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Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
7/14 - 0 (0%)
7/21 - 1 (0.8%)
7/28 - 11 (8.9%)
8/4 - 16 (12.9%)
8/11 - 8 (6.5%)
8/18 - 6 (4.8%)
8/25 - 8 (6.5%)
After August - 74 (59.7%)
Total Voters: 124

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26490191 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
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June 20, 2021, 01:16:33 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1), Paashaas (1)

Chinese miners crackdown, energy FUD, Goldman Sachs shorting, stock market tanking and dragging Bitcoin down with it.

Crazy how sentiment IN THE MEDIA changed so quickly.

All by design and on purpose. Happens after every momentum trade and bubble burst.

Every. Single. Time.

It's easy for the whales to massively short, what they themselves massively pumped in the first place. They have controlled the float all along.

They are just selling back to the themselves, dumping into their own walls, in the hopes that some n00bs will buy into the negative sentiment, sell and take a loss.

Blame the exchanges that are willing to give them the ridiculous leverage.

In the long run it doesn't matter. We all know where it's going.
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June 20, 2021, 01:25:32 PM

...

This leads me to a projection. The projection is mainly based on the idea of averages. The averages can tell us where Bitcoin is on a binary scale: overvalued or undervalued. Assuming that Bitcoin's true value is still increasing, investing in Bitcoin is still a good choice on the long term. But timing your entry right can mean the difference between a big win and a massive win.

The idea of the chart is that big bottoms in a cycle occur in an area far below the purple line. The purple line (in the 3Day chart) is currently at $20,000.

We have seen that the Bitcoin markets have plenty of speculative money in them + derivative trading. What goes up big time, can also go down big time. Especially in times of fear.

The assumption underlying the chart is that the current financial markets move along until something breaks. That's how it usually goes. A bank going bust, a large company is marked junk. It could be anything that suddenly breaks the markets. Stonks slide, yields go down and everything is sold in order to obtain cold hard cash.

The FED and other CBs step in and 'save the day' by printing even more money. After the panic subsides, market participants jump back in with both hands on the waves of yet another Great Reflation.

I take this as the default scenario.

The chart is essentially about extending the moving averages based on the 2018-2019 bear market (copy/paste). Extend and duration will probably not match the future; it's just an 'what if' exploration. For instance, the March 2020 panic will probably remain an outlier.

The chart gives me confidence:

  • even in a major downturn - a Bitcoin bear market and/or the GFC 202x occurring - price is not expected go lower than approx 50% from here
  • with nothing fundamentally changed to the long term Bitcoin growth drivers, buying a bit at this price point is fine
  • this is the worst case scenario for me. Working through this period will probably take less time


I have come to the same conclusion.  But arrived at it using mining data.

Best miner does about 30 watts a th

so a th earns 22 cents

lets say I have 100 of them

100 x .22 = 22 dollars a day

30 watts x 100 = 3000 or 3 kwatts or 72 kwatts a day


at 5 cents =  3.60


22.00- 3.60 = 18.4   that is  0.000555 btc


or 1/0.000555  = a factor of  1801.80

1 = 1 btc

to earn 1 btc a day
 
1801 x 3.60 = 6483 in power  

while it seems way under the 15000 number for the low it neglects costs of your building your internet your wiring and your miners

A s19 went for 6000 at Bitmain it has a 2-3  year life on average so it cost 8.22 a day to own it. use 8.22 x 1801 you get 14,804

so 14,804 + 6483 = 21,287  which is well over 15k

but s19 also went for 3000 at bitmain
that means 4.21 a day to own

or 7,402 + 6483 = 13885 which is under 15k

the cost of the s19 is base on 2 year not 3 year.

I get 21,287+13885 = 35172/2 = 17586 fairly close to his 15k number.

I do suspect the life span to be over 2 and under 3 years. which means that 17586 is a bit high but not off by much remarkable that it is so close to his 15k number.  Since the way to get the number is very different.


So basically for mining a btc I get true cost close to 15-18k .

I mentioned earlier that this is different than 2018 here is why.

2017 12/31 diff = 2.60th
2018 01/31 diff = 3.01th
2018 02/28 diff = 3.46th
2018 03/31 diff = 4.02th
2018 04/30 diff = 4.31th
2018 05/31 diff = 5.08th
2018 06/30 diff = 5.95th
2018 07/31 diff = 6.73th
2018 08/31 diff = 7.15th
2018 09/30 diff = 7.45th.

