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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26382159 times)
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JorgeStolfi
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March 30, 2016, 10:38:24 AM

3. In terms of manipulation, owning Bitcoins is actually a hedge against the ongoing PM manipulation as the mechanisms existing in the gold manipulation 'industry' are not found in bitcoin.

Based on historical prices, I would guess that the floor price of gold (due to demand for jewelry, decoration, and industrial uses) is less than 400 USD/oz.  If that is correct, gold's current market price of ~1200 USD/oz is at least 3-4 times its floor price, due to demand for speculative trading (people buying it expecting to make money when its price rises) and for hedging or value storage (people buying it because they think that other investment options are more likely to lose their value).    

Demand for speculative trading and hedging is dependent on people's feelings and beliefs about the future of the economy, and therefore very fragile -- as shown by the crash of the gold price from the peak of ~1800 to ~1000 USD/oz in 2013--2015.  The overpricing is sustained by intensive marketing by the likes of Max Kaiser, Peter Schiff, ZeroHedge, etc.

Bitcoin's floor price would be due to demand for use as a currency.  The number unknown, but very low; most estimates put it below 10 USD/BTC, and there is no reason to expect it to grow very quickly. (Indeed, if the network's capacity is not lifted, it is unlikely to rise at all.)  So bitcoin is far more overpriced than gold.  As in the case of gold, the overpricing is due to demand for speculative trading and (to a much lesser extent) hedging and value storage; and is sustained by marketing by Antonopoulos, Ver, Andreessen, Silbert, etc..

Quote
4. Bitcoins are far more scarce than gold and silver. There are ~6 billion ounces of above ground gold and only 15.4 million bitcoins. That's one bitcoin for every 390 ounces. That's now. The future is actually in favor of bitcoin:gold ratio.

Scarcity by itself does not make an item valuable; for this one also needs demand that is large compared to the supply.  Tickets for last year's lottery, Soviet Trabant cars, and the hairs on my head are all very scarce, and have a hard cap on future supply; yet are not very valuable.

Moreover, an item is not effectively "scarce" if there is an abundance of adequate substitutes.  Gold has no adequate substitutes for jewelry, and its possible substitutes for certain industrial applications are even more scarce.  In contrast, one can create an infinite number of cryptocurrencies that are equivalent to bitcoin, or even better than it.  

The only advantage of bitcoin over litecoin and other altcoins is its popularity, its "brand recognition".  (It has more hashpower than the altcoins, but that is because it is more profitable to mine, which is because its coins sell for a higher price; which is again because of its popularity.)  Popularity that is not rooted in an fudamental quality is very fragile; it  could be quickly destroyed by bad news, bad management, or by good marketing of the alternatives.

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6. Even if above ground gold doubles or triples in the mid-term future, it will still preserve its value due to fiat inflating at a much faster pace. However bitcoin will be inflating at a much lower pace than both, hence being an adequate store of value, which also has good upside potential (gold's marketcap can't go 10x to 70+ trillion range with ease, unlike bitcoin which can hit 4k usd and do a 10x).

Only fools and criminals will "invest" by hoarding a currency, whether it is dollars or bitcoins.  Thus, comparing gold to dollars as store of value is a red herring -- a misleading argument that sleazy gold peddlers use all he time.  Good investments are things that will have real value due to expected real demand, not conventional value or value inflated by speculative demand; and, even better, that create real wealth.  Stocks, real estate, tools, shops are examples of such wealth-creating things that are automatically protected against inflation.  In many countries there are also bonds, issued by banks or the government, that pay back a value adjusted for inflation plus a small interest.

The term "inflation" can mean two things.  Popularly, it is any drop in the purchasing value of a currency.  Technically, it is a drop that is caused by an increase in the amount of currency in circulation, following the printing of new cash or the creation of more virtual money through easing of bank credits etc..  Bitcoin has a controlled and ultimately finite amount of the latter, so technically its inflation will decrease and eventually end.  In the popular sense, however, bitcoin's inflation  neither bounded nor temporary. The drop from ~1200 USD/BTC on 2013-11-28 to ~220 in Jan/2015 (a loss of 80% of purchasing power) was not due to the issuance of new coins.

