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Question: Price Target for Nov. 30, 2024:
<$75K - 2 (2.8%)
$75K to $80K - 1 (1.4%)
$80K to $85K - 2 (2.8%)
$85K to $90K - 8 (11.1%)
$90K to $95K - 12 (16.7%)
$95K to $100K - 12 (16.7%)
>$100K - 35 (48.6%)
Total Voters: 72

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26495538 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
AlexGR
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January 25, 2016, 04:01:46 AM

Telling miners, businesses, and users: "Not tonight dear.", when they understand the situation and their options is not a good strategy for Core.

What exactly is the situation?

Cointape.com :

Which fee should I use?

The fastest and cheapest transaction fee is currently 30 satoshis/byte, shown in green at the top.
For the median transaction size of 369 bytes, this results in a fee of 11,070 satoshis.


That's 4 cents / 0.04 USD for urgent first block inclusion, despite "full blocks" and 55+ mb of queued transactions. I asked "why" before but I didn't get an answer. Why don't we have 5$ fees? Why is it just 4 cents?

The answer is that the blocks are full with bogus transactions of extremely low fees. The blockchain is being artificially bloated by actors who aren't really intending to pay much or at all, for making payments that they don't really need. Let's send this back and forth 500 times for the lolz, yeah... who cares... as long as it bloats the hell out of this fucker and have the idiots shout "ohhh fullblockalypse".

Do you wait until a tire explodes on your car before you get some fresher rubber on there? "It got me home just fine today."

The analogy is wrong in the sense that you position the tire explosion in the future.

If we say that the blocks are full, the tx queue is growing etc, etc, then the tire exploded. It's not an "if", right? We hit the limit. What worse can we have?

Yet, the "disaster" we are facing are 3-4cents txs. Why? Because most of the txs in the queue are spam and dust.

Miners should not even process anything under 10 cents fees. Fuck the spammers.

That's never been my position, and I admit it's a bad analogy. It is a slow bleed away of the utility of the network, allowing competing networks to gain a foothold, while miners get 25 btc per block. An artificial competitive disadvantage. There will be no fireworks, just a slow erosion of dominance, at a crucial time period in the network's fight to gain share.

How exactly is the network bleeding utility? It's already accommodating all its transactions plus a ton of spam for free or near free, and the rates for urgent first block inclusion are at 3-4 cents and 2-5 blocks with 1-2 cents. How lower can you go? Free?

There is no network that can sustain free txs and bloat attacks. All competitive altcoins with low fees have these fees due to low usage. If you allow free txs AND you have large or frequent blocks, you are just inviting spammers to kill your coin for zero cost.
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 04:05:55 AM

How exactly is the network bleeding utility? It's already accommodating all its transactions plus a ton of spam for free or near free, and the rates for urgent first block inclusion are at 3-4 cents and 2-5 blocks with 1-2 cents. How lower can you go? Free?

There is no network that can sustain free txs and bloat attacks. All competitive altcoins with low fees have these fees due to low usage. If you allow free txs AND you have large or frequent blocks, you are just inviting spammers to kill your coin for zero cost.

Again, we're back to talking about planning for today vs tomorrow. You realize a solution will take some time I hope. Look at the average tx volume graph and tell me it jumped right to 1MB (because free shit army) and will immediately jump to 2MB if we add that capacity.

We simply differ on who should decide which transactions get included. I think it should be miners, you think it should be Core.
AlexGR
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January 25, 2016, 04:36:31 AM

How exactly is the network bleeding utility? It's already accommodating all its transactions plus a ton of spam for free or near free, and the rates for urgent first block inclusion are at 3-4 cents and 2-5 blocks with 1-2 cents. How lower can you go? Free?

There is no network that can sustain free txs and bloat attacks. All competitive altcoins with low fees have these fees due to low usage. If you allow free txs AND you have large or frequent blocks, you are just inviting spammers to kill your coin for zero cost.

Again, we're back to talking about planning for today vs tomorrow.

Tell me, what will change tomorrow if you are already at the limit?

The only thing that can change is the proportion of dust/spam/bloat txs to actual transactions.

But most bigblockers don't even want to admit the situation right now and why we have the paradox of "tremendous demand", "full blocks" and ...near zero fees. They don't want to admit it's all spam that should have been cut off in the first place.

Quote
You realize a solution will take some time I hope.

Technically speaking, the block size can go up any time the devs like and the miners / exchanges can sync - but users should definitely be warned a few months ahead.

If it was up to me, I would read the spirit of what satoshi meant by "need" in terms of future increases.

