Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Dabs]

Like I said before, bitcoin is a ponzi scheme created by "some guy".  Gold and silver are a ponzi scheme created by *god.  The latter is obviously going to be better.

I'll join.

I disagree.

Bitcoin is more like an economic bubble than a ponzi scheme per se. There is no one central authority people can charge or run after. It is also not fraudulent.

In most economic bubbles, there is no single person or group misrepresenting the intrinsic value.

Items traded in an economic bubble are much more likely to have an intrinsic value that is worth a substantial proportion of the market price. Therefore, following collapse of an economic bubble (especially one in a commodity such as real estate) the items affected will often retain some value, whereas an investment that is part of a Ponzi scheme will typically be worthless (or very close to worthless).

The latter is only better in so far as you have physical possession of your precious metal, which is at the same time, both its strength and its weakness. While you could argue that you could carry $50,000 USD worth of gold on your person, it's far easier to "carry" $5 million worth of bitcoin.

It's good to have both. I'll be getting myself some bullion soon.

[orpington]

Like I said before, bitcoin is a ponzi scheme created by "some guy".  Gold and silver are a ponzi scheme created by *god.  The latter is obviously going to be better.

I'll join.

I disagree.

Bitcoin is more like an economic bubble than a ponzi scheme per se. There is no one central authority people can charge or run after. It is also not fraudulent.

In most economic bubbles, there is no single person or group misrepresenting the intrinsic value.

Items traded in an economic bubble are much more likely to have an intrinsic value that is worth a substantial proportion of the market price. Therefore, following collapse of an economic bubble (especially one in a commodity such as real estate) the items affected will often retain some value, whereas an investment that is part of a Ponzi scheme will typically be worthless (or very close to worthless).

The latter is only better in so far as you have physical possession of your precious metal, which is at the same time, both its strength and its weakness. While you could argue that you could carry $50,000 USD worth of gold on your person, it's far easier to "carry" $5 million worth of bitcoin.

It's good to have both. I'll be getting myself some bullion soon.

Absolutely, in the final analysis, best to have both.

That way you "probably" can't lose.

[r0ach]

It's good to have both. I'll be getting myself some bullion soon.

I find it funny that on Zerohedge people argue about whether bitcoin or ethereum is better and the end result of what is "better" is not determined by any characteristics of the cryptocurrency, but whichever one is easiest to convert to silver or gold.  The current Zerohedge stance is that Ethereum is 100% useless since no bullion dealers accept it.

[stereotype]

Dont know who is more dull and pathetic .....r0ach, for making 8 year old arguments that have been done to death, or the plebs who feel delusion needs to be answered/quoted.

[JayJuanGee]

Hm, they've cycled back into ETH again. Trying to push it over USD ATH to ignite yet more fomo.

I know that we want to keep on writing off ETH - but there is continued and ongoing pump..


So, yeah, we keep thinking that the bubble and the smoke and mirrors is going to pop and come to a close - but does not want to stop... goes up instead of down?  continues to baffle me.

[Pente]

Hm, they've cycled back into ETH again. Trying to push it over USD ATH to ignite yet more fomo.

I know that we want to keep on writing off ETH - but there is continued and ongoing pump..


So, yeah, we keep thinking that the bubble and the smoke and mirrors is going to pop and come to a close - but does not want to stop... goes up instead of down?  continues to baffle me.

Just invest a large amount of money into it, then it will pop 

[r0ach]

I know that we want to keep on writing off ETH - but there is continued and ongoing pump..

It's a 90,000 BTC volume digibyte day on Poloniex.  If there was ever a sign cryptocurrency has reached peak pump and dump, this is it.  There is no schelling point for any of this crap.  There's also no schelling point for bitcoin because it will always be highly constrained by scalability and thus high fees.  "Money" that requires some type of fees solely to exist at all (constant payment to miners 24/7) is also the hallmark trait of a debt based currency. 

Our current debt based US dollar is a rent seeking usury system that requires a constant interest payment for the money to exist.  Bitcoin is basically the same thing, just the whole process is obfuscated so that you don't know who the beneficiaries are.  The current beneficiaries are the Chinese mining cartel, but if bitcoin didn't die, they would eventually be replaced by the same international bankers from the BIS who run the US dollar running the mining pools.  They'll just toss in some enormous regulatory hurdles where virtually nobody can mine economically without being a criminal, then they'll slip in and run the pools, hike fees to the moon, and censor any transactions or change the protocol at will.

There is no way to escape these people via the digital domain.  The only way out of the debt based and/or usury system is by physical metals used in native coin form.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Hm, they've cycled back into ETH again. Trying to push it over USD ATH to ignite yet more fomo.

I know that we want to keep on writing off ETH - but there is continued and ongoing pump..


So, yeah, we keep thinking that the bubble and the smoke and mirrors is going to pop and come to a close - but does not want to stop... goes up instead of down?  continues to baffle me.

Just invest a large amount of money into it, then it will pop  

This is becoming a serious.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/05/cryptocurrency-ponzi-schemes/528624/?utm_source=Blockchain+Daily+News&utm_campaign=d11a456ca5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f86c129914-d11a456ca5-82438491
A very serious.

[FractalUniverse]

There is no way to escape these people via the digital domain.  The only way out of the debt based and/or usury system is by physical metals used in native coin form.

What if they decide to confiscate or heavily tax possession of gold and silver one day? there is no escape

[Qartada]

I know that we want to keep on writing off ETH - but there is continued and ongoing pump..

It's a 90,000 BTC volume digibyte day on Poloniex.  If there was ever a sign cryptocurrency has reached peak pump and dump, this is it. 

For now, true.  People are getting desperate with the cryptocurrencies they pump.

