Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[jonoiv]

what chart are you using chromosoma?

im guessing it's 1 min btc-e

[chromosoma]

This is one here:
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/btce/btcusd

[seleme]

It's btc-e bot, it is operating for 10-15 days now at least. On first look pointless bot losing the money but last time it appeared we dropped from 480 to 410 soon.

[jonoiv]

It's btc-e bot, it is operating for 10-15 days now at least. On first look pointless bot losing the money but last time it appeared we dropped from 480 to 410 soon.

ouch!  for real ?   do you remember the time and date it was last seen?

[JayJuanGee]

someone is playing god and manipulating  bitcoin market right now.=)

agreed.   I think they have been playing it for a long time though.

yeah, but  BTC-e charts i soooo artificial, likely coused  by one or few persons playing in team:)

100% agree. 

Not even sure it's people.  It feels like it's something bigger like a corporation, hedge fund, or some government with unlimited funds.   

maybe there are more than 13 million BTC out there, and we're all getting scammed to hell. 

3 black crows ! huobi

Well, we already know that once BTC is off of the blockchain and the transactions are taking place off of the blockchain, then much manipulation is possible, including increasing the number of BTC that are supposedly in existence within that sphere.  Gox seemed to have been example of precisely that b/c Gox  seemed to have been knowingly and willingly trading with BTC that they knew they did NOT have.  Will be interesting if anyone is convicted for any crimes (such as fraud) concerning that behavior.

[billyjoeallen]

What does "manipulation" even mean to you? You think you have some God given right to buy low and sell high? It is likely big players are buying and selling back to themselves hoping to ignite a rally or spark a panic that they can take advantage of, but you can just as easily skim off of them by betting against the signal. Or bet with it and ride the trend if you want. That's not manipulation. That's how free marker price discovery works. Shaking out the weak hands.

Nobody is front running your buy or sell order. Nobody is shorting coins that don't exist. Even if you suspected as much, all you would have to do is go to another exchange.  By bitching about manipulation, all you are telling me is that you can't hack this game and should go away. If you think you have an edge in some way, bet on it and I won't call you a manipulator. If you don't think you have an edge, find one or just go away. The free market's a jungle and you sound like you'd be happier in a zoo.

[JorgeStolfi]

Is you claim that there are big bitcoin investors that don't yet know about emptygox and china issues,

People who are currently invested in bitcoin, big or small, have already reacted to MtGOX.  They may not have reacted to China yet, because it is not yet clear what effect the China develpments will have on the price.

On the other hand, for prospective investors, MtGOX, and the dozens of bitcoin-based businesses that ended in scams, thefts and failure, must still be very significant.  People who read or saw on TV that MtGOX swallowed half a billion dollars from customers -- including bitcoin experts -- will not easily forget that when the bitcoin salesman rings the door.  Especially when those people learn that such scams keep occurring, the lost bitcoins are never recovered, and no one gets punished.

or that the situations are worse than anyone knows?

The China situation is still uncertain.  No one has confirmed, but no one has denied, that the bank accounts will be closed by April 15.

The BTC price in china is rising now, meaning that the market's expectations may have become more optimistic.  However, since there have been no news that would justify a change of perspective, it may be just a false feeling. ("The plane has been falling for five minutes already, and we haven't crashed yet; I am starting to believe that the ground is just a rumor.")

[chessnut]

^^ exactly.

If you can see clearly the manipulation, what's the problem? nobody has any special advantages in a zero sum game.

[seleme]

It's btc-e bot, it is operating for 10-15 days now at least. On first look pointless bot losing the money but last time it appeared we dropped from 480 to 410 soon.

ouch!  for real ?   do you remember the time and date it was last seen?

March 31st/April 1st. Can't recall it was up after that, certainly not in this kind of 4-5 series.

[jonoiv]

someone is playing god and manipulating  bitcoin market right now.=)

agreed.   I think they have been playing it for a long time though.

yeah, but  BTC-e charts i soooo artificial, likely coused  by one or few persons playing in team:)

100% agree. 

Not even sure it's people.  It feels like it's something bigger like a corporation, hedge fund, or some government with unlimited funds.   

maybe there are more than 13 million BTC out there, and we're all getting scammed to hell. 

