Bitcoin Forum
September 25, 2022, 12:00:08 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 23.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 [54] 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
Author Topic: CryptoKingdom Uncensored  (Read 69347 times)
KLONE
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 264
Merit: 250


View Profile
March 15, 2018, 11:41:19 AM
Last edit: March 15, 2018, 11:54:42 AM by KLONE
 #1061

What would happen if the forked CK paid b1 & e1 debts, and later Risto regained his sanity and started working on original CK version with PJ? Could he write off the b1 & e1 debts in CK original, because they were paid in CK fork? I don't think we've seen the last of Risto, so this is possible .... arrgh lol

I agree, leave the depo stuff behind us, and get CK restarted and M listed on an exchange asap!


Which game would repay those debts? Crypto Kingdom certainly would not.
It's Zechariach and other Rpietilas charachters ingame.


If there are two versions of CK ( CK::legacy & CK::fork ), and the b1 debts are paid using Risto's assets in CK::fork, then what would happen if Risto came back and restarted CK::legacy, would you expect Risto to pay the b1 debts again, either as bitcoin or as some repayment inside CK::legacy?

1664064008
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664064008

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664064008
Reply with quote  #2

1664064008
Report to moderator
1664064008
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664064008

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664064008
Reply with quote  #2

1664064008
Report to moderator
1664064008
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664064008

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664064008
Reply with quote  #2

1664064008
Report to moderator
Remember that Bitcoin is still beta software. Don't put all of your money into BTC!
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1664064008
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664064008

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664064008
Reply with quote  #2

1664064008
Report to moderator
1664064008
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1664064008

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1664064008
Reply with quote  #2

1664064008
Report to moderator
iluvbitcoins
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1149


Freedom&Honor


View Profile
March 15, 2018, 11:52:50 AM
 #1062

What would happen if the forked CK paid b1 & e1 debts, and later Risto regained his sanity and started working on original CK version with PJ? Could he write off the b1 & e1 debts in CK original, because they were paid in CK fork? I don't think we've seen the last of Risto, so this is possible .... arrgh lol

I agree, leave the depo stuff behind us, and get CK restarted and M listed on an exchange asap!


Which game would repay those debts? Crypto Kingdom certainly would not.
It's Zechariach and other Rpietilas charachters ingame.


If there are two versions of CK ( CK::legacy & CK::fork ), and the b1 debts are paid using Risto's assets in CK::fork, then what would happen if Risto came back and restarted CK::legacy, would you expect Risto to pay the b1 debts again, either as bitcoin or as some repayment inside CK::legacy?


Ofcourse.
If you have 1BTC in Bitcoin Legacy, you'll have 1BTC in Bitcoin fork.
If you have 1BTC in CK Legacy, you should have 1BTC in CK fork.

Besides, his assets are nowhere near the value of the actual debt.
It's almost worthless, it won't cover over 10% of the actual money owed.

Looking for a signature campaign.
iluvbitcoins
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1149


Freedom&Honor


View Profile
March 15, 2018, 09:00:03 PM
 #1063

I think when people sent b1 to NEW to exit the Game there is only one debt then, so I agree that assets inside CK::legacy will be duplicated inside CK::fork, but I disagree with the debt, once it's outside CK it's one debt, and if it's paid anywhere it's paid, and can't exist again. Remember, the b1 debt is recorded in a spreadsheet, not in CK DB anymore.

afaik this was one of the main disagreements ever since HMC and two other mods took over the Game, did anyone have the authority to confiscate Risto's assets for any purpose against his wishes, and I think consensus was 'NO', that's why his accounts have been frozen. That means any change from current situation requires a fork, either to pay debts, or to use for dev funds. Either way, if we use Risto's accounts against his will I think everyone saw that as a 'fork' and not the original CK. I know that's the way I saw it, you can't confiscate Risto's accounts and still call it CK::legacy, it'll be a fork no matter what, unless we continue with the account freeze, and hope Risto negotiates which doesn't look possible now.


The consensus was because most of us believed Risto will come around and that was just destructive behavior because of his wife leaving him and other things going on with his life.

However, today, the story is different since it's pretty obvious Risto isn't coming back.

Besides, saying 'we don't have the authority to distribute Ristos funds' and then seize his funds, but not for the debtors? Instead, nationalizing them.

I don't think that's a way to go even though it is a fork.
If it were a real legit work, then the debts an ingame account has and the means to pay them should be carried over too.

Imagine there was a BTC fork that used every exchanges address to take for themselves for marketing and not carry over the BTC fork coins so users of the exchanges can use them.

