Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[TheKoziTwo]

Bitcoin = Napster
Ripple = iTunes

Napster was centralized by the way. That's how it got shut down. If anything, put the equal sign between bitcoin and bittorrent if you want an analogy.

[moocowpong1]

TradeFortress's Ripple scam is the "I'll give XYZ if you give me your private key" of the Ripple world. He's shamelessly duping people who don't understand Ripple. That's not a flaw in the underlying protocol, but it is a "social flaw" surrounding Ripple.

I seriously don't understand why people are paying so much for XRP, though. It's a system with a lot of promise and some flaws (including social flaws), but the market cap for XRP is *insane*. It's a totally unproven system. We don't even know if its fundamental innovation (the consensus system) really works in the real world.

[oda.krell]

Ripple

i think we all should do some home work

from what i've read ripple can become a powerful tool. and bitcoin would be better off if every bitcoiner knew exactly what it is all about and how to use it.

 

I'm not claiming to have full technical knowledge of Ripple (but neither do I have that level of knowledge of Bitcoin), but I do know enough about it to believe that the arguments in defense of it all seemed to ignore one basic problem many bitcoin followers have: it's centralized, and there is no indication that this will ever change.

Rampion's post is an excellent summary of why I don't trust, and don't feel like supporting Ripple (I agree with everything except the last paragraph about the founders "cashing out". They will never do such a thing, as it would instaneously destroy their wealth in the process).

If you feel that anyone who's critical of Ripple is just (consciously or not) trying to defend his own get-rich stake in Bitcoin, then I guess I can't really argue any further.

[moocowpong1]

And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

[Rampion]

Look at the market depth in the Ripple trade system.

It's a joke.

Total ask sum (BTC/XRP Bitstamp) is less than BTC600 BTC

In EUR there's no market yet.

In USD, almost nothing... With $200,000 you can buy all the bids till 1 XRP = $1, and that's only because a joker has placed a bid of aprox. $150,000 at $1/XRP

So, spend $200,000 and the XRP price will skyrocket from 50 XRP per dollar to 1/1. And there you have your $100,000,000,000 market cap

Just a fucking joke, pump and dump games, pigs getting slaughtered, etc. etc. etc.

[adamstgBit]

Ripple

i think we all should do some home work

from what i've read ripple can become a powerful tool. and bitcoin would be better off if every bitcoiner knew exactly what it is all about and how to use it.

 

I'm not claiming to have full technical knowledge of Ripple (but neither do I have that level of knowledge of Bitcoin), but I do know enough about it to believe that the arguments in defense of it all seemed to ignore one basic problem many bitcoin followers have: it's centralized, and there is no indication that this will ever change.

Rampion's post is an excellent summary of why I don't trust, and don't feel like supporting Ripple (I agree with everything except the last paragraph about the founders "cashing out". They will never do such a thing, as it would instaneously destroy their wealth in the process).

If you feel that anyone who's critical of Ripple is just (consciously or not) trying to defend his own get-rich stake in Bitcoin, then I guess I can't really argue any further.

ya thats to bad.
but its not enough of a reason to cast it aside.

hopefully crypto does "take over" that way people actually can implement decentralized banking solutions       BITCOIN!!!!  

[Rampion]

And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

[Coinseeker]

Ripple

i think we all should do some home work

from what i've read ripple can become a powerful tool. and bitcoin would be better off if every bitcoiner knew exactly what it is all about and how to use it.

 

I'm not claiming to have full technical knowledge of Ripple (but neither do I have that level of knowledge of Bitcoin), but I do know enough about it to believe that the arguments in defense of it all seemed to ignore one basic problem many bitcoin followers have: it's centralized, and there is no indication that this will ever change.

Really, because they've said as much repeatedly.  Ripple will be decentralized.  Period.  If upon coming out of beta, it's not decentralized, all those arguments will be valid and I will join the chorus.  

[Rampion]

Ripple

i think we all should do some home work

from what i've read ripple can become a powerful tool. and bitcoin would be better off if every bitcoiner knew exactly what it is all about and how to use it.

 

I'm not claiming to have full technical knowledge of Ripple (but neither do I have that level of knowledge of Bitcoin), but I do know enough about it to believe that the arguments in defense of it all seemed to ignore one basic problem many bitcoin followers have: it's centralized, and there is no indication that this will ever change.

