Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[savetherainforest]

who destroyed the poll with forbidden input?

Dunno man, you guys keep this argue of what price is what in how many shells, oysters, crayons, peanut butter slices... The fact is simple 1 million dogecoin is 1 million dogecoin.

The same goes for: 1 Bitcoin is worth 1 Bitcoin. Does it look like the banks will sell back the coins?? Answer: "NO!" ... they will just keep it and lend it to the n00bs as interest and they will keep on rolling trough their own digital currency that is endless and they say that they can do that because everything is backed-up by BTCiTcorn and they can't go bankrupt.    

[1714939692]

1714939692

[d_eddie]

How about elaborating on that a little more, somac.?   ELI5...

Ways to make an income from your current stash:

1. Lend your coins. celsius.network etc
2. Sell BTC futures
3. Sell BTC covered calls

Take your pick on which works best. And yes for some of those things you may have to deliver but, you are in it for the income, just buy the BTC back, even if it is at a higher a price, rinse and repeat.

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

1. Lending makes me very nervous. The counterparty risk won't let me sleep easily. My precioussss!! The good side is, it is unlike selling because you don't forfait your btc, but cash in interest - that's how it works, right?

2. Sell futures for cash seems a little more acceptable. It is tantamount to selling, though.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

[somac.]

How about elaborating on that a little more, somac.?   ELI5...

Ways to make an income from your current stash:

1. Lend your coins. celsius.network etc

Isnt this also a good way to lose your coins.?
Do we really need income from btc, which already did like thousands per cent in the last months?
This extra income comes with a risky.  Personally,  I am afraid of all those exchanges and defi

I think keeping your coins safe in cold storage is top priority now, at least for me.

Remember the aim here is genearating an income so you don't have to sell a large part of capital to fund your lifestyle. Yes you may have to deliver your coins if contract gets exercised, but you then have the option to buy back in (maybe at a higher price, or maybe it dips and you get a lower price) and repeat the process. You may have slightly less BTC, but you can still sell calls on that. If you are concerned about being exercised, go for higher strike prices.

There is counterparty risk with the exchanges, but in 2021 there is fair less risk then back several years ago. One way to reduce this risk is by not keeping a full BTC on exchange when selling the contract, you can keep half or less than half, but that does open you up to margin call risk. Cold storage is definitely best, I'm just saying this is an alternative, other then selling, for people who now have enough net worth in BTC.

[somac.]

How about elaborating on that a little more, somac.?   ELI5...

Ways to make an income from your current stash:

1. Lend your coins. celsius.network etc
2. Sell BTC futures
3. Sell BTC covered calls

Take your pick on which works best. And yes for some of those things you may have to deliver but, you are in it for the income, just buy the BTC back, even if it is at a higher a price, rinse and repeat.

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

1. Lending makes me very nervous. The counterparty risk won't let me sleep easily. My precioussss!! The good side is, it is unlike selling because you don't forfait your btc, but cash in interest - that's how it works, right?

2. Sell futures for cash seems a little more acceptable. It is tantamount to selling, though.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

You are correct. Deribit and FTX, are 2 places that I know off the top of my head. And you don't have to always post a full BTC as collateral, you can use margin, but then run risk of margin call.

There is of course the risk of a big price move in one month meaning you will miss out on a lot of capital appreciation.

[LFC_Bitcoin]

https://twitter.com/scottmelker/status/1363263201673158656?s=21

[d_eddie]

Hero status fully deserved, somac.

[somac.]

Hero status fully deserved, somac.

Ha, I didn't notice. Thank you everyone and in particular The Dude.

[Elwar]

I was given a few options on twitter for places where you can get loans of fiat for BTC collateral.

Closest I've seen is Hodl Hodl saying they would lend stablecoins and "Blockfi gives usd loans using btc as collateral".

Both things I will look into when going to buy property.