Looking for a signature campaign.
CrazyLoaf
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 749
Merit: 534



View Profile
March 15, 2018, 09:29:27 PM
Merited by player99 (1)
 #1064

Guys, in regards to the depo items, this same discussion happened in 2017 and it got us nowhere. The depo stuff is not going to happen. 

And the "fork" term is being used here since that can sort of help explain the changes in one word, but to be clear, CK never had a token, blockchain, or anything of the sort. It's just a poorly designed website with a database.

Risto and PJ are not coming back. And in the case of PJ, why would you even want him back? He was paid exceptionally well by Risto (and the community) for many years and it looks like the bulk of his  development time happened all around 2015, when the "Ultima" version of the site was released.

Even the "Ultima" title is a misnomer as it was really an "ultimate fail" in terms of approaching even a fraction of the depth and enjoyment that people saw in the old Google Docs game. We kept being promised this or that feature by Risto, and we thought Risto's seemingly infinite pockets could make it happen, but it didn't happen and it won't happen.

We are hoping to drive change in a way that benefits all stakeholders in the project in an intelligent way. Naturally, there are a lot of factors to balance. The community itself was given a year to address these issues (and Risto and PJ were given even longer). Let's give this new way a try.
iluvbitcoins
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1149


Freedom&Honor


View Profile
March 15, 2018, 10:53:48 PM
 #1065

Guys, in regards to the depo items, this same discussion happened in 2017 and it got us nowhere. The depo stuff is not going to happen. 

And the "fork" term is being used here since that can sort of help explain the changes in one word, but to be clear, CK never had a token, blockchain, or anything of the sort. It's just a poorly designed website with a database.

Risto and PJ are not coming back. And in the case of PJ, why would you even want him back? He was paid exceptionally well by Risto (and the community) for many years and it looks like the bulk of his  development time happened all around 2015, when the "Ultima" version of the site was released.

Even the "Ultima" title is a misnomer as it was really an "ultimate fail" in terms of approaching even a fraction of the depth and enjoyment that people saw in the old Google Docs game. We kept being promised this or that feature by Risto, and we thought Risto's seemingly infinite pockets could make it happen, but it didn't happen and it won't happen.

We are hoping to drive change in a way that benefits all stakeholders in the project in an intelligent way. Naturally, there are a lot of factors to balance. The community itself was given a year to address these issues (and Risto and PJ were given even longer). Let's give this new way a try.

You're making a strawman over and over again.

It's been stated that nothing was going on for a year or so a few times already.

How does that have anything to do with the debt Risto and his charachters hold?

Looking for a signature campaign.
Big Naturals
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 268


View Profile
March 15, 2018, 11:08:58 PM
 #1066

Let's give this new way a try.

+1

We can go around in circles forever arguing about the depo debts, or we can get behind this fork and try and make a version of the game playable again. Either get on-board, or don't, Loaf has obviously thought everything through, and he's the one investing his time and energy into this, and he isn't going to change his roadmap now.
bv68bot
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 144
Merit: 100


View Profile
March 17, 2018, 03:25:38 AM
 #1067

Everyone - please offer thoughts on game design in particular. Syksy has done a great job starting the discussion.    

Agreed, Syksy is doing a good job with design ideas.

Could we organise something using the live DB in this interim period to help get old timers re-engaged with CK again, to help stimulate some feedback and brainstorming over design from old hands.

Maybe some good old fashion gambling, or a tournament with prizes like Risto organised for his Jubilee, anything to get people focusing on CK again while we wait for the new release.
Syksy
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 260
Merit: 105


A Lingering Ghost


View Profile
March 18, 2018, 07:47:31 AM
Last edit: March 18, 2018, 08:02:01 AM by Syksy
 #1068

Fun with potential factions...
Been experimenting with potential layouts of factions and their aims and/or motives and how they fit in the lore.
Here's a few world war -type posters that I made for kicks.
Notice that they're quite large, so unless you get 3 "posters" below the chances are imgur died while loading them.



Crown-Thorn Conglomerate:




The Free People:




Society of Conciousness




iluvbitcoins
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1149


Freedom&Honor


View Profile
March 18, 2018, 09:33:19 PM
 #1069

It would be a good idea to have Crypto Wars.

To group certain cryptocurrencies in groups that would fight against eachother.

Looking for a signature campaign.
Big Naturals
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 756
Merit: 268


View Profile
March 19, 2018, 02:09:42 AM
 #1070

It would be a good idea to have Crypto Wars.