I don't get the sense that satoshi meant the "needs" of the spammers to bloat the blockchain. I don't get the sense from any of his late writings (when he had seen the network getting abused) that he wanted near-free txs, max block use for peanuts, leaving every spammer getting away with spamming for nothing etc. I don't get the sense that if he was running the show today that he would see a "need" to give spammers more space.

If satoshi proposed a BIP, I feel it would probably be along the lines of increasing recommended minimum fees to reduce spam and/or simultaneously increase the block size a little - having ensured though that the extra space isn't used for attacking the network and its functionality.

Quote
Look at the average tx volume graph and tell me it jumped right to 1MB (because free shit army) and will immediately jump to 2MB if we add that capacity.

It can jump wherever it wants if a spammer wants to spam you for peanuts and you aren't penalizing him for that, or if some miners are willing to process all the crap there is for peanuts.

Quote
We simply differ on who should decide which transactions get included. I think it should be miners, you think it should be Core.

No, you want the devs to do that for you.

If we see it technically, you are seeking for a fee bypass mechanism which is a free-market intervention.

There are two ways to examine the network right now. One is "as is" and the other "as it should". In as-is configuration, we are seeing queues when there shouldn't be queues because the avg block is at 0.62mb instead of 1mb.

The as-it-should, would be an avg block of 0.99mb.

With the as-is method, there is an extra 50%+ capacity that isn't being used because some miners aren't even interested to raise the 750kb soft limiter or are mining 0-sized blocks. Economically speaking you could say that the fees are not incentivizing them to mine the txs. So instead of the market raising fees to incentivize them to mine, we open the relief-valve-bypass where we say "fuck the miners not mining txs to the limit of 1mb" and we create artificial ...supply of space.

Next thing you know, we are at 2-4-8, because propagation sucks and increases orphan risk, a lot of miners don't even care to mine anything and we have a situation where 10-20% of the miners mine full blocks, the others don't even care. What then? Will you still say "ohhh blocks are full we need 20mb"? Will you ask devs to force miners to mine txs?

If I am an outside actor (like government, banks etc) I can always find a social engineering vector to create friction:

If the miners are mining crap, I will blame them for mining crap and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.
If the miners aren't mining much, I will blame them for not mining much and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.

We've seen this already with the block size crap and I have the feeling we'll see it again. The solution will always be the same: United we stand, divided we fall.
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 05:00:51 AM
Last edit: January 25, 2016, 05:36:40 AM by Cconvert2G36

Tell me, what will change tomorrow if you are already at the limit?

The only thing that can change is the proportion of dust/spam/bloat txs to actual transactions.

But most bigblockers don't even want to admit the situation right now and why we have the paradox of "tremendous demand", "full blocks" and ...near zero fees. They don't want to admit it's all spam that should have been cut off in the first place.

Uh? You will continue pricing out more and more transactions as they all compete for a static 2.7tps. Bleeding use cases and utility.

Technically speaking, the block size can go up any time the devs like and the miners / exchanges can sync - but users should definitely be warned a few months ahead.

If it was up to me, I would read the spirit of what satoshi meant by "need" in terms of future increases.

I don't get the sense that satoshi meant the "needs" of the spammers to bloat the blockchain. I don't get the sense from any of his late writings (when he had seen the network getting abused) that he wanted near-free txs, max block use for peanuts, leaving every spammer getting away with spamming for nothing etc. I don't get the sense that if he was running the show today that he would see a "need" to give spammers more space.

If satoshi proposed a BIP, I feel it would probably be along the lines of increasing recommended minimum fees to reduce spam and/or simultaneously increase the block size a little - having ensured though that the extra space isn't used for attacking the network and its functionality.

Miners determine what is spam and bloat. Satoshi gave his vision of a scaled network. You might have missed it:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=532.msg6306#msg6306

It can jump wherever it wants if a spammer wants to spam you for peanuts and you aren't penalizing him for that, or if some miners are willing to process all the crap there is for peanuts.

Miners decide to penalize spam. Not the politburo. They have the incentives and the right to determine the size and fees contained in blocks they mine. Orphan(stale) risk is very real, and they won't risk 25 or 12.5 btc to include free bloat.

No, you want the devs to do that for you.

If we see it technically, you are seeking for a fee bypass mechanism which is a free-market intervention.

Nope. The mechanism is still the miners.

There are two ways to examine the network right now. One is "as is" and the other "as it should". In as-is configuration, we are seeing queues when there shouldn't be queues because the avg block is at 0.62mb instead of 1mb.

The as-it-should, would be an avg block of 0.99mb.

No, blocks shortly after the previous block will be coinbase only, distorting your metric, we will never see avg. 0.99MB with a 1MB limit.