[UnDerDoG81]

These people who sell are always a step ahead. After 8 years of hodling I was ready to sell my first small amount BTC (not the one I bought Oct 2020) at $59444. And they knew many people will sell at 59k ish so they started the sell off at 57k   Now I will rethink if I sell below $99k  

How about don't sell at all. At these price levels, there are ways to make an income of 10s of thousands USD a month on your exsisting stash without selling. This applies to stashes under 10 BTC too. Life is good at these levels.

That shock from the 2017/18 bull run dump still sits very deep. Even though the 2013/14 dump was bad as well, 2017/18 was a real shock. Taking profits in case of a surprising dump is not bad. I know we will pass 100k. But I believe we will see a bigger dump before we pass 60k. If 2013 cycle repeats the real run will be in the end of the year. And between March until end of summer it could be bearish. At the end, we are all just speculating. Some are good at it and some not.

Edit: I am also curious about that income you talking about.

I honestly understand, especially if you need money to buy a home or other need. My point really is that you shouldn't sell to buy a lambo or any stupid shit like that.

How about elaborating on that a little more, somac.?   ELI5...

Ways to make an income from your current stash:

1. Lend your coins. celsius.network etc
2. Sell BTC futures
3. Sell BTC covered calls

Take your pick on which works best. And yes for some of those things you may have to deliver but, you are in it for the income, just buy the BTC back, even if it is at a higher a price, rinse and repeat.

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

No I dont want to buy anything. Just want to reinvest since I am 100% invested in BTC. Only dont know in what to invest yet. My dream would be a passive income of $10k a month after taxes. I could live a great life with that amount in most countries I visit. No need for Lambos, Yachts and "stupid" things like that wich wont bring me any return besides 1 month of fun. Things get boring very fast. No matter how expensive they are. Yes, a cheaper 718 Porsche would be my dream. But I would get it 2nd hand and only if Bitcoin would hit 6 digits. And even then I would probably not buy one.

Currently I am running couple affiliate based websites and making about 3-4k a month. I can live with that. But its a highly risky business since Google pushes big websites on the front pages more and more and we small fishes fight to survive. So sooner or later I will run out of monthly income. Have to find some investments that deliver me a monthly passive income.

Edit: Tried to explain with this why I plan on selling small part of my BTC. So in case Bitcoin really fails, I would have something on the side. Yes, it will not fail. But what if something unexpected happens and we all watch it drop just like in 2017/18.

[Tweak25]

How about elaborating on that a little more, somac.?   ELI5...

Ways to make an income from your current stash:

1. Lend your coins. celsius.network etc
2. Sell BTC futures
3. Sell BTC covered calls

Take your pick on which works best. And yes for some of those things you may have to deliver but, you are in it for the income, just buy the BTC back, even if it is at a higher a price, rinse and repeat.

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

1. Lending makes me very nervous. The counterparty risk won't let me sleep easily. My precioussss!! The good side is, it is unlike selling because you don't forfait your btc, but cash in interest - that's how it works, right?

2. Sell futures for cash seems a little more acceptable. It is tantamount to selling, though.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

You are correct. Deribit and FTX, are 2 places that I know off the top of my head. And you don't have to always post a full BTC as collateral, you can use margin, but then run risk of margin call.

There is of course the risk of a big price move in one month meaning you will miss out on a lot of capital appreciation.

Any guesses on how long it is until there's something close to an FDIC insured account that'll generate some interest?

All those options exceed my risk tolerance, but I am all about the never having to cash out / live off the interest lifestyle, if it can be swung.

[somac.]

How about elaborating on that a little more, somac.?   ELI5...

Ways to make an income from your current stash:

1. Lend your coins. celsius.network etc
2. Sell BTC futures
3. Sell BTC covered calls

Take your pick on which works best. And yes for some of those things you may have to deliver but, you are in it for the income, just buy the BTC back, even if it is at a higher a price, rinse and repeat.

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

1. Lending makes me very nervous. The counterparty risk won't let me sleep easily. My precioussss!! The good side is, it is unlike selling because you don't forfait your btc, but cash in interest - that's how it works, right?