3 black crows ! huobi

Well, we already know that once BTC is off of the blockchain and the transactions are taking place off of the blockchain, then much manipulation is possible, including increasing the number of BTC that are supposedly in existence within that sphere.  Gox seemed to have been example of precisely that b/c Gox  seemed to have been knowingly and willingly trading with BTC that they knew they did NOT have.  Will be interesting if anyone is convicted for any crimes (such as fraud) concerning that behavior.

  

I hope they throw the book at the desert coffee guy.

as for going off the chain. It's very easy, I bet about 10% of other alt coin forum members know how to do it.  

just the connect=x.x.x.x (ip address) is needed in the config file, and change the seed node in net.cpp  change the p2p port. then recompile, connect with 2 PC's and you can mine getting all the blocks on a different block chain, forked from the original at the point of divergence.  

Not that, that will get you anywhere,  but it just shows how easy some stuff is if you mess with the source code.

There will be someone out there, thats cleverer than Gavin Anderson or any other member of the BTC team.   It worries me!  Bitcoin is still beta!  and we are still experimenting...  

the forum member Dreamwatcher developed a tool that may save the situation in the future.  It's a distribution tool,  meaning that bitcoin if needed can be changed into a whole new crypto,  and the existing balances can be maintained from the original chain.  

He used it effectively on UFC coin when it moved from scrypt hash to Blake256.

Open a new wallet on the new coin, with your old wallet.dat file and your coins magically appear.  These guys are so cleaver it's scary.  

[byronbb]

^^ exactly.

If you can see clearly the manipulation, what's the problem? nobody has any special advantages in a zero sum game.

Well before the SEC there were lots of things big traders were doing that eventually became illegal, but maybe your point still stands.

[JayJuanGee]

What does "manipulation" even mean to you? You think you have some God given right to buy low and sell high? It is likely big players are buying and selling back to themselves hoping to ignite a rally or spark a panic that they can take advantage of, but you can just as easily skim off of them by betting against the signal. Or bet with it and ride the trend if you want. That's not manipulation. That's how free marker price discovery works. Shaking out the weak hands.

Nobody is front running your buy or sell order. Nobody is shorting coins that don't exist. Even if you suspected as much, all you would have to do is go to another exchange.  By bitching about manipulation, all you are telling me is that you can't hack this game and should go away. If you think you have an edge in some way, bet on it and I won't call you a manipulator. If you don't think you have an edge, find one or just go away. The free market's a jungle and you sound like you'd be happier in a zoo.

If you are referring to me (since my post using the term "manipulation" is immediately preceding your quasi-incomprehensible rant of a post), I will entertain you with a brief response.

First:  why is it that you seem to have some kind of cork up your ass and you seem to want to argue... Maybe you have a little time on your hands, since the market is NOT moving too much?

Second:  You seem to either to have NOT read my post, or you are getting it all out of context.  Surely, there are a lot of ways to discuss manipulation, and I have used the word in a variety of ways in the past.  In my above post, I used the term manipulation to refer to what seems to have been a real dynamic concerning what was going on with GOX.  In reality, even today, after a couple of months of their being shut down, the evidence in the public is fairly unclear about what was going on at GOX; however, there seems to be considerable consensus around the point that GOX was engaged in some form of manipulation of the quantity of BTC that they had and the quantity of BTC that they were allowing to be traded.  In that regard, if those BTC do NOT exist then GOX should NOT have been allowing them to be traded.  Surely some ambiguity whether they broke any laws or NOT, but there is a certain amount of risk that takes place when owners of BTC entrust their BTC to a third party, outside of the blockchain.  I believe that there are a variety of solutions that are being considered and worked on in order to allow for decentralized exchanges... in order that owners of BTC would NOT have to entrust their BTC to third parties (at least NOT as much as what seems to be taking place under centralized exchange systems).

Third:  your reference to other kinds of manipulation that may be taking place by whales on exchanges were NOT a part of my earlier post, so it seems to be a rant without any immediate foundation.  Although I have brought up that subject in previous posts, i have NOT mentioned it in recent posts.  If you want to go down that avenue, then probably we need a context, rather than you merely creating some kind of lack of context argument that is difficult to pinpoint b/c it seems to be a fiction of your own creation, even though definitely it is a worthy topic.

Fourth:  Your several times retort about wanting to me to go away is a little bit hilarious  - like you are all emotional about some infliction that I supposedly caused.. and the solution is that I should supposedly go away.  This thread should be big enough for all of us, no?  I just cannot agree that I am going to only post items that are within your tolerance and acceptance.. or that my BTC investment perspective is sufficiently aligned with your values, if you have any.. they have been difficult to pinpoint recently.