To group certain cryptocurrencies in groups that would fight against eachother.


Good idea!

big blockers vs small blockers
PoW vs PoS
XMR vs Z-cash
SIA vs STORJ

 etc

Lots of great match ups in the cryptosphere,
CrazyLoaf
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 749
Merit: 534



View Profile
March 19, 2018, 02:39:51 AM
 #1071

It would be a good idea to have Crypto Wars.

To group certain cryptocurrencies in groups that would fight against eachother.

Perhaps "Crypto Wars" is something that could develop over time (as coin communities join the game). People join a Doge or Pepe faction, etc.

In the meantime, it might be worth having some CK "lore" specific factions. This would get the roleplaying starting and also offer a blueprint if others would want to create their own factions. Some comments off Ryver from Syksy:

"[was going for] more of a Despotic Monarch -archetype (maybe Game of Thrones?), who have a claim on the heritage of CK in a future renderition, due to a claim of descending directly from the old kings (thus, some of the rhetorics in it and pseudo-Christian name) - I wanted to create a faction where e.g. slavery would be allowed and such, to create a variety of different political ruler types (Republics, Monarchies, Unions, etc)

that's 3 of 8+ factions I had in mind, each with a little twist in them... and trying to tie them together to a potential historical explanation of CK'd have evolved to that point, and where there would a variety of factions each with their own strengths and weaknesses"

In reference to comparisons to modern Western politics:

"if you think about the Conservatism - Libertarian aspect which I think dominates the US politics, that struggle is actually with entities such as the Society of Conciousness (a theocratic, conservatic faction) and technocratic entities (Council of Peace and Progress, which is basically a tech-orientated war-mongerer that profits out of conflict but doesn't get its own fingers burnt; and the Next Step, a highly experimental group that triggered a war with Society of Conciousness after crossing the man-machine barrier in a dieselpunk setting, hence the quote in Society of Counciousness -poster)"

And comparison to Dune:

"maybe some of you noticed the mention of Salt at multiple places - the war between the Free People and CTC is actually rethorics revolving around Salt, which I was going to have as a novel economical good incorporated to this new (fic-based) rendition of CK; it's a direct reference to Frank Hubert's Dune-saga, by replacing Salt by Spice... and you'll have pretty much a similar good"
CrazyLoaf
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 749
Merit: 534



View Profile
March 19, 2018, 07:41:18 PM
 #1072

Anyone interested in pitching in on the game design for the new CK?
silenticx
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 112
Merit: 0


View Profile
March 19, 2018, 07:55:16 PM
 #1073


The gambling market in the UK is one of the greatest in the world.
The size of the UK gambling market exceeds 14 billion pounds each year. Zero Edge will market its first blockchain-based gambling sites on the UK market, shortly after the ICO is completed and all Zerocoins are circulated to the public.
boomboom
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1068
Merit: 523



View Profile
March 19, 2018, 11:42:36 PM
 #1074

Anyone interested in pitching in on the game design for the new CK?

Game design isn't something I know much about really, other than what I'm looking for in CK myself which is crypto monopoly played in a medieval setting, combined with a social network and communication features, plus Agora market with ability for players to create their own assets under certain conditions, so players are free to experiment and morph the Game into an infinite number of directions with unlimited possibilities.

That's how CK was pitched to me, and it sounded pretty good then and still does now.

Many of the coolest features that might drive viral adoption are probably unknown now (we need players to create them), and what we need to do most now is just set the most basic rules & parameters, and let the Game start, and then get feedback from 'active' players.

Maybe that is naive, thinking we can restart the Game without knowing all the final game design elements first, but as long as we don't lock in too many settings that can't be changed later, I think what we need most now is something basic people can use asap, even if it's like the spreadsheet version from 2014.

I'd strongly favor an airdrop NOW, to get more stakeholders involved who have needed skills like game design etc, and offer some bounties from the dev funds risto's accounts to get people involved also. I'd also start a signature campaign, and offer some incentives to get as many of the old players as possible focused on CK again, they have the skillset and Game knowledge you need now, but most are probably jaded and disillusioned from the last 2 years, and permanently lurking for months & months. We need to offer them something to get them excited & involved.

In 2014 nearly every major XMR player was somehow involved with CK, we need to get those people BACK, and now that this fork has some $$$  'M', we probably need to open up the CK coffers to get people motivated.


So, my advice is:
1- start an airdrop & sig campaign now
2- offer bounties and prizes for things we want & need e.g design proposal competition, cherry pick the best ideas, offer multiple prizes
3- restart CK asap, even if what gets restarted is changed later, offer something people can play asap (e.g. health challenge competition for promotions like before)
3- reboot a basic economic engine (buildings, taxes, health), even if it gets changed later, create incentives for early re-adopters

Then, once new people are paying attention to CK from airdrops & sig campaigns, and old players re-focus, the social network will reboot, and that's when people will start making suggestions and offering feedback.

CasinoExpert
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56
Merit: 20


View Profile
March 19, 2018, 11:44:05 PM
 #1075

Sounds like fun! Blockchain is the future. Dev and admins still needed. Anyway, I am with you, and I will try to help what I can. I am here to play, been waiting too long already.
acdc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 939
Merit: 256



View Profile
March 21, 2018, 01:30:06 AM
 #1076

I'd strongly favor an airdrop NOW, to get more stakeholders involved who have needed skills like game design etc, and offer some bounties from the dev funds risto's accounts to get people involved also. I'd also start a signature campaign, and offer some incentives to get as many of the old players as possible focused on CK again, they have the skillset and Game knowledge you need now, but most are probably jaded and disillusioned from the last 2 years, and permanently lurking for months & months. We need to offer them something to get them excited & involved.

In 2014 nearly every major XMR player was somehow involved with CK, we need to get those people BACK, and now that this fork has some $$$  'M', we probably need to open up the CK coffers to get people motivated.

+1
Do an airdrop, CK community is comatose and needs a shot of adrenaline to wake up!


             ▄▆▆▄
           ▄████████▄
        ▄██████████████▄
     ▄███████      ███████▄
  ▄███████            ███████▄
███████                  ███████
█████▀                    ▀▀██▀
█████
█████                       ▄▆█
█████                   ▆██████
█████                   ████████
  ▀█                   █▀ ▐████
▄                          ▐████
██▆▄▄                    ▄█████
███████                  ███████
  ▀███████            ███████▀
     ▀███████      ███████▀
        ▀██████████████▀
           ▀████████▀

Graphene Airdrop Coming Soon by Phore
  █████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████           ▅▆████████▌
█████████     ▅▅▆████████████▌
█████████▆█████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████▀
██████████████████████▀▀▀
████████████████▀▀▀
█████████▀▀
█████████
█████████
boomboom
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1068
Merit: 523



View Profile
March 22, 2018, 02:11:44 AM
 #1077

I'd strongly favor an airdrop NOW, to get more stakeholders involved who have needed skills like game design etc, and offer some bounties from the dev funds risto's accounts to get people involved also. I'd also start a signature campaign, and offer some incentives to get as many of the old players as possible focused on CK again, they have the skillset and Game knowledge you need now, but most are probably jaded and disillusioned from the last 2 years, and permanently lurking for months & months. We need to offer them something to get them excited & involved.

In 2014 nearly every major XMR player was somehow involved with CK, we need to get those people BACK, and now that this fork has some $$$  'M', we probably need to open up the CK coffers to get people motivated.

+1
Do an airdrop, CK community is comatose and needs a shot of adrenaline to wake up!

An airdrop of 5% of M float now would get attention, if combined with a 5% signature bounty I think we'd see a lot more activity around CK. Existing players are carrying a lot of 'baggage' from the 2014-2017 era whatever their opinions might be on Loaf's fork - we need to dilute that negative influence by getting new people who are exclusively focused on the future and not the past.

CK legacy is sadly stuck dealing with the Risto debt issue, and it'll be impossible to get unanimous agreement on what to do. If any fork or reboot is going to work it needs to have a solid foundation of common purpose from the early adopters & founders, and I don't see that happening now, most existing players are staying silent, which makes perfect sense given the history here.

I'm going to suggest we start from scratch with game design & in-game items, and simply use the 'proof-of-burn' others have mentioned to distribute Game wealth to existing players, and then distribute remaining M and land etc from giveways , airdrops and bounties, obviously keeping a % for dev funds & further marketing etc
acdc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 939
Merit: 256



View Profile
March 22, 2018, 02:25:13 AM
 #1078

CK legacy is sadly stuck dealing with the Risto debt issue, and it'll be impossible to get unanimous agreement on what to do. If any fork or reboot is going to work it needs to have a solid foundation of common purpose from the early adopters & founders, and I don't see that happening now, most existing players are staying silent, which makes perfect sense given the history here.