2. Sell futures for cash seems a little more acceptable. It is tantamount to selling, though.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

You are correct. Deribit and FTX, are 2 places that I know off the top of my head. And you don't have to always post a full BTC as collateral, you can use margin, but then run risk of margin call.

There is of course the risk of a big price move in one month meaning you will miss out on a lot of capital appreciation.

Any guesses on how long it is until there's something close to an FDIC insured account that'll generate some interest?

All those options exceed my risk tolerance, but I am all about the never having to cash out / live off the interest lifestyle, if it can be swung.

No idea, but maybe in 4 years time BTC will be so highly valued that these options become doable for you.

[somac.]

I was given a few options on twitter for places where you can get loans of fiat for BTC collateral.

Closest I've seen is Hodl Hodl saying they would lend stablecoins and "Blockfi gives usd loans using btc as collateral".

Both things I will look into when going to buy property.

Yeah that is another way to do things. Taxes are lower on loans too, interest rates vs whatever capital/income taxes are in your location.

The loan will also be insignificant after another 4 years of BTC price rises.

[rdbase]

who destroyed the poll with forbidden input?

Dunno man, you guys keep this argue of what price is what in how many shells, oysters, crayons, peanut butter slices... The fact is simple 1 million dogecoin is 1 million dogecoin.

The same goes for: 1 Bitcoin is worth 1 Bitcoin. Does it look like the banks will sell back the coins?? Answer: "NO!" ... they will just keep it and lend it to the n00bs as interest and they will keep on rolling trough their own digital currency that is endless and they say that they can do that because everything is backed-up by BTCiTcorn and they can't go bankrupt.

But you can't compare dogecoin to bitcoin.
That is just like arguing with elon that dogecoin is not bitcoin but just a coin created by someone who was bored one day and just did it for the sh*t and giggles in their basement.

The first interview on a major news network with the creator of Dogecoin back at the beginning of 2018 said it all just a joke.

https://youtu.be/Nuajz3DnEGQ

[savetherainforest]

who destroyed the poll with forbidden input?

Dunno man, you guys keep this argue of what price is what in how many shells, oysters, crayons, peanut butter slices... The fact is simple 1 million dogecoin is 1 million dogecoin.

The same goes for: 1 Bitcoin is worth 1 Bitcoin. Does it look like the banks will sell back the coins?? Answer: "NO!" ... they will just keep it and lend it to the n00bs as interest and they will keep on rolling trough their own digital currency that is endless and they say that they can do that because everything is backed-up by BTCiTcorn and they can't go bankrupt.

But you can't compare dogecoin to bitcoin.
That is just like arguing with elon that dogecoin is not bitcoin but just a coin created by someone who was bored one day and just did it for the sh*t and giggles in their basement.

The first interview on a major news network with the creator of Dogecoin back at the beginning of 2018 said it all just a joke.

https://youtu.be/Nuajz3DnEGQ

Has a bigger cult. Its all about the cult memember numbers.
Its worthless if price is too high. It only matters if people believe in using it.    

[d_eddie]

3. Sell BTC covered calls

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

You are correct. Deribit and FTX, are 2 places that I know off the top of my head. And you don't have to always post a full BTC as collateral, you can use margin, but then run risk of margin call.

There is of course the risk of a big price move in one month meaning you will miss out on a lot of capital appreciation.

Of course: a little like selling too early. But you do get advance money in return, after all. No free lunch and all that. I'm going to check the exchanges you suggested to get a feel for the premiums.

[sirazimuth]

Fun Fact..... If /when Bitcoin@ $57,042.0420420420.....A Tesla Model 3 (@$37,990) costs .666 Bitcoin.

Hey Elon...put that in your pipe and smoke it.....

Oh ffs!... it dropped below 56K...bitcoin is dead ...

[Biodom]

3. Sell BTC covered calls

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

You are correct. Deribit and FTX, are 2 places that I know off the top of my head. And you don't have to always post a full BTC as collateral, you can use margin, but then run risk of margin call.

There is of course the risk of a big price move in one month meaning you will miss out on a lot of capital appreciation.

Of course: a little like selling too early. But you do get advance money in return, after all. No free lunch and all that. I'm going to check the exchanges you suggested to get a feel for the premiums.

something like that.
You can sell 75K bitcoin calls, collect premium.
Then, if btc is lower than 75K at expiration, you keep BOTH your premium cash and your bitcoin, rinse and repeat.
If it is higher that 75K, then somebody basically buys your bitcoin at exactly 75K (plus $ premium that you collected).
The best thing, it is european style options (at least on ledger X, which is US-based), so your bitcoin would not be yanked from under you in the interim.
Not so good-you need to qualify with above $5 mil to sell options at intermediate odd prices (like 57, etc.).
Anybody who gets approved for the regular account could sell at 25, 50, 75K, now probably 100K as well.
I was considering selling some calls when btc was at $42K, very happy so far that I didn't.
EDIT: I checked and Dec 2021 75K calls have ~16K premium while 100K calls ~11K. Wow.
You can sell Dec 31 2021 200K calls and collect 3.8K in premium (on the bid)-exactly the lowest price in 2020.
The worst case scenario-you would sell at 200K plus 3.8K premium.
Lazer eyes.

[somac.]

3. Sell BTC covered calls

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

You are correct. Deribit and FTX, are 2 places that I know off the top of my head. And you don't have to always post a full BTC as collateral, you can use margin, but then run risk of margin call.

There is of course the risk of a big price move in one month meaning you will miss out on a lot of capital appreciation.

Of course: a little like selling too early. But you do get advance money in return, after all. No free lunch and all that. I'm going to check the exchanges you suggested to get a feel for the premiums.

Good luck with it.

[d_eddie]

3. Sell BTC covered calls

Hint: covered calls are a great way to sell you BTC, rather than the traditional sell at certain price point on normal exchange.

3. I like this. I imagine it is something like this: sell covered calls by posting btc collateral, and actually sell the btc at the strike price on expiry. Do you have any idea where that is possible?

You are correct. Deribit and FTX, are 2 places that I know off the top of my head. And you don't have to always post a full BTC as collateral, you can use margin, but then run risk of margin call.

There is of course the risk of a big price move in one month meaning you will miss out on a lot of capital appreciation.

Of course: a little like selling too early. But you do get advance money in return, after all. No free lunch and all that. I'm going to check the exchanges you suggested to get a feel for the premiums.

something like that.
You can sell 75K bitcoin calls, collect premium.
Then, if btc is lower than 75K at expiration, you keep BOTH your premium cash and your bitcoin, rinse and repeat.
If it is higher that 75K, then somebody basically buys your bitcoin at exactly 75K (plus $ premium that you collected).
The best thing, it is european style options (at least on ledger X, which is US-based), so your bitcoin would not be yanked from under you in the interim.
Not so good-you need to qualify with above $5 mil to sell options at intermediate odd prices (like 57, etc.).
Anybody who gets approved for the regular account could sell at 25, 50, 75K, now probably 100K as well.
I was considering selling some calls when btc was at $42K, very happy so far that I didn't.
EDIT: I checked and Dec 2021 75K calls have ~16K premium while 100K calls ~11K. Wow.
You can sell Dec 31 2021 200K calls and collect 3.8K in premium (on the bid)-exactly the lowest price in 2020.
The worst case scenario-you would sell at 200K plus 3.8K premium.
Lazer eyes.

Great post, Biodom. You're informative as usual. Thank you!

BTW @somac., I've checked FTX and they only seem to deal in futures - not options. Or maybe I have to sign up to see that?

[smartcomet]

3535 $BTC has been bought yesterday by Canada Purpose Bitcoin ETF, the world's first #Bitcoin ETF.
Total: 6036.7 BTC

https://www.purposeinvest.com/funds/purpose-bitcoin-etf
AUM: 421.8M