over?
Just got that shipment of Witch Weasel in...We should talk.
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January 25, 2016, 03:09:04 AM

Analyzing the 2013 Bitcoin fork: centralized decision-making saved the day

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

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The incident shows the necessity of an effective consensus process for the human actors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
AlexGR
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January 25, 2016, 03:15:45 AM

Telling miners, businesses, and users: "Not tonight dear.", when they understand the situation and their options is not a good strategy for Core.

What exactly is the situation?

Cointape.com :

Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 30 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 369 bytes, this results in a fee of 11,070 satoshis.


That's 4 cents / 0.04 USD for urgent first block inclusion, despite "full blocks" and 55+ mb of queued transactions. I asked "why" before but I didn't get an answer. Why don't we have "5$ fees" or "100$ fees"? Why is it just 4 cents?

The answer is that the blocks are full with bogus transactions of extremely low fees. The blockchain is being artificially bloated by actors who aren't really intending to pay much or at all, for making payments that they don't really need. Let's send this back and forth 500 times for the lolz, yeah... who cares... as long as it bloats the hell out of this fucker and have the idiots (or moles / propagandists) shout "ohhh fullblockalypse".
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 03:16:09 AM

Analyzing the 2013 Bitcoin fork: centralized decision-making saved the day

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote
The incident shows the necessity of an effective consensus process for the human actors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Collaboration between mining pools solved that one. I watched it in real time. Something tells me we will see miners collaborating towards achieving their mutual self interests again...

Quiet Stolfi
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 03:18:20 AM

Telling miners, businesses, and users: "Not tonight dear.", when they understand the situation and their options is not a good strategy for Core.

What exactly is the situation?

Cointape.com :

Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 30 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 369 bytes, this results in a fee of 11,070 satoshis.


That's 4 cents / 0.04 USD for urgent first block inclusion, despite "full blocks" and 55+ mb of queued transactions. I asked "why" before but I didn't get an answer. Why don't we have 5$ fees? Why is it just 4 cents?

The answer is that the blocks are full with bogus transactions of extremely low fees. The blockchain is being artificially bloated by actors who aren't really intending to pay much or at all, for making payments that they don't really need. Let's send this back and forth 500 times for the lolz, yeah... who cares... as long as it bloats the hell out of this fucker and have the idiots shout "ohhh fullblockalypse".

Do you wait until a tire explodes on your car before you get some fresher rubber on there? "It got me home just fine today."

Miners can generate a fee market by setting their own spam and dust limits... why do you hate the free market?
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 25, 2016, 03:19:02 AM

Analyzing the 2013 Bitcoin fork: centralized decision-making saved the day

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote
The incident shows the necessity of an effective consensus process for the human actors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Collaboration between mining pools solved that one. I watched it in real time. Something tells me we will see miners collaborating towards achieving their mutual self interests again...

Quiet Stolfi

Of course I wasn't here then. But the article suggests it was central planning by developers that saved the day. Isn't it?
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 03:21:59 AM

Analyzing the 2013 Bitcoin fork: centralized decision-making saved the day

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote
The incident shows the necessity of an effective consensus process for the human actors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Collaboration between mining pools solved that one. I watched it in real time. Something tells me we will see miners collaborating towards achieving their mutual self interests again...

Quiet Stolfi

Of course I wasn't here then. But the article suggests it was central planning by developers that saved the day. Isn't it?

Simplified: It was gavin saying roll back to the old version... miners agreed and did it. He gave them some of the faucet coins for their orphaned blocks (probably unnecessary, but generous).
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 25, 2016, 03:26:06 AM

Analyzing the 2013 Bitcoin fork: centralized decision-making saved the day

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote
The incident shows the necessity of an effective consensus process for the human actors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Collaboration between mining pools solved that one. I watched it in real time. Something tells me we will see miners collaborating towards achieving their mutual self interests again...

Quiet Stolfi

Of course I wasn't here then. But the article suggests it was central planning by developers that saved the day. Isn't it?

Simplified: It was gavin saying roll back to the old version... miners agreed and did it. He gave them some of the faucet coins for their orphaned blocks (probably unnecessary, but generous).

Like how the miners just agreed and are doing it again?