2018 10/30 diff = 7.18th

so with faltering prices the diff rose 9 months in a row

that is not true right now.  

and this means it is different this time

"fact not conjecture"

Just not sure what will happen. Due to this fundamental difference in mining profit.
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June 20, 2021, 01:33:57 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

MSM Narrative:

"China imposing bitcoin mining crackdown, forcing large miners to shut down"


Reality:


"China insiders subsidizing large miners to temporarily turn off hash power. Will tell them to resume when insider whales have scooped up enough cheap coins."


AKA I'm not buying into this "China miner crackdown FUD BS" for an instant.  Grin
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June 20, 2021, 01:37:02 PM
Merited by El duderino_ (2), Hhampuz (1), modrobert (1)

Imagine selling now if you didn't at $60k  Cheesy
imagine buying now and selling at $160k

or

imagine buying at $160k if you didn't at $60k Cool
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June 20, 2021, 01:43:28 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

MSM Narrative:

"China imposing bitcoin mining crackdown, forcing large miners to shut down"


Reality:


"China insiders subsidizing large miners to temporarily turn off hash power. Will tell them to resume when insider whales have scooped up enough cheap coins."


AKA I'm not buying into this "China miner crackdown FUD BS" for an instant.  Grin

Hmmmm interesting!

Wonder if the state is demanding bribes from big mining farms to continue operations. Once paid they’ll allow mining to continue. I suppose China don’t give a crap about energy use & the environment. Let’s face it, it’s them who dump most of the plastic into our oceans.

Just reading on Twitter that one of the most overcrowded trades in finance right now is shorting bitcoin. When a trade is too obvious & seemingly too easy to make money it’s getting rugged time.
Hopefully there’s a massive short squeeze & all the tards get liquidated.
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June 20, 2021, 01:49:45 PM
Last edit: June 20, 2021, 09:08:30 PM by modrobert
Merited by LoyceV (30), JayJuanGee (1), Paashaas (1)

I have sent an email to the "Wallet of Satoshi" support asking if there's a way to get "permanent receive address" which can take more than one payment, and also how long these Lightning addresses last. Waiting for reply.

Not directly. But there are additional services that enable very similar functionality such as lnurl-pay. One example: https://lnbits.com/lnurlp/48, "The link or QR code is fixed, but each time it is read by a compatible wallet a new QR code is issued by the service."

Thanks for the tip, tried it out.

I created a wallet at https://lnbits.com which requires no registration, just need to enter a name for a wallet to create it at top of page. The wallet security (once added) seems to be lacking regarding losing your wallet (due to browser crash or similar), so I suggest to copy and paste the wallet keys seen under "API info" along with the full browser URL (with 'usr' and 'wal' parts) somewhere safe. The full browser URL is all you need to own the wallet, so be careful not sharing that. In my opinion, security doesn't really matter when it's about really small payments, any amount which is no problem to lose, remember to empty wallet often.

Next step is to click "Manage extensions", scroll down, and enable 'LNURLp' (there are several LNURL extensions, so make sure it's exactly this one), then select the extension and click on "NEW PAY LINK", fill out the data, select your wallet, uncheck fixed amount if you want "min" and "max" limits, enter description, there are more stuff you can add here if needed, and then add it with "CREATE PAY LINK".

In my test:

LNURL: LNURL1DP68GURN8GHJ7MRWVF5HGUEWVDHK6TMVDE6HYMRS9ASHQ6F0WCCJ7MRWW4EXCTENXGCQMT2JE 2

The "sharable link" is probably easier to deal with, get QR code there as well: https://lnbits.com/lnurlp/320

I scanned the QR code with "Wallet of Satoshi", the description you entered shows up, kind of cool.



Then a few seconds after sending, looked like this in lnbits wallet in the browser:



After this I tried to send 10 sats (wallet had 15 sats at that point) using a "PASTE REQUEST" from the lnbits wallet back to the "Wallet of Satoshi", it worked as long as the Lightning invoice created has a fixed amount.

EDIT:

Added the sharable link LNURL as "Website URL:" here in the forum profile, perhaps a nice addition to the merit system, when you want to throw sats at someones post as well.
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June 20, 2021, 01:50:29 PM
Merited by LFC_Bitcoin (2)

Wonder if the state is demanding bribes from big mining farms to continue operations. Once paid they’ll allow mining to continue. I suppose China don’t give a crap about energy use & the environment. Let’s face it, it’s them who dump most of the plastic into our oceans.

You guessed it.

China hasn't cared since Bitcoin mining started in the country back in 2012. So why would they suddenly wake up and care about it now?

Also I read somewhere recently that in China, hundreds of brand new coal-fired power plants go online every year. Hundreds.

They literally do no give a shit about being environmentally friendly. Like at all.

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June 20, 2021, 02:01:26 PM


Explanation
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June 20, 2021, 02:05:31 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

Central bank of Portugal has granted operating licenses to local cryptocurrency exchanges for the first time ever.

https://beincrypto.com/central-bank-of-portugal-grants-licenses-to-crypto-exchanges/
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June 20, 2021, 02:21:05 PM

Next Chartbuddy needs to be $36K

Define "needs to be"


First, a number of charts indicating the idea that the market is not in bear market territory (yet) but 'in between' bull and bear. Time will tell whether the coin flips to bear or remains in bull.
Fuck the charts.

We are in a bull market, for now..


So fuck the flipping of coins too.

In other words, we are in a bull market, until we are not.

In other words, we might be in a bear market tomorrow.. but we are not currently.  Go tell your mom on me.   Tongue Tongue Tongue


Will $35k prove a correction in a bull market or is it the precursor of a bear market?


Huh?  We got down to $30,066, so far.  this ($33,337) is like the third or so subsequent attempt to test $30,066 support.  

Regarding your question... We are still in a bull market... there is no such thing as a "precursor" to a bear market - unless we look at the matter after the fact, and then we can say:  "that was a precursor to a bear market," but right now, we are currently in a bull market.. (again, until we are not)


This is the big gamble at this point. The Great Decide.

Huh?  Not that big of a gamble.

If you are new to bitcoin, then you just start buying and you establish a position.

If you have been in bitcoin for a while, then you have to figure out your own situation in terms of whether you HODL right now.. or buy more or whatever...


Other than DCA strategies, I would not recommend a novice investor to take out a large position at this point.

Usually it is not good to take out a large position.  However, let's say for example if a newbie has $12k available right now to buy bitcoin and the same person has a cashflow that provides $6k over then next 6 months that could be invested in bitcoin, then what would you recommend?  Personally, I recommend the same thing as I always recommend.  Divide the $12k stash into three and buy $4k right away, and set the other 2/3 up for DCA and buying on dips.  With the other $6k of cashflow, that would likely get injected into DCA and buying on dips, so perhaps knowing that another $6k is coming in, then there might be a question about whether to go up to $6k (rather than $4k with the initial lump sum investing amount - that is $18k divided by 3 rather than $12k divided by 3).  

So?

What you gonna do?  Sit here and whine about whether we might be in a bear market or a bull market and question the matter and inadequately pee pare ur lil selfie for UPpity?  

Answer:  hell no.

You are going to create an individually tailored plan that hopefully makes sure that you are adequately prepared both psychologically and financially for either BTC price direction.

First, let the market tell us what the further direction will be (bull or bear).

Again:  hell no.  What you believe about the market is ONLY one part of the formula.. you better figure out some other shit first, including but not limited to your cash flow, other investments, view about bitcoin as compared to other investments, timeline, risk tolerance, and skills, time and ability to learn, plan, strategize and employ strategies, while tweaking from time to time based on information learned.




The 'in between' narrative is illustrated in the next few charts, taken from glassnode.

1. Mayer Multiple


The Mayer Multiple had a nice peak and went down. But it hasn't truly bottomed like in previous great bottoms. Not a true long term buy signal at this moment.

2. MVRV Ratio


MVRV ratio not giving a long term buy signal. It's in between.

3. NVT Price


NVT is signalling a bottom. However, please note that this chart only starts from July 2017 and, looking at the 2018 bear, a bottom signal may also be a precursor to an ensuing bear market. NVT cannot be used as a sole indicator on the Great Decide.

4. VWAP Ratio


VWAP in the 2017 bull run showed a nice jagged pattern within a defined band all the way to the top. In 2021, the band may of course be higher but the comparison with 2017 gives that indefinite feeling again. The Great Decide.

5. Price Models


Looking at the price models. touching the purple line was the big bottom in a cycle. The purple line stands at $10,xxx  Shocked But that would also be the theoretical line in the sand. Notice that true bear markets saw the blue line crossing the yellow line downwards. We are not there yet. It would take many months before this potential signal could alarm us of bear market trouble.

In short, no true signal from this chart (yet) other than painting potential min and max $$ prices.

6. Hypothetical projection - repeat 2018 bear



I will admit:  nice charts - including your quickie summary of each.

This leads me to a projection. The projection is mainly based on the idea of averages. The averages can tell us where Bitcoin is on a binary scale: overvalued or undervalued. Assuming that Bitcoin's true value is still increasing, investing in Bitcoin is still a good choice on the long term. But timing your entry right can mean the difference between a big win and a massive win.

Fuck that law of averages nonsense, Wekkel.  There is a need to appreciate the unique aspect angle of bitcoin including a likely scenario that we are in the midst of the largest transfers of wealth in history.

Another angle that should be accounted for when attempting to figure out how much weight to give to your various charts would be to account for the various currently valid BTC price prediction models of 1) stock to flow, 2) 4-year fractal and 3) exponential s-curve adoption based on metcalfe principles and networking effects.  Sure, you might end up coming to similar conclusions, but you still better be attempting to incorporate currently valid BTC price prediction models into your weighting of those various charts.


The idea of the chart is that big bottoms in a cycle occur in an area far below the purple line. The purple line (in the 3Day chart) is currently at $20,000.

We have seen that the Bitcoin markets have plenty of speculative money in them + derivative trading. What goes up big time, can also go down big time. Especially in times of fear.

The assumption underlying the chart is that the current financial markets move along until something breaks. That's how it usually goes. A bank going bust, a large company is marked junk. It could be anything that suddenly breaks the markets. Stonks slide, yields go down and everything is sold in order to obtain cold hard cash.

The FED and other CBs step in and 'save the day' by printing even more money. After the panic subsides, market participants jump back in with both hands on the waves of yet another Great Reflation.

I take this as the default scenario.

The chart is essentially about extending the moving averages based on the 2018-2019 bear market (copy/paste). Extend and duration will probably not match the future; it's just an 'what if' exploration. For instance, the March 2020 panic will probably remain an outlier.

The chart gives me confidence:

  • even in a major downturn - a Bitcoin bear market and/or the GFC 202x occurring - price is not expected go lower than approx 50% from here
  • with nothing fundamentally changed to the long term Bitcoin growth drivers, buying a bit at this price point is fine
  • this is the worst case scenario for me. Working through this period will probably take less time

This last section of your analysis is definitely fair...   So cannot really disagree with anything that you are saying in terms of the possibility of another 50% drop from here.. because surely that is possible, and surely less likely if we happen to be in a bull market, but still being in a bull market can come to an end.. so then we would no longer be in a bull market, and sure 50% from here is within reasonable reach (even if at the moment, as I type this responsive post, it seems to be a long shot).  

By the way, the 208-week moving average is currently just above $13k, so usually that 208-week moving average is not very reachable except for during bear markets or extreme short term BTC price spikes to the downside.  The 208-week moving average is continuing to move UPpity, but it is not moving as quickly UPpity while we are in this $30k to $40k price range as compared to when we were in the $50ks and $60ks...

In any event, sure we will see what happens in terms of short-to-medium BTC price direction.... so surely how many coins you have.. could be a definite starting out factor in terms of attempting to figure out  the extent to which to employ any lump summing into the way forward, and surely the devil could well be in the details.. about how much cash might currently be available and ongoing cashflows too along side with other personal factors  - which now I am just inclining (or should we say devolving?) towards repeating myself.   Embarrassed
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June 20, 2021, 02:42:25 PM

Well, happy fathers day, I guess.

I got my walking-around money out at 39k so not hurting too much at the moment. I should have got out more so I could buy back in, I suppose.
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June 20, 2021, 02:46:11 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

Well, happy fathers day, I guess.