Fifth:  If there is some personal matter that you want to discuss, then I am open to PM.... Don't want to bore folks here with matters that may end up having some personal concerns about style or courtesy or whatever...

I have a couple more points, but I will save them for later, if needed... Hopefully, my points above are sufficient to respond to your concerns and to help to clarify matters to some extent.

[chessnut]

^^ exactly.

If you can see clearly the manipulation, what's the problem? nobody has any special advantages in a zero sum game.

Well before the SEC there were lots of things big traders were doing that eventually became illegal, but maybe your point still stands.

The government is responsible for consumer protection. If nobody wants manipulation in stock markets, commodity markets etc... then let democracy have its way. But in bitcoin land, well, we asked for freedom, and hey..... we got it! and it's great. but unfortunately manipulation cannot be dealt with in the protocol. now people will need to learn for once how to deal with their problems them selves.

[jonoiv]

It's btc-e bot, it is operating for 10-15 days now at least. On first look pointless bot losing the money but last time it appeared we dropped from 480 to 410 soon.

ouch!  for real ?   do you remember the time and date it was last seen?

March 31st/April 1st. Can't recall it was up after that, certainly not in this kind of 4-5 series.

looking at that 480 - 410 drop, the only similarity I can see between now, and then is the 4 hour MACD,  they are at very similar stages. and about the same volume.  

Maybe this is triggering the bot.  




EDIT: 4 hour MACD

[JayJuanGee]

someone is playing god and manipulating  bitcoin market right now.=)

agreed.   I think they have been playing it for a long time though.

yeah, but  BTC-e charts i soooo artificial, likely coused  by one or few persons playing in team:)

100% agree. 

Not even sure it's people.  It feels like it's something bigger like a corporation, hedge fund, or some government with unlimited funds.   

maybe there are more than 13 million BTC out there, and we're all getting scammed to hell. 

3 black crows ! huobi

Well, we already know that once BTC is off of the blockchain and the transactions are taking place off of the blockchain, then much manipulation is possible, including increasing the number of BTC that are supposedly in existence within that sphere.  Gox seemed to have been example of precisely that b/c Gox  seemed to have been knowingly and willingly trading with BTC that they knew they did NOT have.  Will be interesting if anyone is convicted for any crimes (such as fraud) concerning that behavior.

  

I hope they throw the book at the desert coffee guy.

as for going off the chain. It's very easy, I bet about 10% of other alt coin forum members know how to do it.  

just the connect=x.x.x.x (ip address) is needed in the config file, and change the seed node in net.cpp  change the p2p port. then recompile, connect with 2 PC's and you can mine getting all the blocks on a different block chain, forked from the original at the point of divergence.  

Not that, that will get you anywhere,  but it just shows how easy some stuff is if you mess with the source code.

There will be someone out there, thats cleverer than Gavin Anderson or any other member of the BTC team.   It worries me!  Bitcoin is still beta!  and we are still experimenting...  

the forum member Dreamwatcher developed a tool that may save the situation in the future.  It's a distribution tool,  meaning that bitcoin if needed can be changed into a whole new crypto,  and the existing balances can be maintained from the original chain.  

He used it effectively on UFC coin when it moved from scrypt hash to Blake256.

Open a new wallet on the new coin, with your old wallet.dat file and your coins magically appear.  These guys are so cleaver it's scary.  

These are all very good points, yet they are even above and beyond the point that I was making.   I was saying that most of the exchanges or even some services like silkroad or some other service allows you to create an account.  Thereafter, those transactions within the service are taking place off of the blockchain, and allows for manipulation of how many BTC are being used to employ the services of the business.. and whether they even have as many BTC as customers have given to them.  And, that causes a manipulation of potentially creating more than 21 million BTC b/c these kinds of entities could be engaging in a form of fractional reserve... .and we may NOT be able to know or detect such fractional reserve practices until we want to get our coins from them (or everyone wants their coins).

[billyjoeallen]

^^ exactly.

If you can see clearly the manipulation, what's the problem? nobody has any special advantages in a zero sum game.

Well before the SEC there were lots of things big traders were doing that eventually became illegal, but maybe your point still stands.

The SEC is worthless. They can be bought. Who regulates the regulators? The solutions are both technological and good ol' fashioned caveat emptor.  Reggie Middleton designed a way to trade stocks on the blockchain. I think the idea holds great promise.