In this meeting we have produced a plan: Once blocks are full, and at that time, * if Core has not yet upgraded to 2MB, * and if Classic is not enough widely supported, * we will do what Satoshi has pointed out https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg15366 We will modify the code patch to alter cap from 1MB to 2MB to solve the pressing problem. This means, as we think, has a big potential to reach consensus, and urge Core to accommodate.
AlexGR
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January 25, 2016, 03:36:03 AM

Telling miners, businesses, and users: "Not tonight dear.", when they understand the situation and their options is not a good strategy for Core.

What exactly is the situation?

Cointape.com :

Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 30 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 369 bytes, this results in a fee of 11,070 satoshis.


That's 4 cents / 0.04 USD for urgent first block inclusion, despite "full blocks" and 55+ mb of queued transactions. I asked "why" before but I didn't get an answer. Why don't we have 5$ fees? Why is it just 4 cents?

The answer is that the blocks are full with bogus transactions of extremely low fees. The blockchain is being artificially bloated by actors who aren't really intending to pay much or at all, for making payments that they don't really need. Let's send this back and forth 500 times for the lolz, yeah... who cares... as long as it bloats the hell out of this fucker and have the idiots shout "ohhh fullblockalypse".

Do you wait until a tire explodes on your car before you get some fresher rubber on there? "It got me home just fine today."

The analogy is wrong in the sense that you position the tire explosion in the future.

If we say that the blocks are full, the tx queue is growing etc, etc, then the tire exploded. It's not an "if", right? We hit the limit. What worse can we have?

Yet, the "disaster" we are facing are 3-4cents txs. Why? Because most of the txs in the queue are spam and dust.

Miners should not even process anything under 10 cents fees. Fuck the spammers.
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 03:38:22 AM

Like how the miners just agreed and are doing it again?

Possibly, we won't know until they start mining trigger blocks. It's also possible that this is all posturing and we will just hang out until 2017 and we'll see some segwit tx's trickle in later this year.
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 03:44:28 AM

Telling miners, businesses, and users: "Not tonight dear.", when they understand the situation and their options is not a good strategy for Core.

What exactly is the situation?

Cointape.com :

Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 30 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 369 bytes, this results in a fee of 11,070 satoshis.


That's 4 cents / 0.04 USD for urgent first block inclusion, despite "full blocks" and 55+ mb of queued transactions. I asked "why" before but I didn't get an answer. Why don't we have 5$ fees? Why is it just 4 cents?

The answer is that the blocks are full with bogus transactions of extremely low fees. The blockchain is being artificially bloated by actors who aren't really intending to pay much or at all, for making payments that they don't really need. Let's send this back and forth 500 times for the lolz, yeah... who cares... as long as it bloats the hell out of this fucker and have the idiots shout "ohhh fullblockalypse".

Do you wait until a tire explodes on your car before you get some fresher rubber on there? "It got me home just fine today."

The analogy is wrong in the sense that you position the tire explosion in the future.

If we say that the blocks are full, the tx queue is growing etc, etc, then the tire exploded. It's not an "if", right? We hit the limit. What worse can we have?

Yet, the "disaster" we are facing are 3-4cents txs. Why? Because most of the txs in the queue are spam and dust.

Miners should not even process anything under 10 cents fees. Fuck the spammers.

That's never been my position, and I admit it's a bad analogy. It is a slow bleed away of the utility of the network, allowing competing networks to gain a foothold, while miners get 25 btc per block. An artificial competitive disadvantage. There will be no fireworks, just a slow erosion of dominance, at a crucial time period in the network's fight to gain share.
marcus_of_augustus
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January 25, 2016, 03:46:55 AM

Analyzing the 2013 Bitcoin fork: centralized decision-making saved the day

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote
The incident shows the necessity of an effective consensus process for the human actors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Collaboration between mining pools solved that one. I watched it in real time. Something tells me we will see miners collaborating towards achieving their mutual self interests again...

Quiet Stolfi

Of course I wasn't here then. But the article suggests it was central planning by developers that saved the day. Isn't it?

Simplified: It was gavin saying roll back to the old version... miners agreed and did it. He gave them some of the faucet coins for their orphaned blocks (probably unnecessary, but generous).

Wrong or you intentionally lie again to rewrite history. Gavin fucked up big time then (and has done at other times).

Gavin said "the longest chain wins" which at the time was the new version 0.8 leveldb with Mike Hearn's 'bug' that would have allowed for >1MByte blocks. ( I was in IRC at the time).

