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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26407897 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Elwar
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April 10, 2017, 06:34:48 AM

There may be some truth in some of the price dynamics that you are describing - yet, I am not sure if what you are saying really accounts for s-curve adoption and networking effects.  

You seem to be attributing too much to supposed upward hype, which exists, but does not seem to exist with such clarity as you seem to be ascribing to it.

Certainly. There's no way to be sure. It's good to have your own price points in the bitcoin world otherwise you'll go crazy trying to figure things out. My trend line has done well for me so far.

I also attributed much to the downward hype after 2 years of downward pricing.
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April 10, 2017, 06:43:40 AM

Has the ~1k BTC wall on Bitstamp been eaten or has it been withdrawn? Has anyone managed to catch that one? I had some work to do and missed the price breaking $1200. This trend seems extremely bullish even with North Korea aka. Jihan practically holding the network hostage.
Apparently, 2 networks Sad

How anyone with half a brain can be on this guy's side is beyond my reach.
You are absolutely right. I had just forgotten to mention Litecoin's situation considering that I was merely posting about the price of Bitcoin. It is absolutely clear that Jihan is holding Litecoin hostage.

Has the ~1k BTC wall on Bitstamp been eaten or has it been withdrawn? Has anyone managed to catch that one? I had some work to do and missed the price breaking $1200.
When I started watching it was already down to a little over 300 coins. That was eaten, followed by another 80-odd coins immediately after.
That's interesting and good to hear (rather than it being removed, which would be a sign of manipulation). The price seems to be back around $1200 again. I wonder if it will hold.
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April 10, 2017, 09:56:08 AM

Bitcoin rises again as more alts crash.

There is honestly nowhere for bitcoin to go without scalability.  Bitcoin is a currency, not money.  Low scalability is counterintuitive to how a currency functions.  A currency's value is entirely derived from flow not stock.  Bitcoin does not have value as a settlement network because being a store of value is the main required trait of a settlement system and there are FAR SUPERIOR stores of value that exist like gold and silver.  

I think you're just pissed off that the price of bitcoin goes up while the price of gold and silver is stagnating.
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April 10, 2017, 10:38:39 AM

There is honestly nowhere for bitcoin to go without scalability.  Bitcoin is a currency, not money.  Low scalability is counterintuitive to how a currency functions.  A currency's value is entirely derived from flow not stock.  Bitcoin does not have value as a settlement network because being a store of value is the main required trait of a settlement system and there are FAR SUPERIOR stores of value that exist like gold and silver.  

I think you're just pissed off that the price of bitcoin goes up while the price of gold and silver is stagnating.

Silver isn't stagnating, there's only 29 million registered ounces of silver for delivery on Comex and over ONE BILLION ounces in open interest with the highest amount of naked shorts ever seen in world history.  The paper price is completely divorced from reality.  This is why I buy it.  For anyone who wants to make money, the second you see someone manipulating the price of an asset downwards, you buy.  Whenever you see an asset artifically inflated (bitcoin), you sell.  It would only take $536 million to wipe out the Comex silver market right now - the price of a single F22.  Even the Winklevoss alone could almost wipe them out by dumping their bitcoin for silver.

The more I see the ESF/BIS attempt to rig the metals market downward - like last Friday with the most obvious manipulation ever seen - while allowing bitcoin to rise, the more it tells me bitcoin is not the place to be.  It tells me that the bankers WANT you to be in bitcoin because it's a rat trap.  They want to force you into a digital only currency.  You're doing them a favor by buying it.  They can easily come in and co-opt it via the legal system and the attack vector of exchanges and mining pools afterwards.

If bitcoin was actually a threat to bankers they would be coming at it with the same force as they do silver like this chart, but they don't try to stop bitcoin at all!  The last fucking thing I'm gonna do is allow international banking jews to herd me around into worthless assets to try and prevent the goyim from having access to real wealth.  Bitcoin is just a currency, not money.  That's why it's called cryptocurrency.  Gold and silver are money.

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April 10, 2017, 12:29:16 PM



Are you aware that you are trying to rationalise against something that you are ALMOST doing? (there's not much difference between 90% and 100%).

I don't know if the price will go up or down.... just making a point about something I find a bit incoherent.


I think that you are missing some points, possibly.

BTC constitutes less than 30% of all of my quasi-liquid investments, and within my BTC portfolio, I buy BTC on the way down and I sell BTC on the way up, and currently within my BTC portfolio I have about 90% in BTC and 10% in dollars.   That can still add up to a lot of funds in dollars.

