Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[vroom]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

the unskilled/uneducated people will lose their jobs first. they can not become designers, programmers and builders.

[realr0ach]

and right now is best used as a digital store of value

No, bitcoin is not "a store of value", no more than dogecoin or airline miles are a "store of value".  At the end of the day, the only type of endgame anyone wants from a monetary instrument is to receive a physical good or service for it.  This is why commodity currencies are the only real form of money, because they are not IOUs, and thus have no counterparty risk.  Just like fiat paper, bitcoin is nothing more than a debt instrument or IOU because it cannot actually be used for anything.  You are hoping to trick someone into giving you something of use for your something of no use.  One could even argue bitcoin is worse than fiat since even if the value of paper money goes to zero, you can at least set it on fire to keep yourself warm.

The bitcoin forum is plagued with people who have no understanding of money, and scammers who just flat out lie about what the difference in money and currency is.  Bitcoin is not money.  Although not debt issued like USD, it's just another debt instrument currency.

Okay, everything you said is correct (except for that image) but you're moving the goalposts here by re-defining what "money" means. It is true that gold and silver have intrinsic value but it's also true that collective delusion creates "money". In your opinion it would be more accurately called an IOU but most people call it money because money is usually defined as the most efficient way to trade things without bartering. You certainly can't pay for a hamburger with silver but you might be able to buy lunch with Bitcoin or another crypto-currency soon. I already pay for my servers using Bitcoin.

If it's not possible to buy a hamburger with silver, I wonder how people did exactly that for oh...thousands of years.

Maybe you're right and it would be better in a hypothetical universe if we used silver or gold as a transactional unit. How would online purchases work in that case? Bitcoin is the only way to trade value using a decentralized network.

You're making a false comparison.  It's not possible to create a decentralized cryptocurrency, so bitcoin was never an alternative to metals in the first place.  Cryptocurrency either starts completely centralized from day one in the case of most proof of stake coins, or they just centralize more by the day in the case of proof of work.  Anyone who has been around in bitcoin for years can see that.  In the past people claimed "oh, commodification of ASICs will solve everything!", but that turned out to be completely wrong.

Long ago, people always mentioned the talking point concerning miners:  "Why would anyone sell a money printing machine?".  The answer is, they wouldn't.  Selling shovels in California to gold miners is not a money printing machine; they are printing with their arms, not the shovel.  A bitcoin miner you just plug in.  There is no incentive for commodification of ASICs to exist.  The monopolization of ASIC production will generally always be a weapon used against the general public in some form or another.  

The only reason an ASIC monopoly man would want to sell you an ASIC for a reasonable price is if he cornered the bitcoin market first and wants you to help him create a better buffer for his pump and dump.  But of course, once he starts to sell to realize some gains on his pump and dump, you're back to square one again of ASICs always being used as a weapon and holding the bag with an unprofitable ASIC.

[realsteelboy]

Has anyone had issues logging into blockchain?

[HanvanBitcoin]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

the unskilled/uneducated people will lose their jobs first. they can not become designers, programmers and builders.

Well imagine if you where unskilled/uneducated but wearing a pair of googleglasses that would tell you exactly step by step how to operate a verry complex machine? Everything is possible with technology......

Without automation our food, clothes ect. would all become more and more expensive. We woudn't even be able to feed everyon on this world without it actually..... Its a MUST if we want to survive with this many people on this planet.

[ErisDiscordia]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

The point of automation is not to improve your job or create a new one. It is to make your job obsolete. This is only a problem, because in the current system one has to have a job in order to get money and survive (unless you already are rich and can let your money work for you). In any sane system we would cheer unemployment.

[Meuh6879]

Summary of all exchanges ... overheaded by news users.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-07/bitcoin-blasts-through-15000

bonus :

Paul – who earlier this year called for the U.S. government to "stay out" of bitcoin – put the question to his more than 650,000 followers, asking if they would take $10,000 in the form of bitcoin, dollars, gold or 10-year U.S. Treasury Bonds.

The result thus far – one hour remains in the poll at press time – indicate that of the more than 70,000 responses, 54 percent expressed support for bitcoin.

[infofront]

Do you guys think I should redo the poll, or let it stand?

P.S.
Prices on the Korean exchanges are approaching $20,000.

[Ibian]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

The people who take care of the elders are called "children". And we haven't had enough of them for the past 30 years.

It could easily be argued that the pension old people get should be proportional to the number of kids they sired, and possibly grandkids as well. If we have to have a socialist state, that is.

[criptix]

Do you guys think I should redo the poll, or let it stand?

P.S.
Prices on the Korean exchanges are approaching $20,000.

just do weekly/4 day polls please.

we are trying to go parabolic right now...

[criptix]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

The people who take care of the elders are called "children". And we haven't had enough of them for the past 30 years.

It could easily be argued that the pension old people get should be proportional to the number of kids they sired, and possibly grandkids as well. If we have to have a socialist state, that is.

but then we have sub saharan population problems everywhere

[arklan]

Do you guys think I should redo the poll, or let it stand?