Luke-Jr realised how messed up that would become and coordinated quickly with mining pools (slush in particular had to be woken up) to get the pools on the 0.8 code to roll-back onto a 0.7 version or a 0.8 version that had db fixes in it.

Interestingly that incident whereby a highly suspicious block exploited an obscure unknown behaviour in Berkeley DB to sneak in a 'bad' block (it had many transactions that triggered the database lock limit but not the blocksize limit) which Mike Hearn wrote the code for, Gavin committed to the repo would have set a precedent for developers forking off the miners over a blocksize technicality. Sound familiar? ... these guys have been at this for years.
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 03:54:37 AM

Analyzing the 2013 Bitcoin fork: centralized decision-making saved the day

https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/randomwalker/analyzing-the-2013-bitcoin-fork-centralized-decision-making-saved-the-day/?utm_content=buffer4f46c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote
The incident shows the necessity of an effective consensus process for the human actors in the Bitcoin ecosystem.

Collaboration between mining pools solved that one. I watched it in real time. Something tells me we will see miners collaborating towards achieving their mutual self interests again...

Quiet Stolfi

Of course I wasn't here then. But the article suggests it was central planning by developers that saved the day. Isn't it?

Simplified: It was gavin saying roll back to the old version... miners agreed and did it. He gave them some of the faucet coins for their orphaned blocks (probably unnecessary, but generous).

Wrong or you intentionally lie again to rewrite history. Gavin fucked up big time then (and has done at other times).

Gavin said "the longest chain wins" which at the time was the new version 0.8 leveldb with Mike Hearn's 'bug' that would have allowed for >1MByte blocks. ( I was in IRC at the time).

Luke-Jr realised how messed up that would become and coordinated quickly with mining pools (slush in particular had to be woken up) to get the pools on the 0.8 code to roll-back onto a 0.7 version or a 0.8 version that had db fixes in it.

Interestingly that incident whereby a highly suspicious block exploited an obscure unknown behaviour in Berkeley DB to sneak in a 'bad' block (it had many transactions that triggered the database lock limit but not the blocksize limit) which Mike Hearn wrote the code for, Gavin committed to the repo would have set a precedent for developers forking off the miners over a blocksize technicality. Sound familiar? ... these guys have been at this for years.

Fair enough, I wasn't in IRC for that, and I must have gotten the wrong impression from reading forum posts.

But you are saying that it was an intentional sabotage by Gavin and Hearn? Why weren't they thrown out and ostracized after it happened?

Edit: I noticed you danced over everything else I replied to you, feel free to include that response in your response to this.
ChartBuddy
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January 25, 2016, 04:01:33 AM

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AlexGR
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January 25, 2016, 04:01:46 AM

Telling miners, businesses, and users: "Not tonight dear.", when they understand the situation and their options is not a good strategy for Core.

What exactly is the situation?

Cointape.com :

Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 30 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 369 bytes, this results in a fee of 11,070 satoshis.


That's 4 cents / 0.04 USD for urgent first block inclusion, despite "full blocks" and 55+ mb of queued transactions. I asked "why" before but I didn't get an answer. Why don't we have 5$ fees? Why is it just 4 cents?

The answer is that the blocks are full with bogus transactions of extremely low fees. The blockchain is being artificially bloated by actors who aren't really intending to pay much or at all, for making payments that they don't really need. Let's send this back and forth 500 times for the lolz, yeah... who cares... as long as it bloats the hell out of this fucker and have the idiots shout "ohhh fullblockalypse".

Do you wait until a tire explodes on your car before you get some fresher rubber on there? "It got me home just fine today."

The analogy is wrong in the sense that you position the tire explosion in the future.

If we say that the blocks are full, the tx queue is growing etc, etc, then the tire exploded. It's not an "if", right? We hit the limit. What worse can we have?

Yet, the "disaster" we are facing are 3-4cents txs. Why? Because most of the txs in the queue are spam and dust.

Miners should not even process anything under 10 cents fees. Fuck the spammers.

That's never been my position, and I admit it's a bad analogy. It is a slow bleed away of the utility of the network, allowing competing networks to gain a foothold, while miners get 25 btc per block. An artificial competitive disadvantage. There will be no fireworks, just a slow erosion of dominance, at a crucial time period in the network's fight to gain share.