I got my walking-around money out at 39k so not hurting too much at the moment. I should have got out more so I could buy back in, I suppose.
Just like I should have picked the winning lottery numbers 2 weeks after the draw  Grin
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June 20, 2021, 03:01:35 PM


Explanation
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June 20, 2021, 03:06:47 PM
Last edit: June 20, 2021, 03:26:09 PM by bitcoinPsycho

Next Chartbuddy needs to be $36K

Define "needs to be"




Having BTFD, for my short term gratification it "needs to be" uppity up
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June 20, 2021, 03:42:15 PM

Chinese miners crackdown, energy FUD, Goldman Sachs shorting, stock market tanking and dragging Bitcoin down with it.

Crazy how sentiment changed so quickly.

Is goldman shorting bitcoin?

around the U.S. open corn was dumped out of the market like sh*t. so some technical oriented guys gave up.

looks like more sideways now. rally is delayed because it seems they don't want to have the corn to expensive to still fill their pockets at least until end of August.

Proof: yesterday someone posted that but deleted it just afterwards. but Eagleeye was faster.  Grin

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/18/bitcoin-goldman-sachs-ramps-up-trading-in-partnership-with-mike-novogratz-galaxy-digital.html

I was the one who deleted it to spare negativity.

This sucks but we can't do nothing about it besides waiting for the rebound. Saw great indicators it wil happen but it has been postponed for now. Sad

I would go with the longer the sideways and delay, the higher the next ATH. If we turn bullish now, I am sure we be stuck at 60k again. Bitcoin has to become boring for some time. Hope is September to take momentum again. But would be even better to resume parabolic bull market next year. Have to wait another year for 1 BTC = 1 Aventador.
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June 20, 2021, 04:01:26 PM


Explanation
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what is this "brake pedal" you speak of?


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June 20, 2021, 04:50:09 PM

So basically for mining a btc I get true cost close to 15-18k .

I mentioned earlier that this is different than 2018 here is why.

2017 12/31 diff = 2.60th
2018 01/31 diff = 3.01th
2018 02/28 diff = 3.46th
2018 03/31 diff = 4.02th
2018 04/30 diff = 4.31th
2018 05/31 diff = 5.08th
2018 06/30 diff = 5.95th
2018 07/31 diff = 6.73th
2018 08/31 diff = 7.15th
2018 09/30 diff = 7.45th.

2018 10/30 diff = 7.18th

so with faltering prices the diff rose 9 months in a row

that is not true right now.  

and this means it is different this time

"fact not conjecture"

Just not sure what will happen. Due to this fundamental difference in mining profit.

the 2017 runup was pretty crazy, easily the craziest time ive seen in it as far as price only go up mode FOMO. perhaps miners ran more on momentum and hopium and tolerated losing profit or even mining at a slight loss for a time in hopes of it bouncing back fairly quickly. i mean how long can you hold out running on fumes i guess (i have done that and its occasionally paid off extremely well long term).

also was there any new gears shipping in that 2018 timeline? wondering if its harder to shut down a shiny new expensive asic than an older one even if they both lose money lol. but man i would hate to completely turn off some expensive latest model gears. but logically you should just shut down, sunk cost be damned i suppose.
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June 20, 2021, 05:01:26 PM


Explanation
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June 20, 2021, 05:29:25 PM

So, weekend dump for ants? More cheap coins to MS.

Its kind of amzing really, every weekend has a dump. Might just be for ants, but a dump none the less.

Also, haven't heard if MS have bought yet, I wonder if they are entering slower this time and perhaps closer to the lows.

I only know I went out for a morning swim… when getting back inside checked the price and saw 1k lower sigh ….

Would hate to pay cheap corn tomo and hate it more if it’s to the hands of a BSV’er

Thinking out loud, wtf am I doing  Undecided Undecided

Don't be so depressed.    Wink


I am sure sgbett is a real good guy way deep down on the inside... Of course, you have to go real deep to get passed the vast majority of dweebedness parts.

Tongue Tongue Tongue




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Bitcoin is below $34K, triggered by Elon Musk's energy FUD and China's mining crack down.

There is also a more fundamental reason that we see weakness in June, and possibly July. My worst case scenario for 2021 (price/on-chain based): Aug>47K, Sep>43K, Oct>63K, Nov>98K, Dec>135K

https://twitter.com/100trillionusd/status/1406577006230245376?s=21

Wow... "worst case scenario" is pretty damned BIG... especially for a supposed "scientist."
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