Rampion's post is an excellent summary of why I don't trust, and don't feel like supporting Ripple (I agree with everything except the last paragraph about the founders "cashing out". They will never do such a thing, as it would instaneously destroy their wealth in the process).

If you feel that anyone who's critical of Ripple is just (consciously or not) trying to defend his own get-rich stake in Bitcoin, then I guess I can't really argue any further.

Oda, I know it's unlikely they will suddenly "cash out" - it's just an extreme example of how much trust you have to place in OpenCoin to hold Ripples.

We all know that the very first Bitcoin purpose is to solve the trust issue.

[Coinseeker]

And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're just regurgitating Tradeforest talking points and you're not even doing a good job of it.  

I'll leave you ideological nuts to stew in your insecurities and butt hurt.  You should have fixed Bitcoin and now it may be too late.  That's your fault, not Ripple's.

[Ivanhoe]

A Ripple flamewar in a Bitcoin wall observer thread, well done guys. Are we that bored?

[Rampion]

And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're just regurgitating Tradeforest talking posts and you're not even doing a good job of it.  

Sorry? I'm using Ripple. I've been trading real money in there, as I wanted to understand it. I sent REAL BTC to Bitstamp, and they sent me BTC IOU's to Ripple. Yeah, my BTC never left the Bitstamp BTC address - they are holding them, and they sent BTC IOU's to Ripple, but they can actually do whatever they want with my BTC. They can spend them, and I would still have the BTC IOU's on Ripple. Then, Bitstamp can decide if they honor or not the IOU's they sent to my Ripple address.

Yeah: welcome to fractional reserve, welcome to creating money out of thin air.

After receiving my BTC IOU's from Bitstamp, I exchanged them for USD IOU's - and then exchanged the USD IOU's for Ripples.

The only asset you hold in Ripple are Ripples. The rest, is debt (IOU's), which issuer can decide to honor or not.

[crazy_rabbit]

I have to say that after being at the conference, talking with the Ripple guys (who did a really valient job of trying to explain to everyone how it works) I still don't understand how it works. To my credit, most people at the conference said they don't understand it. Including some of the core bitcoin dev's and a number of other talented programmers in the bitcoin world. Indeed, no one I spoke to said they really understood how it works.

So, to quote one guy at the conference: "It should make you nervous that you don't understand it".

That's my position on it for now. Speculatively it looks interesting, but the fact that I don't understand it, and guys much smarter and more experienced then myself don't understand it, makes me skeptical of it's future.

[Coinseeker]

And think about this: OpenCoin will hold to 50% of the total Ripples created. You need to grant them a LOT of trust to place money in XRPs. They can crash the market with a fart, and they may be very well decide to hold onto 80% on the XRPs. Or to 90%. They won't tell you, because they don't know, they will just do what it suits best to them.

Now compare that shit with BTC, my friend.

You only need to trust them if you hold XRP. Who cares if the XRP market crashes when you're using Ripple as a distributed cryptocurrency exchange?

What are you talking about? You do not exchange cryptocurrency in Ripple. You exchange a) XRP's or b) other cryptocurrencies IOU's

IOU's which owner can default or decide not to honor them. Only thing which is not an IOU in Ripple are Ripples - quite convenient for OpenCoin, don't you think so?

You have no idea what you're talking about.  You're just regurgitating Tradeforest talking posts and you're not even doing a good job of it.  

Sorry? I'm using Ripple. I've been trading real money in there, as I wanted to understand it. I sent REAL BTC to Bitstamp, and they sent me BTC IOU's to Ripple. Yeah, my BTC never left the Bitstamp BTC address - they are holding them, and they sent BTC IOU's to Ripple, but they can actually do whatever they want with my BTC. They can spend them, and I would still have the BTC IOU's on Ripple. Then, Bitstamp can decide if they honor or not the IOU's they sent to my Ripple address.

Yeah: welcome to fractional reserve, welcome to creating money out of thin air.

After receiving my BTC IOU's from Bitstamp, I exchanged them for USD IOU's - and then exchanged the USD IOU's for Ripples.

The only asset you hold in Ripple are Ripples. The rest, is debt (IOU's), which issuer can decide to honor or not.