How exactly is the network bleeding utility? It's already accommodating all its transactions plus a ton of spam for free or near free, and the rates for urgent first block inclusion are at 3-4 cents and 2-5 blocks with 1-2 cents. How lower can you go? Free?

There is no network that can sustain free txs and bloat attacks. All competitive altcoins with low fees have these fees due to low usage. If you allow free txs AND you have large or frequent blocks, you are just inviting spammers to kill your coin for zero cost.
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 04:05:55 AM

How exactly is the network bleeding utility? It's already accommodating all its transactions plus a ton of spam for free or near free, and the rates for urgent first block inclusion are at 3-4 cents and 2-5 blocks with 1-2 cents. How lower can you go? Free?

There is no network that can sustain free txs and bloat attacks. All competitive altcoins with low fees have these fees due to low usage. If you allow free txs AND you have large or frequent blocks, you are just inviting spammers to kill your coin for zero cost.

Again, we're back to talking about planning for today vs tomorrow. You realize a solution will take some time I hope. Look at the average tx volume graph and tell me it jumped right to 1MB (because free shit army) and will immediately jump to 2MB if we add that capacity.

We simply differ on who should decide which transactions get included. I think it should be miners, you think it should be Core.
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January 25, 2016, 04:36:31 AM

How exactly is the network bleeding utility? It's already accommodating all its transactions plus a ton of spam for free or near free, and the rates for urgent first block inclusion are at 3-4 cents and 2-5 blocks with 1-2 cents. How lower can you go? Free?

There is no network that can sustain free txs and bloat attacks. All competitive altcoins with low fees have these fees due to low usage. If you allow free txs AND you have large or frequent blocks, you are just inviting spammers to kill your coin for zero cost.

Again, we're back to talking about planning for today vs tomorrow.

Tell me, what will change tomorrow if you are already at the limit?

The only thing that can change is the proportion of dust/spam/bloat txs to actual transactions.

But most bigblockers don't even want to admit the situation right now and why we have the paradox of "tremendous demand", "full blocks" and ...near zero fees. They don't want to admit it's all spam that should have been cut off in the first place.

Quote
You realize a solution will take some time I hope.

Technically speaking, the block size can go up any time the devs like and the miners / exchanges can sync - but users should definitely be warned a few months ahead.

If it was up to me, I would read the spirit of what satoshi meant by "need" in terms of future increases.

I don't get the sense that satoshi meant the "needs" of the spammers to bloat the blockchain. I don't get the sense from any of his late writings (when he had seen the network getting abused) that he wanted near-free txs, max block use for peanuts, leaving every spammer getting away with spamming for nothing etc. I don't get the sense that if he was running the show today that he would see a "need" to give spammers more space.

If satoshi proposed a BIP, I feel it would probably be along the lines of increasing recommended minimum fees to reduce spam and/or simultaneously increase the block size a little - having ensured though that the extra space isn't used for attacking the network and its functionality.

Quote
Look at the average tx volume graph and tell me it jumped right to 1MB (because free shit army) and will immediately jump to 2MB if we add that capacity.

It can jump wherever it wants if a spammer wants to spam you for peanuts and you aren't penalizing him for that, or if some miners are willing to process all the crap there is for peanuts.

Quote
We simply differ on who should decide which transactions get included. I think it should be miners, you think it should be Core.

No, you want the devs to do that for you.

If we see it technically, you are seeking for a fee bypass mechanism which is a free-market intervention.

There are two ways to examine the network right now. One is "as is" and the other "as it should". In as-is configuration, we are seeing queues when there shouldn't be queues because the avg block is at 0.62mb instead of 1mb.

The as-it-should, would be an avg block of 0.99mb.

With the as-is method, there is an extra 50%+ capacity that isn't being used because some miners aren't even interested to raise the 750kb soft limiter or are mining 0-sized blocks. Economically speaking you could say that the fees are not incentivizing them to mine the txs. So instead of the market raising fees to incentivize them to mine, we open the relief-valve-bypass where we say "fuck the miners not mining txs to the limit of 1mb" and we create artificial ...supply of space.

Next thing you know, we are at 2-4-8, because propagation sucks and increases orphan risk, a lot of miners don't even care to mine anything and we have a situation where 10-20% of the miners mine full blocks, the others don't even care. What then? Will you still say "ohhh blocks are full we need 20mb"? Will you ask devs to force miners to mine txs?