If BTC prices go down 50%, I will still probably have nearly 98% of my funds in BTC, and I try to never run out of dollars in order to buy BTC on the way down (so I allocate small portions to continue to have dollars and kind of anticipate up and down volatility, rather than straight down).  Further, if BTC goes up 4x, I will still likely have more than 85% in BTC.. It is like raking off the profits, but still having lots of BTC and end up having lots of dollars too.

 Funny how it works like that.  I don't think you can accomplish anything similar with your investment by having 100% in dollars?   makes no sense to me.

Sure, I could allocate in different proportions, but my system seems to work pretty good, and it was even working good when my BTC balance was floating between 93% and 98% - however, recently, I had some of my own issues that caused me to have my current 90% allocation, which is a bit more lopsided towards dollars than my overall preference.  I am constantly selling on the way up and constantly buying on the way down and reconsidering - which direction to tweak - but I do not take radical moves such as selling anymore than 5% at a time, even though I could foresee maybe selling a bit higher of a proportion if the market might seem to call for such.

I understand what you are saying, and in fact it is very similar to what I do. But again, it's not that different to what that guy says he did. Only a 10% different in the betting to the upside or downside.

So basically you are hedging around 10% and he is hedging 0% of the funds allocated to Bitcoin investment. In the end what really matters the most is if you are right or wrong on your bet. Other than that, it's just a 10% difference. Also, most people can decide to allocate additional funds to Bitcoin if deemed appropiate.
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April 10, 2017, 01:27:57 PM

There is honestly nowhere for bitcoin to go without scalability.  Bitcoin is a currency, not money.  Low scalability is counterintuitive to how a currency functions.  A currency's value is entirely derived from flow not stock.  Bitcoin does not have value as a settlement network because being a store of value is the main required trait of a settlement system and there are FAR SUPERIOR stores of value that exist like gold and silver. 

I think you're just pissed off that the price of bitcoin goes up while the price of gold and silver is stagnating.

Silver isn't stagnating, there's only 29 million registered ounces of silver for delivery on Comex and over ONE BILLION ounces in open interest with the highest amount of naked shorts ever seen in world history.  The paper price is completely divorced from reality.  This is why I buy it.  For anyone who wants to make money, the second you see someone manipulating the price of an asset downwards, you buy.  Whenever you see an asset artifically inflated (bitcoin), you sell.  It would only take $536 million to wipe out the Comex silver market right now - the price of a single F22.  Even the Winklevoss alone could almost wipe them out by dumping their bitcoin for silver.

The more I see the ESF/BIS attempt to rig the metals market downward - like last Friday with the most obvious manipulation ever seen - while allowing bitcoin to rise, the more it tells me bitcoin is not the place to be.  It tells me that the bankers WANT you to be in bitcoin because it's a rat trap.  They want to force you into a digital only currency.  You're doing them a favor by buying it.  They can easily come in and co-opt it via the legal system and the attack vector of exchanges and mining pools afterwards.

If bitcoin was actually a threat to bankers they would be coming at it with the same force as they do silver like this chart, but they don't try to stop bitcoin at all!  The last fucking thing I'm gonna do is allow international banking jews to herd me around into worthless assets to try and prevent the goyim from having access to real wealth.  Bitcoin is just a currency, not money.  That's why it's called cryptocurrency.  Gold and silver are money.



silver down 35-50c =/= the most obvious manipulation ever seen?

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April 10, 2017, 02:01:41 PM

silver down 35-50c =/= the most obvious manipulation ever seen?

Yes, it happened in the face of all fundamentals pointing it upwards with shit jobs report and Trump starting wars.  There's even people on mainstream media now talking about the BIS rigging the market:

http://www.silverdoctors.com/gold/gold-news/chris-powell-reveals-the-primary-actors-in-the-gold-market/



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April 10, 2017, 02:14:44 PM
Last edit: April 10, 2017, 02:27:44 PM by TrumpD

Gold and Silver respond to economic uncertainty more than anything. Now that people have gotten used to the "new normal" prices will be flat or recede. The next climb will be triggered by the next economic crisis, be it no one purchasing treasury notes, or rapid inflation, if that occurs. Otherwise, it's the long slide down.
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April 10, 2017, 02:30:28 PM

Multiple wars and a possible economic collapse a real possibility in the near future.
Will Bitcoin be valued or will people get scared and take all money out from non traditional investments, Bitcoin included?
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April 10, 2017, 02:32:15 PM
Last edit: April 10, 2017, 02:43:18 PM by r0ach

Gold and Silver respond to economic uncertainty more than anything. Now that people have gotten used to the "new normal" prices will be flat or recede. The next climb will be triggered by the next economic crisis, be it no one purchasing treasury notes, or rapid inflation, if that occurs. Otherwise, it's the long slide down.