I'm going to suggest we start from scratch with game design & in-game items, and simply use the 'proof-of-burn' others have mentioned to distribute Game wealth to existing players, and then distribute remaining M and land etc from giveways , airdrops and bounties, obviously keeping a % for dev funds & further marketing etc

How would you define 'proof-of-burn'? It's a good suggestion coz it would be much clearer that this isn't CK restarting but a new game entirely that airdropped on CK victims, and that would be easier to market to new punters, but how do you quanitfy the burn?


             ▄▆▆▄
           ▄████████▄
        ▄██████████████▄
     ▄███████      ███████▄
  ▄███████            ███████▄
███████                  ███████
█████▀                    ▀▀██▀
█████
█████                       ▄▆█
█████                   ▆██████
█████                   ████████
  ▀█                   █▀ ▐████
▄                          ▐████
██▆▄▄                    ▄█████
███████                  ███████
  ▀███████            ███████▀
     ▀███████      ███████▀
        ▀██████████████▀
           ▀████████▀

Graphene Airdrop Coming Soon by Phore
  █████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████           ▅▆████████▌
█████████     ▅▅▆████████████▌
█████████▆█████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████▀
██████████████████████▀▀▀
████████████████▀▀▀
█████████▀▀
█████████
█████████
boomboom
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 1068
Merit: 523



View Profile
March 22, 2018, 03:05:35 AM
 #1079

How would you define 'proof-of-burn'? It's a good suggestion coz it would be much clearer that this isn't CK restarting but a new game entirely that airdropped on CK victims, and that would be easier to market to new punters, but how do you quanitfy the burn?

It's open to suggestion but the most simple calculation would be:

deposits - withdrawals = burn

Assuming saddam has the depository records it would be possible to calculate a net profit/loss for every player from CK legacy.

Obviously, there are some players from the Risto era who made a profit, and under that formula, they wouldn't get a 'victim' airdrop in the new Game, but would that be a problem? Probably they would like to get an airdrop too, but if they made a net profit they didn't experience any 'burn', and they're probably far less interested in Loaf's fork idea than those who lost hundreds of thousands, or even some millions.

The overall net losers from saddam's depo figures are obviously desperate to salvage anything they can, whereas someone who made an overall net profit is probably not paying much attention to CK anyway, even if they are still owed b1 debts from Risto's fractional reserve depo, and they could still get other airdrops and bounties if they want to play this new Game anyway.

There's no perfect solution to the CK problem. Those who are owed big b1 debts want those paid by any fork/reboot too, but that leaves the elephant in the room - if someone made an overall net profit from their deposit/withdrawals and is owed b1 debts, are they considered to have 'lost' from CK? They would argue they played the Game more skillfully, and those b1 debts represent lost potential winnings.  

It's clearly open to opinion, but Karl Hungus lost +30K XMR in net deposit/withdrawals, and that's a real unambiguous loss, whereas virtual losses for someone who is actually up in net deposits is very debatable IMO.

acdc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 939
Merit: 256



View Profile
March 22, 2018, 03:22:17 AM
 #1080

but that leaves the elephant in the room - if someone made an overall net profit from their deposit/withdrawals and is owed b1 debts, are they considered to have 'lost' from CK? They would argue they played the Game more skillfully, and those b1 debts represent lost potential winnings.  

The b1 debt guys weren't more skillful, they just realized the Titanic was sinking first and got a seat in a liferaft, and didn't mind taking the easy money off the table from risto's crazy peg, even if it meant killing the Game. Can't blame them though, if someone yells 'fire' (or 'free money') it means the same thing - every man for himself!

In the history of crypto CK stands out as a monumental clusterfuck, comparable in size to 'The DAO' almost, amazing lol

Really hope it revives one day, still a good idea!


             ▄▆▆▄
           ▄████████▄
        ▄██████████████▄
     ▄███████      ███████▄
  ▄███████            ███████▄
███████                  ███████
█████▀                    ▀▀██▀
█████
█████                       ▄▆█
█████                   ▆██████
█████                   ████████
  ▀█                   █▀ ▐████
▄                          ▐████
██▆▄▄                    ▄█████
███████                  ███████
  ▀███████            ███████▀
     ▀███████      ███████▀
        ▀██████████████▀
           ▀████████▀

Graphene Airdrop Coming Soon by Phore
  █████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████               ████████
█████████           ▅▆████████▌
█████████     ▅▅▆████████████▌
█████████▆█████████████████████
████████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████████▀
██████████████████████▀▀▀
████████████████▀▀▀
█████████▀▀
█████████
█████████
Pages: « 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 [54] 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!