There is no schelling point for any of this crap.  There's also no schelling point for bitcoin because it will always be highly constrained by scalability and thus high fees.  "Money" that requires some type of fees solely to exist at all (constant payment to miners 24/7) is also the hallmark trait of a debt based currency. 

Try transporting a few ingots of gold all the way to the other side of the world safely.  I think you'll find that the costs are hundreds of times higher than Bitcoin transaction fees, and it takes many times longer.

Our current debt based US dollar is a rent seeking usury system that requires a constant interest payment for the money to exist.  Bitcoin is basically the same thing, just the whole process is obfuscated so that you don't know who the beneficiaries are. 

So I guess when transporting that gold, the beneficiaries are the commercial airlines.  

There is no way to escape these people via the digital domain.  The only way out of the debt based and/or usury system is by physical metals used in native coin form.

I think you're forgetting that there aren't many scarce physical resources to be controlled.  With cryptocurrencies there's a theoretically unlimited number, which makes them near impossible to regulate.

[r0ach]

There is no way to escape these people via the digital domain.  The only way out of the debt based and/or usury system is by physical metals used in native coin form.

What if they decide to confiscate or heavily tax possession of gold and silver one day? there is no escape

The answer to that question is simple.  It's highly cost effective and easy for bankers who have co-opted the government to turn the internet into a police state where all transactions can be tracked, monitored, and gouged for fees, while it takes thousands of orders of magnitude more energy and resources to monitor every square inch of physical space in the real world, as opposed to the digital one.  It's just not doable.  Real freedom is found where it's not economical to establish a police state, not places where it's cheap and easy.

[FractalUniverse]

Hm, they've cycled back into ETH again. Trying to push it over USD ATH to ignite yet more fomo.

I know that we want to keep on writing off ETH - but there is continued and ongoing pump..


So, yeah, we keep thinking that the bubble and the smoke and mirrors is going to pop and come to a close - but does not want to stop... goes up instead of down?  continues to baffle me.

Just invest a large amount of money into it, then it will pop  

This is becoming a serious.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/05/cryptocurrency-ponzi-schemes/528624/?utm_source=Blockchain+Daily+News&utm_campaign=d11a456ca5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f86c129914-d11a456ca5-82438491
A very serious.

Of course, many former HYIP admins moved to crypto world.
And ETH + ICOs. eth is becoming massive platform harboring various ponzis. Most of the 'projects' are just fake. But people will fall for it anyway. No warning is being listened to.

If this becomes too big, it will shed very bad publicity on crypto world. And authorities will have one more reason for crack down and to heavily regulate everything.

[Wekkel]

If this becomes too big, it will shed very bad publicity on crypto world. And authorities will have one more reason for crack down and to heavily regulate everything.

Then this will move to dark corners of the Internet. As a regulator, I would be cautious giving people incentives to go System-D.

[European Central Bank]

This is becoming a serious.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/05/cryptocurrency-ponzi-schemes/528624/?utm_source=Blockchain+Daily+News&utm_campaign=d11a456ca5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f86c129914-d11a456ca5-82438491
A very serious.

anyone who can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds googling deserves to have onecoin steal their money. it also has nothing to do with any real crypto market. existing laws will get them eventually.

as for the ico thing. dunno.

[Wekkel]

[LocoMB]

can you post a link to some explanation of those two indicators in these panels please? the PVI and Chaitin index?

Looks interesting what data did you use?
 Thanks!

[xhomerx10]

can you post a link to some explanation of those two indicators in these panels please? the PVI and Chaitin index?

Looks interesting what data did you use?
 Thanks!

Chaikin
PVI (Positive Volume Index)

This site explains many technical terms - https://www.metastock.com/customer/resources/taaz/default.aspx

[Nagadota]

This is becoming a serious.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/05/cryptocurrency-ponzi-schemes/528624/?utm_source=Blockchain+Daily+News&utm_campaign=d11a456ca5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_05_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f86c129914-d11a456ca5-82438491
A very serious.

anyone who can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds googling deserves to have onecoin steal their money. it also has nothing to do with any real crypto market. existing laws will get them eventually.

No one deserves to have their money stolen by anyone.  What you forget is that it's the scammers who usually end up gaining from this, and the scammers deserve to lose their money much more than any victim does.

Onecoin basically collapsed right at the start of the year, didn't it?  If so, why is it taking so long for all these scammers to get arrested?  They have quite a public presence, to say the least.

as for the ico thing.  dunno.

ICOs are being used by scammers, and there are a lot of extremely scammy looking ICOs like Ethereum.link.  But I don't think they have to be - it's just a poorly regulated market.  This could change completely in the coming months if the ICO hype doesn't lose its steam (pretty big if.

[European Central Bank]

No one deserves to have their money stolen by anyone.  

of course they don't. but what they're doing by being blinded by greed and not spending a few seconds trying to figure out whether it's a scam or not is voluntarily opening their wallet to anyone.

people with any sense would walk away. people without sense shouldn't be in charge of their own money. i feel bad for them but it's so obvious i don't feel sorry for them.

[Elwar]

There is no way to escape these people via the digital domain.  The only way out of the debt based and/or usury system is by physical metals used in native coin form.

What if they decide to confiscate or heavily tax possession of gold and silver one day? there is no escape

The answer to that question is simple.  It's highly cost effective and easy for bankers who have co-opted the government to turn the internet into a police state where all transactions can be tracked, monitored, and gouged for fees, while it takes thousands of orders of magnitude more energy and resources to monitor every square inch of physical space in the real world, as opposed to the digital one.  It's just not doable.  Real freedom is found where it's not economical to establish a police state, not places where it's cheap and easy.

The US has outlaws gold before, don't think they wouldn't do it again.

Or worse...they outlaw tungsten then all the gold holders are going down.