Worst hypothesis ever.  "Metals to 0 unless economic uncertainty".  If that's the case, bitcoin must be headed below 0 since it's a currency and not money that provides no utility above competing digital currencies like USD or airline miles.  The fed also targets a 2% inflation rate, but real inflation is usually vastly higher, and metals tend to have something like 1% inflation.  We also just hit peak gold and silver recently, but mining was just an excess energy arbitrage game in the first place, and energy return on investment for fossil fuels is now cratering causing all the oil companies to bankrupt.  

So, both raw supply of metals and the energy arb game are now going up in smoke, which is going to put some extreme scarcity on new supply.  Most metals still in the ground are gonna forever stay there in the near future in other words.
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April 10, 2017, 02:35:30 PM

Gold and Silver respond to economic uncertainty more than anything. Now that people have gotten used to the "new normal" prices will be flat or recede. The next climb will be triggered by the next economic crisis, be it no one purchasing treasury notes, or rapid inflation, if that occurs. Otherwise, it's the long slide down.

Worst hypothesis ever.  "Metals to 0 unless economic uncertainty".  If that's the case, bitcoin must be headed below 0 since it's a currency and not money that provides no utility above competing digital currencies like USD or airline miles.

How does Gold and silver offer utility. Remember they were used as a currency before and also governments no longer use gold as a backing for their currency. There is actually zero use for gold. Silver does have real applications.
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April 10, 2017, 02:39:59 PM

gold underpins lots of electronics and aerospace parts among other things. i still have absolutely no desire to own any.

why isn't this roach guy on a precious metal forum instead?
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April 10, 2017, 02:41:43 PM



Are you aware that you are trying to rationalise against something that you are ALMOST doing? (there's not much difference between 90% and 100%).

I don't know if the price will go up or down.... just making a point about something I find a bit incoherent.


I think that you are missing some points, possibly.

BTC constitutes less than 30% of all of my quasi-liquid investments, and within my BTC portfolio, I buy BTC on the way down and I sell BTC on the way up, and currently within my BTC portfolio I have about 90% in BTC and 10% in dollars.   That can still add up to a lot of funds in dollars.

If BTC prices go down 50%, I will still probably have nearly 98% of my funds in BTC, and I try to never run out of dollars in order to buy BTC on the way down (so I allocate small portions to continue to have dollars and kind of anticipate up and down volatility, rather than straight down).  Further, if BTC goes up 4x, I will still likely have more than 85% in BTC.. It is like raking off the profits, but still having lots of BTC and end up having lots of dollars too.

 Funny how it works like that.  I don't think you can accomplish anything similar with your investment by having 100% in dollars?   makes no sense to me.

Sure, I could allocate in different proportions, but my system seems to work pretty good, and it was even working good when my BTC balance was floating between 93% and 98% - however, recently, I had some of my own issues that caused me to have my current 90% allocation, which is a bit more lopsided towards dollars than my overall preference.  I am constantly selling on the way up and constantly buying on the way down and reconsidering - which direction to tweak - but I do not take radical moves such as selling anymore than 5% at a time, even though I could foresee maybe selling a bit higher of a proportion if the market might seem to call for such.

I understand what you are saying, and in fact it is very similar to what I do. But again, it's not that different to what that guy says he did. Only a 10% different in the betting to the upside or downside.

So basically you are hedging around 10% and he is hedging 0% of the funds allocated to Bitcoin investment. In the end what really matters the most is if you are right or wrong on your bet. Other than that, it's just a 10% difference. Also, most people can decide to allocate additional funds to Bitcoin if deemed appropiate.


I personally think that it makes a big difference to bet 100% versus betting 90%, and to play around with the 90% in the system that I employ (and maybe you too with the something similar that you mention).

There is a mindset difference too, to gamble everything in one direction or another versus the hedging that does not cause as much of a betting behavior.

In the end, I will admit that my overall approach is biased in favor of long term upwards price movements and relies upon a certain amount of ongoing volatility to increase its profitability.  Otherwise, the application of my whole systematic approach is almost non-thinking.  It is like the application of an algorithm (like a bot) to almost assuredly make money as long as you stick to the system.

Without giving some kind of details regarding how the betting 100% one way or another works, it does not seem like that guy is employing any kind of system, except for luck and guessing.  So, maybe in the end, I need more details from that other guy regarding how he employs his seemingly guessing game system. 

In other words, he guesses on the direction of the prices and I do not... there is a whole hell of a lot of difference in those two kinds of systems and those two ways of thinking (even though you are trying to argue that they are almost the same, when they are not).