The question is do you trust your gateway or not?  What's stopping you from sending your BTC's back to your wallet?  Nothing...just send the IOU's back first.  I've been using it too and it works just fine for me.  I can sell BTC's in the Ripple client, send the fiat to Bitstamp, buy more BTC.  Imagine when Gox comes on board, you won't have the spreads across different exchanges because you can immediately exploit the differences because you can move fiat or BTC, wherever you choose, for next to nothing.  

Without Ripple, if you're trading on Gox, you trust Gox with your fiat and BTC, right?  How is that any different?  Gox doesn't have to pay you.  They can run away with your money at anytime they want, so your argument is ridiculous.

[MAbtc]

It's the third time I tell you, Coinseeker: you do not understand Bitcoin. You do not understand its deep revolutionary implications. Bitcoin is meant to set you free, while Ripple is meant for their creators to be rich.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."

[Rampion]

I have to say that after being at the conference, talking with the Ripple guys (who did a really valient job of trying to explain to everyone how it works) I still don't understand how it works. To my credit, most people at the conference said they don't understand it. Including some of the core bitcoin dev's and a number of other talented programmers in the bitcoin world. Indeed, no one I spoke to said they really understood how it work.

 So, to quote one guy at the conference: "It should make you nervous that you don't understand it".

That's my position on it for now. Speculatively it looks interesting, but the fact that I don't understand it, and guys much smarter and more experienced then myself don't understand it, makes me skeptical of it's future.

Man, I now understand it very well. It's a reproduction of the old banking system. If you are trusted (in Ripple, you are a Gateway), you issue IOU's: if you issue IOU's which are not backed by real assets... Well, that's how it is in debt-based systems. You just incur in more debt to cover the holes, and if you don't, you default.

Example:

1) You deposit BTC to Bitstamp (the only "official" Gateway ATM)
2) You grant trust to Bitstamp inside Ripple
3) You "send" your BTC from Bitstamp to your Ripple account: your BTC never leave Bitstamp, they just send a "piece of paper" (IOU) saying that they owe you 10BTC
4) You can trade those IOUs inside Ripple, you can pay for goods, etc.

I hope you grasp the very negative incentives that Bitstamp could have - again, they are virtually able to create money from thin air. They could "lend" you money they don't have against a commission (as the fucking banks we want to get rid of do). This is what TradeFortress is doing - people gave him "trusted" status, so he can virtually create money (455 BTC up to date) - because inside Ripple you just trade IOU's - the only thing is not a IOU are Ripples.

Fucked up system if you ask me. We already have a bank system. And we want to get rid of it.

[Pale Phoenix]

This is a true statement.  Pure speculation is driving XRP prices.  There is no justification for it other than greed.

And there's no justification for greed... except for human nature, so is that a design flaw? Could people be bidding XRP up because Ripple itself is difficult to understand?

Anyway, I believe I understand it, and I am unmoved by the anti Ripple arguments based on ideology or pre-mining, but I think it is even harder to explain to consumers than Bitcoin.

Coinseeker, can you summarize why you believe Ripple is iTunes in your analogy? IMO, iTunes was successful because it made it dead SIMPLE to purchase digital music at fair prices, not to mention it was tied to an incredibly well designed piece of hardware, and backed by a monstrous ad campaign. If you agree, how exactly does Ripple change the game like iTunes did?

I'm genuinely curious as I have no dog in the fight (never mined anything), and while I believe in Bitcoin, I'm certainly no fundamentalist.

[crumbcake]

...
Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone but a gateway.  

^^

[Coinseeker]

It's the third time I tell you, Coinseeker: you do not understand Bitcoin. You do not understand its deep revolutionary implications. Bitcoin is meant to set you free, while Ripple is meant for their creators to be rich.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."

Maybe if you actually went after those who were talking this nonsense to begin with, I'd listen to you.  But you've proven your bias against me personally so...

NO!

[MAbtc]

It's the third time I tell you, Coinseeker: you do not understand Bitcoin. You do not understand its deep revolutionary implications. Bitcoin is meant to set you free, while Ripple is meant for their creators to be rich.

Can you bring this sort of crap over to the bitcoin discussion forum or alternative crypto...or something? If you're going to get on a soapbox here, make it about why your speculative analysis is right... not why we should "believe in bitcoin."

Maybe if you actually went after those who were talking this nonsense to begin with, I'd listen to you.  But you've proven your bias against me personally so...

NO!

wat 

:facepalm: