Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[goldkingcoiner]

Not the Dutch government: HODLing is taxed, selling only gets you questions from your bank.

Wow. Wtf. How does that work? You buy at 1k and it grows to 100k and if you don't sell then you owe taxes on that 100k? What if next year it goes from 100k to 1k? Do you get your taxes back?

Seriously, nobody living in places with unfair tax laws should sell themselves out to their government by linking KYC or info on their crypto assets.

As long as you don't sell yourself out and don't make your purchases traceable to yourself, your bags stay hidden. Thats the very point of Bitcoin.

[LoyceV]

Not the Dutch government: HODLing is taxed, selling only gets you questions from your bank.

Wow. Wtf. How does that work? You buy at 1k and it grows to 100k and if you don't sell then you owe taxes on that 100k? What if next year it goes from 100k to 1k? Do you get your taxes back?

It doesn't matter if you sell or not, anything you own is taxed each year by up to 1.76%. That's great if you gain a lot in one year, but it drains your funds in the long run.

Seriously, nobody living in places with unfair tax laws should sell themselves out to their government by linking KYC or info on their crypto assets.

As long as you don't sell yourself out and don't link your purchases to yourself, your bags stay hidden. Thats the very point of Bitcoin.

The problem with that is: you can't ever enjoy your money if it's hidden and the value gets high enough. You can't answer the questions you get when you pay a Lambo in cash.

[tertius993]

I honestly don't mind paying my fair share of tax. Can't be greedy now. Just a heads up to all in the uk

I very much mind paying any tax to such fuckers, when instead the government could just print some more fiat from fresh air. In fact, when a government can magically create money from nothing whenever it wants, it makes me question why I've been paying taxes my whole life.

Because any government that attempted to do that would be rapidly facing hyperinflation. I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t want to live in a country like Weimar Germany or the Zimbabwe of a few years ago.

I hate to break it to you, but it's already happening. You've heard of "quantitative easing" right?

EDIT:  you might also have heard it called "money printer go brrrrr"

Yes of course, and so you are seeing right now the effects of doing it on what is actually a limited scale.

If they tried to do what you imply - which is simply print money with no attempt to bring money in through taxation the result would be off the scale and nothing like what we see today.

You're absolutely right. However, what other choice do governments have? They HAVE to keep the money printers on, which is currently causing the rising inflation we're seeing everywhere (maybe hyperinflation, depending on how much they print and which figures you believe - I'm hoping you don't believe governments' official inflation figures, by the way). This is one reason why we hodl bitcoin, since it's the only real money to ever have existed and the only reliable way to safeguard your wealth against reckless governments causing (potentially hyper-) inflation.

I agree it is a serious problem and I certainly don’t know the solution.

Regarding “real” inflation, yes I would agree it’s probably rather higher than the official figures, however, it’s certainly not hyper-inflation (not yet anyway!) - I certainly haven’t seen prices going up multiple times in the same day, as was seen in Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe.

[goldkingcoiner]

Not the Dutch government: HODLing is taxed, selling only gets you questions from your bank.

Wow. Wtf. How does that work? You buy at 1k and it grows to 100k and if you don't sell then you owe taxes on that 100k? What if next year it goes from 100k to 1k? Do you get your taxes back?

It doesn't matter if you sell or not, anything you own is taxed each year by up to 1.76%. That's great if you gain a lot in one year, but it drains your funds in the long run.

Seriously, nobody living in places with unfair tax laws should sell themselves out to their government by linking KYC or info on their crypto assets.

As long as you don't sell yourself out and don't link your purchases to yourself, your bags stay hidden. Thats the very point of Bitcoin.

The problem with that is: you can't ever enjoy your money if it's hidden and the value gets high enough. You can't answer the questions you get when you pay a Lambo cash.

Thats true. But if you have enough money to buy a lambo, you shouldn't care if some of your money is taxxed.

But as far as the little man is concerned, I don't think that hiding lambos will be a problem for most people. I think the majority of coiners would rather quietly enjoy a modest and slightly higher standard of living under the radar of the government. Especially in countries with bad governments which try to keep the poor as disadvantaged as possible (USA, for example). Or countries that will take your business, your life and your money away from you if you say something bad about the government (China, for example).

I am happy to pay taxes because I know my government will give back to the people. But if my government starts going crazy and starts killing innocent people or putting them into camps, I will keep my funds out of their pockets.  

[JayJuanGee]

I honestly don't mind paying my fair share of tax. Can't be greedy now. Just a heads up to all in the uk

I very much mind paying any tax to such fuckers, when instead the government could just print some more fiat from fresh air.

Of course, there is some validity to sentiments that governments have tendencies to be irresponsible and abusive with how they spend revenues/taxes, and I doubt that we are going to completely get rid of taxes - even if they go by some other name.  Even consider citadels that attempt to be more responsible and minimum government, the more that any of those systems attempt to be realistic about the establishment of any kind of community, there ends up being costs that somehow need to be covered.. and I really doubt that we can either rely upon voluntary contributions or any benevolent contributors (the richer ones).. to pay for some of the needed public good things.. so yeah, we can bash government all that we like.. that's the easy part.

Regarding, your assertion that they can just print more money.. that's nonsense and you know it. It is already problematic for governments to be engaged in such irresponsible behaviors of printing beyond sustainability levels, and largely they have created some of their own issues - and surely some folks have argued that governments just devolve into this kind of situation no matter what when they have power over the printer... so calling for more money printing hardly makes any sense - even if it really does seem that governments hardly have any way out of the trap that they created for themselves in terms of if they really want to survive. how the hell do they actually stop printing or to tapper it... even if they say that's what they plan to do.. it is almost impossible to get out of the trap that they have created for themselves over the past 50 years or so.. and yeah.. it is a multi-generational problem that has been created and yeah surely there are quite a few undeservings who had disproportionately benefitted from  such system.. and yeah even now, the beneficiaries of irresponsibility do continue to be Americans who receive money and the expenses are being more greatly borne by the whole world and further down the money chain (Cantillon effect).

In fact, when a government can magically create money from nothing whenever it wants, it makes me question why I've been paying taxes my whole life.

Yes.. taxes is better than printing (edit: part of a point that tertius993 seemed to have been making).. because it is at least some kind of an attempt to connect government value with some kind of production value.. and sure we can argue about the various kinds of taxes and that some taxes are more unfair than others, but taxes seem to be way the hell more sustainable as a system than so much of the bullshit around the outrageous creation of debt to value what get's paid for way before the money is even adequately accounted (or that is how it seems to play out so frequently).. that got worse in the 70s (after detaching from the gold standard).. but does have roots that go back further than that.. and WW1 and WW2 were not exactly funded without debt.. but maybe it does not make a whole hell of a lot of sense to try to suss out the problems before the early 70s.. but we cannot exactly start from scratch either.. even though bitcoin is likely going to continue to create a lot of incentives for more responsible government action.. but even the incentives within bitcoin could take 50 years or more to sort out in ways that are broadly applicable.. and not without quite a few decently intense battles along the way... and sure there does not need to be bloodshed.. even though we know that negative aspects of change do not necessarily tend to get distributed in ways that are objectively fair.

I honestly don't mind paying my fair share of tax. Can't be greedy now. Just a heads up to all in the uk

I very much mind paying any tax to such fuckers, when instead the government could just print some more fiat from fresh air. In fact, when a government can magically create money from nothing whenever it wants, it makes me question why I've been paying taxes my whole life.

Because any government that attempted to do that would be rapidly facing hyperinflation. I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t want to live in a country like Weimar Germany or the Zimbabwe of a few years ago.

I hate to break it to you, but it's already happening. You've heard of "quantitative easing" right?

EDIT:  you might also have heard it called "money printer go brrrrr"

The only difference between inflation and hyperinflation is the relative speed change.