Maybe an example might help?    This is not exactly my whole system, but it is the main part of my system.

Let's say in my system, I begin trading with 10 coins, and BTC price are around $300, and I trade for 2 years with the same amount of coins and I use those proceeds from those trades to buy back.  For some reason, you would think that after 2 years, and reaching a 90% allocation, that once BTC prices reached $1,200 my system would cause me to have 9 coins and about $1,200?  Right?  But instead my system has allowed me to have 10 coins and $1,200 with the same amount of investment.  I don't know the math exactly, but for some reason, my system seems to have allowed me to maintain the same amount of coins and to stack dollars. 


Personally, with the betting 100% system, I really don't think that systematically a person could have as much confidence to have the similar kinds of consistent results if he was continuously betting 100% in one direction or another.  In my opinion, just seems to be too much reliance on luck and too much reliance that at one point or another, the bet is going to go wrong which in the end causes long term losses rather than gains.
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April 10, 2017, 02:44:50 PM

gold underpins lots of electronics and aerospace parts among other things. i still have absolutely no desire to own any.

why isn't this roach guy on a precious metal forum instead?

because people that invest in precious metals are too close minded to have any interesting discussion

and I doubt that there is a precious metal forum with any movement
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April 10, 2017, 02:48:39 PM
Last edit: April 10, 2017, 03:02:56 PM by r0ach

Gold and Silver respond to economic uncertainty more than anything. Now that people have gotten used to the "new normal" prices will be flat or recede. The next climb will be triggered by the next economic crisis, be it no one purchasing treasury notes, or rapid inflation, if that occurs. Otherwise, it's the long slide down.

Worst hypothesis ever.  "Metals to 0 unless economic uncertainty".  If that's the case, bitcoin must be headed below 0 since it's a currency and not money that provides no utility above competing digital currencies like USD or airline miles.

How does Gold and silver offer utility. Remember they were used as a currency before and also governments no longer use gold as a backing for their currency. There is actually zero use for gold. Silver does have real applications.

Because there are various traits required for something to function as money, and the noble metals are the #1 best thing humans have found for the task so far, and of the noble metals, only gold and silver really have use for that purpose.  There are some SERIOUSLY delusional people on this forum.  You do not ask the question "how do gold and silver compete with bitcoin?".  That's a question some type of idiot millenial child would ask.  

Metals are the best standard of money humans have found so far.  The question you ask is "how does bitcoin compete with metals?", and the answer is, it doesn't.  Bitcoin is not even fungible.  Claiming it's better than metals is a joke when it doesn't even have the required traits of money in the first place.  If you own the private key you don't really even own the bitcoin because bitcoin has numerous external dependencies creating vast amounts of counter party risk.  

That and the fact that any non-fungible token is a permissioned ledger by default, which is why the bankers want you to use it and don't attempt to stop it.  I also already explained why bitcoin does not function as a store of value here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1442399.msg18167916#msg18167916
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April 10, 2017, 03:05:13 PM

gold underpins lots of electronics and aerospace parts among other things. i still have absolutely no desire to own any.
why isn't this roach guy on a precious metal forum instead?
because people that invest in precious metals are too close minded to have any interesting discussion
and I doubt that there is a precious metal forum with any movement
Oh I think the goldbugs are quite on the right track. Maybe missing out on tech development a bit, but still on the right track. Momentum of history, first mover advantage of sorts.
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April 10, 2017, 03:44:59 PM

I was a gold bug before Bitcoin. My biggest thing was that I wanted it to replace the dollar. So I wanted to be able to use it for day to day purchases while holding it as it gained value over time as opposed to the dollar where loss of value is a built in feature.

But when I looked into different ways of holding gold and spending it (like with a Visa card) it cost X amount of gold per month to store your gold and pay for auditing of the gold. And it cost a huge exchange rate per purchase. So it was definitely not practical to use as a primary currency. For store of value, sure.

But for me, I travel all over the world with all of my possessions. There is no way I would carry gold around with me through airports. With Bitcoin I can have a string of characters encrypted somewhere on the cloud or written on a piece of paper in my shoe or however I want to have it when I travel. I can move with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins over borders without a care in the world.

If I lived in a house with a secure safe, well hidden, then I would buy gold as a store of value. Not to use as a currency though.
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April 10, 2017, 04:04:35 PM

I personally think that it makes a big difference to bet 100% versus betting 90%, and to play around with the 90% in the system that I employ (and maybe you too with the something similar that you mention).

Only a 10% difference, even if it psycologicaly makes you have a much different perception.

Quote
There is a mindset difference too, to gamble everything in one direction or another versus the hedging that does not cause as much of a betting behavior.