With the as-is method, there is an extra 50%+ capacity that isn't being used because some miners aren't even interested to raise the 750kb soft limiter or are mining 0-sized blocks. Economically speaking you could say that the fees are not incentivizing them to mine the txs. So instead of the market raising fees to incentivize them to mine, we open the relief-valve-bypass where we say "fuck the miners not mining txs to the limit of 1mb" and we create artificial ...supply of space.

Nope, they can/will still set their own limits. Just without a centrally decided upper bound of 1MB.

Next thing you know, we are at 2-4-8, because propagation sucks and increases orphan risk, a lot of miners don't even care to mine anything and we have a situation where 10-20% of the miners mine full blocks, the others don't even care. What then? Will you still say "ohhh blocks are full we need 20mb"? Will you ask devs to force miners to mine txs?

Nope, if a hypothetical eloipool decides to mine 50KB blocks, that is their right. Central planning is to be avoided, and individual pool decisions are not centrally decided.

If I am an outside actor (like government, banks etc) I can always find a social engineering vector to create friction:

If the miners are mining crap, I will blame them for mining crap and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.
If the miners aren't mining much, I will blame them for not mining much and promote some new fork that "fixes" the problem.

You can try to convince miners to act (or not act!) against their own self interest, my guess is that they will refuse.

We've seen this already with the block size crap and I have the feeling we'll see it again. The solution will always be the same: United we stand, divided we fall.

I hope to be sending transactions in the same blocks you are, regardless of an anti DoS limit set in 2010. Smiley
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January 25, 2016, 05:01:30 AM

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peonminer
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January 25, 2016, 05:45:41 AM

Core supporters be like https://youtu.be/mXYgEjFmZDw
Cconvert2G36
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January 25, 2016, 05:57:48 AM

Core supporters be like https://youtu.be/mXYgEjFmZDw

They should be holding up 5850's, 5970's, 6970's, 6990's, and lo! the refugees from altcoinin' with their 7950's and 2-3XX's!
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January 25, 2016, 06:01:46 AM

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January 25, 2016, 07:01:30 AM

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January 25, 2016, 08:01:33 AM

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January 25, 2016, 09:01:30 AM

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Karartma1
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January 25, 2016, 09:21:58 AM

we are trading around 400$ but all seems verty quiet, even chartbuddy was left alone for 4 hours  Smiley
low volumes on all major exchanges by the way, almost peaceful I would say
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January 25, 2016, 09:40:48 AM

we are trading around 400$ but all seems verty quiet, even chartbuddy was left alone for 4 hours  Smiley
low volumes on all major exchanges by the way, almost peaceful I would say

too "peaceful" for my taste...
the slow down-bleeding-push-up-down-bleeding for the past few days is no good sign...
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January 25, 2016, 09:51:59 AM
Last edit: January 25, 2016, 10:10:02 AM by 600watt

i see blocksize fighting is still flooding all the threads. it has actually one really good side: all the scared (or not so scared opponents) of bitcoin will not really roll out big funds or effort or both to kill bitcoin. because the way they percieve it through ms media (and even through the forums) bitcoin is killing itself really nice anyway. their incentive to fight seriously is low. they yawn.

so, thank you mr hearn. you might be one hell of a double agent...   Wink

edit: typo
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January 25, 2016, 10:01:31 AM

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BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 25, 2016, 10:12:10 AM

Things that may feel like a malicious attack to one side, would be considered a moral necessity to protect Bitcoin by the other. All actions are likely to be good intentioned by those carrying them out so try not to take them personally, remember, all parties believe they are acting in the best interests of Bitcoin.

https://seebitcoin.com/2016/01/forking-crazy-a-dramatic-speculation-on-how-a-contentious-hard-fork-could-play-out/
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January 25, 2016, 10:41:07 AM

i see blocksize fighting is still flooding all the threads ...
opponents of bitcoin will not ...
their incentive to fight seriously is low. they yawn. ...

Unless blocksize fighting isn't (in a part) actually their fight.  Smiley
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January 25, 2016, 11:01:28 AM

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January 25, 2016, 12:01:41 PM

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hdbuck
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January 25, 2016, 12:23:02 PM
Last edit: January 25, 2016, 12:59:44 PM by hdbuck

i see blocksize fighting is still flooding all the threads ...
opponents of bitcoin will not ...
their incentive to fight seriously is low. they yawn. ...

Unless blocksize fighting isn't (in a part) actually their fight.  Smiley


Everything mainstream and involving social engineered populist/socialist (fascist?) tactics is an attack from TPTB over Bitcoin.
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