If I am an outside actor (like government, banks etc) I can always find a social engineering vector to create friction:

If the miners are mining crap, I will blame them for mining crap and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.
If the miners aren't mining much, I will blame them for not mining much and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.

We've seen this already with the block size crap and I have the feeling we'll see it again. The solution will always be the same: United we stand, divided we fall.
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January 25, 2016, 05:00:51 AM
Last edit: January 25, 2016, 05:36:40 AM by Cconvert2G36

Tell me, what will change tomorrow if you are already at the limit?

The only thing that can change is the proportion of dust/spam/bloat txs to actual transactions.

But most bigblockers don't even want to admit the situation right now and why we have the paradox of "tremendous demand", "full blocks" and ...near zero fees. They don't want to admit it's all spam that should have been cut off in the first place.

Uh? You will continue pricing out more and more transactions as they all compete for a static 2.7tps. Bleeding use cases and utility.

Technically speaking, the block size can go up any time the devs like and the miners / exchanges can sync - but users should definitely be warned a few months ahead.

If it was up to me, I would read the spirit of what satoshi meant by "need" in terms of future increases.

I don't get the sense that satoshi meant the "needs" of the spammers to bloat the blockchain. I don't get the sense from any of his late writings (when he had seen the network getting abused) that he wanted near-free txs, max block use for peanuts, leaving every spammer getting away with spamming for nothing etc. I don't get the sense that if he was running the show today that he would see a "need" to give spammers more space.

If satoshi proposed a BIP, I feel it would probably be along the lines of increasing recommended minimum fees to reduce spam and/or simultaneously increase the block size a little - having ensured though that the extra space isn't used for attacking the network and its functionality.

Miners determine what is spam and bloat. Satoshi gave his vision of a scaled network. You might have missed it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=532.msg6306#msg6306

It can jump wherever it wants if a spammer wants to spam you for peanuts and you aren't penalizing him for that, or if some miners are willing to process all the crap there is for peanuts.

Miners decide to penalize spam. Not the politburo. They have the incentives and the right to determine the size and fees contained in blocks they mine. Orphan(stale) risk is very real, and they won't risk 25 or 12.5 btc to include free bloat.

No, you want the devs to do that for you.

If we see it technically, you are seeking for a fee bypass mechanism which is a free-market intervention.

Nope. The mechanism is still the miners.

There are two ways to examine the network right now. One is "as is" and the other "as it should". In as-is configuration, we are seeing queues when there shouldn't be queues because the avg block is at 0.62mb instead of 1mb.

The as-it-should, would be an avg block of 0.99mb.

No, blocks shortly after the previous block will be coinbase only, distorting your metric, we will never see avg. 0.99MB with a 1MB limit.

With the as-is method, there is an extra 50%+ capacity that isn't being used because some miners aren't even interested to raise the 750kb soft limiter or are mining 0-sized blocks. Economically speaking you could say that the fees are not incentivizing them to mine the txs. So instead of the market raising fees to incentivize them to mine, we open the relief-valve-bypass where we say "fuck the miners not mining txs to the limit of 1mb" and we create artificial ...supply of space.

Nope, they can/will still set their own limits. Just without a centrally decided upper bound of 1MB.

Next thing you know, we are at 2-4-8, because propagation sucks and increases orphan risk, a lot of miners don't even care to mine anything and we have a situation where 10-20% of the miners mine full blocks, the others don't even care. What then? Will you still say "ohhh blocks are full we need 20mb"? Will you ask devs to force miners to mine txs?

Nope, if a hypothetical eloipool decides to mine 50KB blocks, that is their right. Central planning is to be avoided, and individual pool decisions are not centrally decided.

If I am an outside actor (like government, banks etc) I can always find a social engineering vector to create friction:

If the miners are mining crap, I will blame them for mining crap and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.
If the miners aren't mining much, I will blame them for not mining much and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.

You can try to convince miners to act (or not act!) against their own self interest, my guess is that they will refuse.

We've seen this already with the block size crap and I have the feeling we'll see it again. The solution will always be the same: United we stand, divided we fall.

I hope to be sending transactions in the same blocks you are, regardless of an anti DoS limit set in 2010. Smiley
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January 25, 2016, 05:01:30 AM

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