Yes, I agree in the mindset difference. But it is just that, a mindset difference, not a REAL difference.

Quote
In the end, I will admit that my overall approach is biased in favor of long term upwards price movements and relies upon a certain amount of ongoing volatility to increase its profitability.  Otherwise, the application of my whole systematic approach is almost non-thinking.  It is like the application of an algorithm (like a bot) to almost assuredly make money as long as you stick to the system.

That's it. You are "betting" on long term up direction, and you are doing it with 90% of your bitcoin allocated funds. It's no wonder you have had a great result overall for the past two years.

And with the 10% you have been basically scalping, which might have given you even better results. That's ok. But most of your great results are because of an "almost all in" bet in the right direction.

If this past two years the direction of price would have been downtrend.... you would have had a pretty poor result no matter the small 10% hedge you were using.

Quote
Without giving some kind of details regarding how the betting 100% one way or another works, it does not seem like that guy is employing any kind of system, except for luck and guessing.  So, maybe in the end, I need more details from that other guy regarding how he employs his seemingly guessing game system. 

He is employing a "system". He thought the price direction could be downwards and got all out. If he is right, good for him, he will get all in when he deems appropiate price. If he is wrong... maybe he will also go all in (at a "loss") if he thinks the price will keep going upwards.

The only difference I appreciate is that you devote a 10% to sorta scalp and he doesnt. I like scalping. I was a big time scalper in 2013 (with very good results btw), until I ended "all in" because the price came lower than I would sell any more nor invest one more buck. I just let it sit, until I started again buying (not selling) in 2015 after the dump to $300 right after the $500 spike.

But scalping/hedging with 10% is still 10%. Your result is mostly defined by the 90% you have in a bet of long term upside (which I also share, btw).

Quote
In other words, he guesses on the direction of the prices and I do not... there is a whole hell of a lot of difference in those two kinds of systems and those two ways of thinking (even though you are trying to argue that they are almost the same, when they are not).

Of course you are "guessing/betting" on one direction. You are doing it with 90% of your allocated funds on upside move!
In fact you are also doing it with the 10%.... Yes, you are reserving it in a bet on a possible downwards movement. Call it hedging, or whatever you want, but its also a guess/bet.... Otherwise you would be 100% on your feeling.

Quote
Maybe an example might help?    This is not exactly my whole system, but it is the main part of my system.

An example? Well, maybe you think that guy is all out and if the price keeps rising he will keep forever out.... But he can change its mind if price keeps rising an additional 10% and now he thinks it will keep rising for sure. Yes, he will have lose a 10% profit, but again, you also did for not being all in. So both of you are on par on that.

In the end, I am just trying to say that we are all betting on up and down, no matter if you do with 100%, 90% or any other arbitrary percentage of funds. What is really important is that we don't do it with more than we can afford to lose/keep frozen for a long time.... if that happens, you are fucked big time.

Quote
Let's say in my system, I begin trading with 10 coins, and BTC price are around $300, and I trade for 2 years with the same amount of coins and I use those proceeds from those trades to buy back.  For some reason, you would think that after 2 years, and reaching a 90% allocation, that once BTC prices reached $1,200 my system would cause me to have 9 coins and about $1,200?  Right?  But instead my system has allowed me to have 10 coins and $1,200 with the same amount of investment.  I don't know the math exactly, but for some reason, my system seems to have allowed me to maintain the same amount of coins and to stack dollars. 

Your system have been working for you because:

1) Mainly you have been almost all in, in a bull market.
2) YOu have been scalping, buying the dips and selling the spikes in a bull market.

If you would have been doing the same in a downtrend market you would feel very different about your system.

Quote
Personally, with the betting 100% system, I really don't think that systematically a person could have as much confidence to have the similar kinds of consistent results if he was continuously betting 100% in one direction or another.  In my opinion, just seems to be too much reliance on luck and too much reliance that at one point or another, the bet is going to go wrong which in the end causes long term losses rather than gains.

Oh, you don't need to always be right with a 100% betting system. You just need to be right more than 50% of the bets. Again not much more different than any other system bassed on percentage of allocated funds to be in/out and hedge.
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April 10, 2017, 04:06:13 PM

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Good to see we're still over $1200... $1212USD (Bitcoinaverage).

It's been pretty much flat since this time yesterday. Consolidation is good.

Keep the steps up steady and moderate. Gradual growth is best.
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April 10, 2017, 05:39:41 PM

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Good to see we're still over $1200... $1212USD (Bitcoinaverage).

It's been pretty much flat since this time yesterday. Consolidation is good.

Keep the steps up steady and moderate. Gradual growth is best.
step by step  Wink
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