You are exaggerating a wee bit too much again, Torque... some levels of inflation can be managed and even sustainable..(edit: another point that tertius993 seemed to have been making) we had that for 100 years in the USA.. and sure, there are consequences and sure there is disproportionate beneficiaries and sure there is some smoke and mirrors going on.. but there surely are real considerable differences between something that has potential for sustainability versus something that goes out of anywhere  kind of semblance of control.

[strawbs]

Regarding, your assertion that they can just print more money.. that's nonsense and you know it.

It is, and I do (you got me - I don't really believe in the point I was making but that's not a reason not to make it). But I think you also understand my more general point: taxation being seen to be unfair whilst money is being created from nothing.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Arriemoller]

Not the Dutch government: HODLing is taxed, selling only gets you questions from your bank.

Wow. Wtf. How does that work? You buy at 1k and it grows to 100k and if you don't sell then you owe taxes on that 100k? What if next year it goes from 100k to 1k? Do you get your taxes back?

It doesn't matter if you sell or not, anything you own is taxed each year by up to 1.76%. That's great if you gain a lot in one year, but it drains your funds in the long run.

Seriously, nobody living in places with unfair tax laws should sell themselves out to their government by linking KYC or info on their crypto assets.

As long as you don't sell yourself out and don't link your purchases to yourself, your bags stay hidden. Thats the very point of Bitcoin.

The problem with that is: you can't ever enjoy your money if it's hidden and the value gets high enough. You can't answer the questions you get when you pay a Lambo in cash.

So it's a wealth tax on goods worth more than 50 000 euro if I understand it correctly?

We used to have something similar, but it was scrapped together with inheritance tax and gift tax in 2005, when the government realized that it was counterproductive.

[Arriemoller]

I'm of to bed to read a book.
Stay safe guys.

[BitcoinBunny]

The Dutch tax system + the lack of affordable detached houses are the main reasons I moved back to the UK. 1 thing I could never go back to is living in a house straight next door to other people and hearing them take a dump in the middle of the night. 

It's not necessarily paradise here in the UK but anything worse just becomes a bit of a joke in my opinion. I saw what was happening over there quite some time ago and with the recent mega pump in house prices in The Netherlands I wonder how most people afford a decent place to live, if you don't want to have a spouse especially.

And the thieving tax bastards in The Netherlands have STILL not formed a government 9 months after the election.

That would never happen over here in the UK btw.
1 week here and people become unaccepting of the situation / validity of those in charge.

The Netherlands is a bit weird in that sense.

[Arriemoller]

Oh I forgot, I also got a new medal today, a medal I already have, sort of.
It used to be a badge but now it has been elevated to a medal and you can't wear the old badge anymore so I had to buy the new version, yes buy, the cheap bastards only give them to those awarded it in the future.
I'll show you a picture tomorrow.

[JayJuanGee]

Regarding, your assertion that they can just print more money.. that's nonsense and you know it.

It is, and I do (you got me - I don't really believe in the point I was making but that's not a reason not to make it). But I think you also understand my more general point: taxation being seen to be unfair whilst money is being created from nothing.

Personally, I do not find the whining about taxes and government to be a very convincing approach.. even though it is quite popular and I suppose that it has its place... and these surely can be evolving topics too, because sometimes I do find myself making arguments that I thought that I would not be making - so we are surely living in confusing times, and even with some of the corona bullshit, it is so damned strange to see so many people wearing masks outside.. and gosh kids seem to be controlled a lot in this regard.. so I really did hate school, and I wonder if I would have hated it more if there were masks back in my day.. or if I would have ended up going along with it.. just so difficult to say because it is sometimes hard to put yourself back into earlier times..and just some of the distrust of strangers and the ways that the alienating of people from others can end up being used against people in terms of implementing policies that are not really in the interest of the people... whether we are referring to monetary policy or social justice issues.. and Jesus I have frequently thought that social justice issues were ways to create division and even to distract from government economic policy issues, and surely we are all over the place with governmental involvement in various areas of identity and individual rights and privacy and surely is frustrating for almost anyone no matter which sides of the issues.

[strawbs]

Regarding, your assertion that they can just print more money.. that's nonsense and you know it.