I just don't get the gripes. If you think JP Morgan is artificially suppressing gold prices, then good! Buy gold at a discount. Just don't buy at a discount and then gripe that you may also have to sell at a discount. You can't have it both ways.

You think bitcoin price is artificially high? Then quit bitching and sell. or don't buy any. If you think it's artificially low then buy more. People are buying and selling based on information you don't have. They always have and always will. But maybe you have information they don't have. Nobody knows everything.

And the griping that rich people have disproportionate influence over your future is infantile. I'd rather have rich people with disproportionate influence than poor people. They are much worse.

[JayJuanGee]

^^ exactly.

If you can see clearly the manipulation, what's the problem? nobody has any special advantages in a zero sum game.

Well before the SEC there were lots of things big traders were doing that eventually became illegal, but maybe your point still stands.

The government is responsible for consumer protection. If nobody wants manipulation in stock markets, commodity markets etc... then let democracy have its way. But in bitcoin land, well, we asked for freedom, and hey..... we got it! and it's great. but unfortunately manipulation cannot be dealt with in the protocol. now people will need to learn for once how to deal with their problems them selves.

Various solutions are evolving regarding this wild-wild west, and maybe in time, there will be decentralized solutions that solve some of the problems of people running off with coins, for example... Hopefully!!!  I know during innovation stages, there are going to be risks.. but I would hate to lose all my coins b/c some smart 16 year old figured out a way to hack into my wallet or to divert my transaction or something like that.

[jonoiv]

someone is playing god and manipulating  bitcoin market right now.=)

agreed.   I think they have been playing it for a long time though.

yeah, but  BTC-e charts i soooo artificial, likely coused  by one or few persons playing in team:)

100% agree. 

Not even sure it's people.  It feels like it's something bigger like a corporation, hedge fund, or some government with unlimited funds.   

maybe there are more than 13 million BTC out there, and we're all getting scammed to hell. 

3 black crows ! huobi

Well, we already know that once BTC is off of the blockchain and the transactions are taking place off of the blockchain, then much manipulation is possible, including increasing the number of BTC that are supposedly in existence within that sphere.  Gox seemed to have been example of precisely that b/c Gox  seemed to have been knowingly and willingly trading with BTC that they knew they did NOT have.  Will be interesting if anyone is convicted for any crimes (such as fraud) concerning that behavior.

  

I hope they throw the book at the desert coffee guy.

as for going off the chain. It's very easy, I bet about 10% of other alt coin forum members know how to do it.  

just the connect=x.x.x.x (ip address) is needed in the config file, and change the seed node in net.cpp  change the p2p port. then recompile, connect with 2 PC's and you can mine getting all the blocks on a different block chain, forked from the original at the point of divergence.  

Not that, that will get you anywhere,  but it just shows how easy some stuff is if you mess with the source code.

There will be someone out there, thats cleverer than Gavin Anderson or any other member of the BTC team.   It worries me!  Bitcoin is still beta!  and we are still experimenting...  

the forum member Dreamwatcher developed a tool that may save the situation in the future.  It's a distribution tool,  meaning that bitcoin if needed can be changed into a whole new crypto,  and the existing balances can be maintained from the original chain.  

He used it effectively on UFC coin when it moved from scrypt hash to Blake256.

Open a new wallet on the new coin, with your old wallet.dat file and your coins magically appear.  These guys are so cleaver it's scary.  

These are all very good points, yet they are even above and beyond the point that I was making.   I was saying that most of the exchanges or even some services like silkroad or some other service allows you to create an account.  Thereafter, those transactions within the service are taking place off of the blockchain, and allows for manipulation of how many BTC are being used to employ the services of the business.. and whether they even have as many BTC as customers have given to them.  And, that causes a manipulation of potentially creating more than 21 million BTC b/c these kinds of entities could be engaging in a form of fractional reserve... .and we may NOT be able to know or detect such fractional reserve practices until we want to get our coins from them (or everyone wants their coins).

arrr...  yer .. Im with ya now   Yep trading a database number price not actual BTC.


  I guess if BTC does survive the next few years, people will move to regulated exchanges.  what makes BTC great is also it's weakness.   

[podyx]

who is selling

[octaft]

And the griping that rich people have disproportionate influence over your future is infantile. I'd rather have rich people with disproportionate influence than poor people. They are much worse.

If Ayn Rand had a dick, how far down your throat do you think it would be? 3 inches? 4? The whole goddamn 8?