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The Bitcoin software, network, and concept is called "Bitcoin" with a capitalized "B". Bitcoin currency units are called "bitcoins" with a lowercase "b" -- this is often abbreviated BTC.
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Fatman3001
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March 30, 2016, 11:40:20 AM


So... how's that scaling-solution-that-is-not-supposed-to-be-a-scaling-solution-so-do-not-criticize-it-for-being-a-bad-scaling-solution going?
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March 30, 2016, 12:25:47 PM

^^Speak of the Devil, and He'll appear Shocked
You know who hasn't been around?


...
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March 30, 2016, 12:31:44 PM

... Gavin's own tests reflects that Classic can have a worst case scenario 60% node drop off rate, and he is fine assuming this risk where most other developers don't like this escalated form of centralization where we already have multiple centralization problems that we need to dig out of.

assuming worst case happens.

what are the consequences of 60% node drop off rate?

Bitcoin becomes more insecure.
...

All these allusions to "insecurity" without any mentioning any specifics.
Can't we just hug it  occasionally & tell it "Darn it, you're good enough! God don't make no junk & people like you"?
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March 30, 2016, 01:05:53 PM

^^Speak of the Devil, and He'll appear Shocked
You know who hasn't been around?


...

That's a nice picture.

SAVED

Regarding milk crates. We don't have milk in bottles, so I had to buy a flimsy plastic crate and reinforce it with a chopped up curtain rod.
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March 30, 2016, 01:33:26 PM



on the other hand, if we go with classic all we get is a theoretical drop in security ( less full nodes ) ( let's not kid ourselves my paper wallets are not less secure due to hobbyist nodes getting forced out of a GROWING ecosystem  )



If you go with Classic what you get is jstolfi as Chief Philosopher, HashFastDefendantDoc as Public Relations manager, PeterR as Artist in Residence,  and jl777 as Head Developer.

Are there spots on that team for Bernie Madoff, Mark Karpeles, Trendon Shavers, Evan Duffield, and Josh Zerlan?  Don't go into the future with half a team.
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March 30, 2016, 01:44:35 PM



on the other hand, if we go with classic all we get is a theoretical drop in security ( less full nodes ) ( let's not kid ourselves my paper wallets are not less secure due to hobbyist nodes getting forced out of a GROWING ecosystem  )



If you go with Classic what you get is jstolfi as Chief Philosopher,


Yeah, if vote Core, you get


Either way, you'll be in great hands, Bitcoin Friends! Smiley
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March 30, 2016, 01:47:29 PM

BTC moving down, ETH moving up  Undecided

It's almost starting to look like ETH might take over.
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March 30, 2016, 02:10:50 PM

BTC moving down, ETH moving up  Undecided

It's almost starting to look like ETH might take over.

I better go buy an ETH debit card then to spend all of these ETHs.

Or go visit an ETH accepting restaurant.

I can use them to buy things at Amazon for a discount right?
AlexGR
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March 30, 2016, 02:11:26 PM

3. In terms of manipulation, owning Bitcoins is actually a hedge against the ongoing PM manipulation as the mechanisms existing in the gold manipulation 'industry' are not found in bitcoin.

Based on historical prices, I would guess that the floor price of gold (due to demand for jewelry, decoration, and industrial uses) is less than 400 USD/oz.  If that is correct, gold's current market price of ~1200 USD/oz is at least 3-4 times its floor price, due to demand for speculative trading (people buying it expecting to make money when its price rises) and for hedging or value storage (people buying it because they think that other investment options are more likely to lose their value).  

I tend to think of the bottom in terms of mining costs. But even mining costs are relative since they differ depending the density of the mined ground and the nature of the mining operation. In other words, a mining operation that only extracts gold as a byproduct from its main silver or copper ore, will not be drastically affected - as the other ores "subsidize" gold's extraction. Gold miners though could be out of business.

From the numbers I've seen in terms of cash costs, as these are often published by respective companies, at 400 USD/oz, the current production model doesn't cut it for a long list of companies and mining sites. And from what I'm seeing, the price levels weren't very good for increasing production compared to 2014 either (production fell).