It is, and I do (you got me - I don't really believe in the point I was making but that's not a reason not to make it). But I think you also understand my more general point: taxation being seen to be unfair whilst money is being created from nothing.

Personally, I do not find the whining about taxes and government to be a very convincing approach.. even though it is quite popular and I suppose that it has its place... and these surely can be evolving topics too, because sometimes I do find myself making arguments that I thought that I would not be making - so we are surely living in confusing times, and even with some of the corona bullshit, it is so damned strange to see so many people wearing masks outside.. and gosh kids seem to be controlled a lot in this regard.. so I really did hate school, and I wonder if I would have hated it more if there were masks back in my day.. or if I would have ended up going along with it.. just so difficult to say because it is sometimes hard to put yourself back into earlier times..and just some of the distrust of strangers and the ways that the alienating of people from others can end up being used against people in terms of implementing policies that are not really in the interest of the people... whether we are referring to monetary policy or social justice issues.. and Jesus I have frequently thought that social justice issues were ways to create division and even to distract from government economic policy issues, and surely we are all over the place with governmental involvement in various areas of identity and individual rights and privacy and surely is frustrating for almost anyone no matter which sides of the issues.

Sure. Perhaps a better way to put it would be to say that I wouldn't mind paying my fair share of taxes if (when?) bitcoin replaces fiat in the economy and I am taxed in bitcoin. Then I would know that my taxes couldn't just as easily have been raised from a money printer; and that they cannot be inflated away.

[Tash]

That would never happen over here in the UK btw.
1 week here and people become unaccepting of the situation / validity of those in charge.

The Netherlands is a bit weird in that sense.

I guess Northen Ireland is not part of the UK in your book
10 Jan 2020

Northern Ireland has now had three years without a functioning government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/38648719

[vapourminer]

I am happy to pay taxes because I know my government will give back to the people. But if my government starts going crazy and starts killing innocent people or putting them into camps, I will keep my funds out of their pockets. 

i get what youre saying, but that strategy just might get you into one of those "camps" you speak of.

i hate taxes as much as the next guy and especially some of what my gov finances with them, but here in the "Land of the Free" (USA) my freedom would end real fast if i messed with the IRS.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[BitcoinBunny]

That would never happen over here in the UK btw.
1 week here and people become unaccepting of the situation / validity of those in charge.

The Netherlands is a bit weird in that sense.

I guess Northen Ireland is not part of the UK in your book
10 Jan 2020

Northern Ireland has now had three years without a functioning government.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/38648719

Touché.

Was devolution worth it if that is the outcome?

Money for old rope.

Furthermore I firmly believe devolution mostly came about to try to keep the Scots happy. The only thing it has in fact led to is more desire to be fully independent rather than less.
In that sense it can be regarded as yet another government failure.

Perhaps the Scots will still break away. What will happen to NI and Wales will be interesting at that point.

It's all a gigantic money wasting mess, that's for sure.

All these layers of government and still imbeciles in charge.

[goldkingcoiner]

I am happy to pay taxes because I know my government will give back to the people. But if my government starts going crazy and starts killing innocent people or putting them into camps, I will keep my funds out of their pockets. 

i get what youre saying, but that strategy just might get you into one of those "camps" you speak of.

i hate taxes as much as the next guy and especially some of what my gov finances with them, but here in the "Land of the Free" (USA) my freedom would end real fast if i messed with the IRS.

Doesn't sound like freedom to me, friend.

Of course you would refuse to join the slaughtering and get sent to the camps anyway. In which case, your bank account and fiat would get seized and the money would be used for bombs and bullets. They can't do the same with Bitcoin.

Bitcoin macht frei.

[Phil_S]

time to revisit this prediction from page 27069:

Dec 9th 2021 $261k

sigh...  

[vapourminer]

time to revisit this prediction from page 27069:

Dec 9th 2021 $261k

sigh... 

well its not technically the 9th here in my timezone so all it needs to do is rise a mere $210k USD in the next few hours

ye of little faith.... sigh