P.S.
Prices on the Korean exchanges are approaching $20,000.

just do weekly/4 day polls please.

we are trying to go parabolic right now...

trying? THIS is trying? i think we got there.

[fabiorem]

There has never been a crash that preserved more than 50% of the past ATH.

The user support is around 8k, and miner support is around 5k.

5k is nearly 1/3 of current price. This would be a massive crash already.

Next time dont go short, go long.

[criptix]

Do you guys think I should redo the poll, or let it stand?

P.S.
Prices on the Korean exchanges are approaching $20,000.

just do weekly/4 day polls please.

we are trying to go parabolic right now...

trying? THIS is trying? i think we got there.

i just hope it holds more then 1 day 

[Ibian]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

The people who take care of the elders are called "children". And we haven't had enough of them for the past 30 years.

It could easily be argued that the pension old people get should be proportional to the number of kids they sired, and possibly grandkids as well. If we have to have a socialist state, that is.

but then we have sub saharan population problems everywhere

No, we have sophists like you unable to make a living. And therefore dying. Thus making the world a better place.

[lightfoot]

And I saw 17k this afternoon in a meeting and thought "I could just start touching myself here..." Then it went down to 16k and doom filled my heart....

[criptix]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

The people who take care of the elders are called "children". And we haven't had enough of them for the past 30 years.

It could easily be argued that the pension old people get should be proportional to the number of kids they sired, and possibly grandkids as well. If we have to have a socialist state, that is.

but then we have sub saharan population problems everywhere

No, we have sophists like you unable to make a living. And therefore dying. Thus making the world a better place.

PC alarm 

[Nikolaj06]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

the unskilled/uneducated people will lose their jobs first. they can not become designers, programmers and builders.

Well imagine if you where unskilled/uneducated but wearing a pair of googleglasses that would tell you exactly step by step how to operate a verry complex machine? Everything is possible with technology......

Without automation our food, clothes ect. would all become more and more expensive. We woudn't even be able to feed everyon on this world without it actually..... Its a MUST if we want to survive with this many people on this planet.

No one here is opposed automation I imagine.. Yes it is for sure needed to keep our standard of living.
I however do not believe that there will be enough jobs for everyone to work the long hours we do now. So things need to change if automation cause the major disruption it's predicted to do.

Either unemployment skyrockets, in the worst case causing extreme poverty and eventually riots/revolution. Or everyone agrees to lower weekly working hours and shares the income like that (which also means that wages for sure need to go up). Or some sort of UBI is implemented, so no one if forced into poverty.

This is of course some ways away, but I certainly cannot see many new jobs coming, like it's happened the past 200 years. There's quite a few good videos on youtube explaining exactly why that is

[Mythase]

WHAT AN INSANE DAY!

[realr0ach]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

the unskilled/uneducated people will lose their jobs first. they can not become designers, programmers and builders.

None of you have addressed the real talking points behind the issue.  The real points to be addressed are:

1)  Declining returns of increased complexity and specialization

2)  The fact the human brain is not elastic and can't just adapt to infinite complexity

One can make the argument that high complexity exerted onto the finite system of the human brain is just a synonym for the word "stress".  This is why lots of mathematicians go insane.  Some brains are better able to handle complexity than others, but there's a relative hard limit here, and the entire population cannot and will not just shift into permanent, exponential complexity.  It would take a minimum of something like a hundred thousand to a million years to evolve into it, if even possible due to physical structural limits (extrapolated from the cognitive difference in Europeans and Africans and the 50,000-100,000 years of genetic isolation between the two).

The other issue is that there are no returns to be had by increasing complexity.  For example, the Joseph Tainter comparison about the US defense budget, where it requires x% of the budget to create an airplane one year, with that percentage increasing every single year until it requires leveraging the knowledge and capital of the entire population to create one airplane.  There's just no benefit to be had.  All you do by increasing complexity past a certain point is overspecializing where if a shortage pops up in one sector to keep the machine running, the entire civilization collapses into a dark ages.  This is probably why cyclical dark ages are inevitable, to correct overspecialization.

The day you try to force everyone to "become a programmer or designer", you will have another dark ages the day afterwards.

[Ibian]

What gets me is we all know automation is coming, but so few people put any effort at all into figuring out how it works and how they could improve their jobs and wages with it.

many people will lose their jobs because of automation and that will be a big problem.

Not entirely true. Automation also creates loads of jobs. It requires technical innovation, designers, programmers, builders ect.. Why would we 'humans' perform hard labor if we can program and build machines to do it for us? We need to keep evolving  

I'd rather have more machines do labor for us so others can focus on taking care of our elder people or other stuff that matters more.

The people who take care of the elders are called "children". And we haven't had enough of them for the past 30 years.

It could easily be argued that the pension old people get should be proportional to the number of kids they sired, and possibly grandkids as well. If we have to have a socialist state, that is.

but then we have sub saharan population problems everywhere

No, we have sophists like you unable to make a living. And therefore dying. Thus making the world a better place.

PC alarm 

Yep. Death is coming, in whatever cloak. Maybe in a year, or five, or twenty. But in our lifetime. It is what it is.