Quote
Demand for speculative trading and hedging is dependent on people's feelings and beliefs about the future of the economy, and therefore very fragile -- as shown by the crash of the gold price from the peak of ~1800 to ~1000 USD/oz in 2013--2015.  The overpricing is sustained by intensive marketing by the likes of Max Kaiser, Peter Schiff, ZeroHedge, etc.

Well, it doesn't take too much to send the price skyrocketing in case of a systemic crisis. After all, the major gold exchanges are overleveraged "fractional reserves". Physical shortages appear quickly when there is a run on gold.

Gold pumpers, like zerohedge, schiff, etc, are not such a large factor because the west is not that big of a player regarding gold. With a global ming production of 3165 tons, China got 985 tons and India another 849.

India kind of ensures gold demand at any price. It's a cultural thing. It's not speculative. Gold is considered money-equivalent by everyone. They are not thinking that buying gold is wasting or spending money. Gold IS money and ...a superior one because it also gives social status. That's how they see it. Thus they are dumping their fiat to gold, every day, like clockwork. They also know, just as sure as the sun will rise, that in the long run the INR will fall compared to gold. They can't go wrong. They seemingly can't go wrong even on serious gold price corrections after major pumping (unlike USD/gold buyers), because the INR will drop, unlike the USD which is the currency benchmark - in a sense.

Even if gold price went /2 tomorrow morning, India would buy all of it. People there would be like "ohh, instead of 10 grams, now I can buy 20 grams with my money - wooohooo!". That's what they were doing even with small drops like 10-20%, flooding the jewelry shops, creating physical shortages.

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Bitcoin's floor price would be due to demand for use as a currency.

Bitcoin has a short, but good track record of beating devaluation in multiple currencies with poor performance while also being able to bypass capital controls. And, typically, where devaluation exists, there are also capital controls in terms of access in foreign currency. So bitcoin would definitely be more useful in such a scenario. There are probably hundreds of millions of people who need bitcoin way more than westerners do, and who would appreciate it more than westerners.

Acquiring bitcoins would be tricky through official routes (exchanges), but if I can burn local currency in power costs and convert it to altcoins / bitcoins (I'm mentioning altcoins because most of the time they can be mined with no specialized ASICs), then it's like bypassing capital controls for foreign currencies.

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The number unknown, but very low; most estimates put it below 10 USD/BTC, and there is no reason to expect it to grow very quickly. (Indeed, if the network's capacity is not lifted, it is unlikely to rise at all.)

The only way that a bottom scenario can be experienced is due to some catastrophic failure that would be impossible to fix. Catastrophic but fixable failures could result in serious dumps and confidence issues, but non-fixable issues are another issue altogether.

Capacity upgrades are not a serious market concern. At least the market says so. Price went from 200 to 400-500 in a few months, while the scaling debate was ongoing. As soon as the XT issue seemed to get buried, price rose quickly. The only thing negatively affecting price in all this period has been the orchestrated FUD and attempts to fork the currency into two - which would admittedly be very bad for the fundamentals. XT made price go down and as the risk evaporated price rose. Hearn's stunt and Classic returning with more FUD, and an attempt at contentiously forking that seemed to have a greater possibility of success, had a very negative impact. When this was put behind, price rose again.

I doubt large market players don't know what's FUD in terms of bitcoin's actual scaling capabilities, where it's strengths are (scaling value transacted), the spam issue, what's the case with full blocks and the extremely low fees allowing abuse, etc etc. I also doubt they will "buy" the FUD that core devs who are actually invested in btc (hearn isn't - he sold his) are acting against their own interests or that they will prevent bitcoin from scaling, when they are actually the only people doing scaling work.

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Moreover, an item is not effectively "scarce" if there is an abundance of adequate substitutes.  Gold has no adequate substitutes for jewelry, and its possible substitutes for certain industrial applications are even more scarce.  In contrast, one can create an infinite number of cryptocurrencies that are equivalent to bitcoin, or even better than it.  

In theory, gold is highly replaceable even in jewelry. There is no actual need for, say, a cross to be 18k or 22k gold in 100% of its weight. Not visually / not aesthetically, not practically. It could be gold-filled tungsten or lead and the owner would never tell the difference, or experience serious wear (gold filled are much better compared to gold plated which wear out). The only reason why gold is required is to give "value" for the item, yet most of the value (in western jewelry*) goes to the jeweler, not the metal. So you are buying the idea of something being expensive, not even the metal (!). The metal might cost 200$ and the jeweler may be asking for 900$ because, well, "it's jewelry, it's expensive, so since you came here to pay for something expensive, just pay it".

* In india, its waaaay closer to the price of the metal, and the metal used is typically very high purity, like 22-23K+.


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Only fools and criminals will "invest" by hoarding a currency, whether it is dollars or bitcoins.  Thus, comparing gold to dollars as store of value is a red herring -- a misleading argument that sleazy gold peddlers use all he time.

Again I'll have to use the India example of how citizens buy gold over there. Certainly not "speculators", fools, or criminals.

For westerners, betting against fiat is usually not for beating inflation, as we have more stable currencies, but it can be a political statement against the central banking scheme: "I dump my fiat and buy gold, silver or bitcoins because I don't like the fiat system and its practices". And if one can profit due to the fiat-scheme collapsing on itself due to the debt-bubble requiring a bubble in money issuance to service it, why not.

Quote
Good investments are things that will have real value due to expected real demand, not conventional value or value inflated by speculative demand; and, even better, that create real wealth.  Stocks, real estate, tools, shops are examples of such wealth-creating things that are automatically protected against inflation.

I live in Greece. Note that in the 80s we were running at inflation levels like 25% (now we are experiencing 0 to -1%).

The stock's market index is currently in the 80's level.
The real estate market is bust. It's oversold and people are "killing" their property for fractional prices of what they'd get a few years ago.
Shops are bust / unemployment hitting 30% etc.

As for tools... well... In the 80's and 90's most tools we bought in the family, like drills, spinning cutters, pressure-cement-breakers, arc welding equipment, and more mechanical stuff for manipulating metals, pipes, etc, were very expensive. Most of them were Black & Decker, Philips, Peugeot, etc. My father, being very handy with them, used them all the time and he really considered them an investment that would never depreciate. And then came the Chinese invasion, in terms of "affordable tools for everybody"...

I can now buy a drill or a rotating cutter for less than 20 euros, even with a ...German label but "made in china". There is no piece of equipment that we have from back then that has not become ridiculously cheap to buy (in its chinese equivalent version). And I can't sell my used tools for nowhere near the prices I bought them - no matter whether they are branded or not.

There are assumptions for all these things (real estate, shops, tools, stocks) which have to be TRUE in the long run, for your money to be safe. Assumptions about the rate of inflation and possible trend reversal. Assumption about the state of the stock market. Assumptions about the general well-being of the economy. Assumptions regarding the global supply of tools. Assumptions about the real estate market. In my case all these assumptions went out the window when the country switched from Drachma to the Euro - which was a political decision. Now, if a fellow Greek had bought gold 10-20-30 years ago, his money would be multiplied right now. Stocks? He could be looking at even having his capital zero'ed out, if he had a lot of stocks that went bust. Real estate? Prices rose in the 90's and early 00's but have now crashed down hard. Shops are more like a liability, etc etc. Even if he held country-issued bonds (a "safe" investment) he would have experienced a 50% haircut and the rest would be paid up to 2042 in steps. Some pensioners argue they'll be dead by then.


Quote
The term "inflation" can mean two things.  Popularly, it is any drop in the purchasing value of a currency.  Technically, it is a drop that is caused by an increase in the amount of currency in circulation, following the printing of new cash or the creation of more virtual money through easing of bank credits etc..  Bitcoin has a controlled and ultimately finite amount of the latter, so technically its inflation will decrease and eventually end.  In the popular sense, however, bitcoin's inflation  neither bounded nor temporary. The drop from ~1200 USD/BTC on 2013-11-28 to ~220 in Jan/2015 (a loss of 80% of purchasing power) was not due to the issuance of new coins.

You can argue that bitcoin rose from 10$ to 1200$ within a year so it had to catch a breath, correct and consolidate to a much higher level than its starting position. Which is how markets function.
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March 30, 2016, 02:14:21 PM

BTC moving down, ETH moving up  Undecided

It's almost starting to look like ETH might take over.

I better go buy an ETH debit card then to spend all of these ETHs.

Or go visit an ETH accepting restaurant.

I can use them to buy things at Amazon for a discount right?

You can sell ETH for USD, which is exactly what all the options you've described do with BTC Smiley
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March 30, 2016, 02:20:19 PM

BTC moving down, ETH moving up  Undecided

It's almost starting to look like ETH might take over.

I better go buy an ETH debit card then to spend all of these ETHs.

Or go visit an ETH accepting restaurant.

I can use them to buy things at Amazon for a discount right?

A convoluted way to use a debit card and Amazon coupons. I hope BTC has more going for it than that.
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March 30, 2016, 02:21:44 PM

BTC moving down, ETH moving up  Undecided

It's almost starting to look like ETH might take over.

It'll take over I tell you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_90Y8mw_HVY

(not)
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March 30, 2016, 02:26:06 PM

BTC moving down, ETH moving up  Undecided

It's almost starting to look like ETH might take over.

I better go buy an ETH debit card then to spend all of these ETHs.

Or go visit an ETH accepting restaurant.

I can use them to buy things at Amazon for a discount right?

I know ETH has no usage but usage doesn't matter right now at the early stages. What matters is speculaton.
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March 30, 2016, 02:30:40 PM

BTC moving down, ETH moving up  Undecided

It's almost starting to look like ETH might take over.

I better go buy an ETH debit card then to spend all of these ETHs.

Or go visit an ETH accepting restaurant.

I can use them to buy things at Amazon for a discount right?

I know ETH has no usage but usage doesn't matter right now at the early stages. What matters is speculaton.

Robert Metcalfe, the inventor of Etherium, predicts that speculation will be obsolete by 2017.

[thanks and apologies to Fatman]
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March 30, 2016, 02:54:09 PM

[thanks and apologies to Fatman]

No worries man, we've got elopak.
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March 30, 2016, 03:02:53 PM

bitcoiners are on the verge of a melt down, all thanks to the blocklimit debate, which seems to have no end in sight.
market will weigh in once its all said and done
assuming core gets their way....when we can play with LN we will either love it or hate it, and boom or bust follows.
until then its probably in everyone's best interest to PUMP dat price. ( if we can  Tongue )



Miners are afraid the market will crash if they try to switch to big block code. The only way to take away that fear is to crash the market. Then they won't fear it anymore. we won't get big blocks without a crash. We won't get a new ATH until we get big blocks. The only way up is to go down first.



are u saying that the pump in november xcewed up the blockchain scaling fix ?? that what you are implying ?? sounds about right to me. .. sounds like technology, fix one thing causes something else to break ... you still gotta fix the other thing u broke or rollback your changes. from lookin at the situation, they fixed one thing (not sure what tho) and broke something else and just left it that way... broken.
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March 30, 2016, 03:11:00 PM
Last edit: March 30, 2016, 04:07:44 PM by aztecminer

Miners are afraid the market will crash if they try to switch to big block code. The only way to take away that fear is to crash the market. Then they won't fear it anymore. we won't get big blocks without a crash. We won't get a new ATH until we get big blocks. The only way up is to go down first.

Please sell everything you have for the millionth time already. You are like a battered house wife that keeps threatening to leave , but comes crawling back again over and over again. Your threats are empty and don't instill any fear in us, and for good reason.

The small amount of classic supporters and most payment processors/banks are desperate for immediate returns from the hope that simply raising bitcoins tx capacity will cause new users to flock to bitcoin in droves regardless of the two not necessarily being correlated. (Most people didn't hear the other side to Garzik's "Fidelity problem" and what Fidelity had in store for bitcoin. )

While the rest of us on the other hand do indeed care about price and mass adoption we put those priorities as secondary to decentralization/fungibility/security/robustness. We are more interested in the technology and its implications rather than just getting wealthy in the short term.

This is why your threats to crash the price don't scare us. We will simply buy into the price and get cheaper coins, as we don't need to turn a profit today and are looking at the longterm health of bitcoin. If we are betrayed by the miners than so be it , we will sell classiccoin and invest in the new coin even if we are forced to change the consensus algo for security. Classic's roadmap is indeed not aligned with our values and we will not be threatened or coerced into any conciliation that doesn't take into account blocksize externalities and new security threats.

P.S.. This isn't a ideological allegiance to a certain banner and I could be convinced to support classic if they considered security / fungibility considerations instead of focusing principally on confirmation throughput.
]My guess is that you are desperate and frantic because you aren't getting your way and the majority of developers, users, and miners don't support your cause and you are too scared to sell because of FOMA during the halvening. I am calling your bluff, which in my case is really easy to do because I would love buying cheaper coins and can wait for bitcoin to  grow.


first part: sounds like maybe you might need to think about adjusting your priorities . it appears your playing the political correct card . if all u really care about is the technology then maybe it is YOU who should sell your bitcoins and go cheer on Blythe Masters as they are working on improving the "technology" that you hold dear that makes u not care about the price of bitcoin .

second part: then why u talking trash if u want to accumulate more bitcoins. you really are making no sense atm with your flip flops of caring and not caring about the price while you trash talk about why some people are bearish .
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March 30, 2016, 03:23:13 PM

That's the first I've heard of a fidelity problem. What is it?

It was ambiguously discussed in one of Garzik's conference speeches, which became a major selling point of why bitcoin needs to increase the blocksize immediately by suggesting that Fidelity investments is interested in using Bitcoin but cannot because the capacity is too low. What Garzik did not clarify was what they intended to use bitcoin for and how they would use the blockchain which is a crucial bit of data that is critical in context.

Fidelity wanted to make payments of zero bitcoins to track non-bitcoin related assets by storing their data in the Bitcoin network and bypass all network fees by partnering up directly with several large mining pools and paying them directly in fiat a much smaller sum. In other words , they wanted for our ecosystem to heavily subsidize their spam. Perfect example of Tragedy of the commons.

I would actually say it's a perfect example of a use case. Bitcoins are database-writing tokens. That's what they are. Why do you object to them being used to write data to a database?  You object to facts? Hatefacts? You think it's even possible to control what kind of data gets written to the database, when that database was specifically designed to be censorship-resistant?   That's a special kind of hubris. King Canute ain't got nothin' on you.


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I am also concerned with decentralization, specifically the centralization of mining in the People's Republic of China and the centralization of code development with the reference client. Now these two special interest groups core and miners) are openly colluding against their customers.  How is THAT in line with your values?

You are living in a dream world if you believe a majority of users support classic. I understand it is difficult to approximate a uservote with all the sybil attacking/cloud node promotion going on within the classic camp but there are other ways to estimate support . One way is to compare forum volume and reddit volume for active users . Even with a large and heavy campaign to attack theymos for censorship/moderation r/bitcoin still has between 2.5-3.5x the amount of live users in their subreddit  than r/btc. If classic had the support you suggest it should be trivial for you to buy enough hashing power to mine more than 4-7% of blocks.

In fact , rather than sell all your coins , if you are so intrested in Bitcoin  and its health and decentralization why don't you invest in a bunch of ASICs so you can mine Classic?

I already explained why I don't mine. 1) too difficult to compete with sibsidized electricity and cheap labor in China. 2)Mining rigs are expensive, rapidly depreciating capital goods with low liquidity relative to just buying bitcoins. 3)economies of scale mean that I would basically have to do it full time to be competitive and I have other stuff to do.


the reason i quit mining is taxes in the usa.. it makes zero sense to me to mine bitcoins and then pay income tax to the irs on the mined coins.. you might get the coins cheaper... maybe... but i think is not worth the hassle of buying the mining gear, then burn electricity mining the coins for months. it takes about three months to roi... by then u will be looking to upgrade hardware again soon .. instead, we can just buy the coins at the cheapest price we can get and do whatever, skipping the entire three months of mining to roi and paying the irs income taxes . you could writeoff your mining hardware and expenses, but in my situation that basically evened out with the income taxes i was paying. i still own all my now obsolete mining hardware tho.. mining hardware goes obsolete fast.
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March 30, 2016, 03:26:20 PM

Lol, https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4ckqxt/a_bribe_attack_is_ongoing/
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But wait... what if an attacker rents hardware instead of buying it? It's much simpler than buying hardware: no complex logistics, little overhead, no concerns about how an attack would affect hardware price. Attacker would need to pay slightly above the market price to make sure he gets more than a half of total hashpower to make sure that it's statistically certain his attack can succeed.

The most secure blockchain in the world Roll Eyes
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