[ANN] ChipMixer.com - Bitcoin mixer / Bitcoin tumbler - mixing reinvented

[TryNinja]

I'm not CM, but...

I see, you are using a CAPTCHA. I'm not sure if it was there from the beginning.

1. What's the purpose of it?

Stopping abuse, of course.

i.e people spamming sessions as a DDoS measure.

2. Is it generated through some third party service?

It's just an image, most likely fully generated on their server (and it doesn't point to any external website; check it yourself: right click -> open image in a new tab -> check url).

3. If yes, which one? Do not they get to know your customer's data as well?

Answer seems obvious here.

4. How about using HCAPTCHA instead of it?

Answer also seems obvious. Of course it's not a good idea to implement a third party script on their website, especially due to CM's nature.

https://www.hcaptcha.com/terms

15. Our Use of Information

By performing tasks on our website, you authorize the collection, use, and disclosure of your personal information in accordance with our Privacy Policy. In addition, we may share certain information about you and your completed tasks to the Requester whose tasks you have completed to facilitate the service relationship and improve the website, including, for example, Contributor ID, results of completed tasks, and other attributes related to your qualifications, languages, skills, and use of the website.

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[TryNinja]

Ngl, @chipmixer's silence about the tweet is quite concerning.

How so?

Will you feel better if they say they don't work for the NSA? Do you just believe what people tell you on the internet?

Truth is that no one can prove anything, just like no one can prove you don't work for the CIA. Do you? Are you trying to dissuade people from using mixers so your job of tracking people is easier?

See...?


Now seriously, his tweet is basically "they spent money on marketing and work well, so they must be the government". Quite an assumption to make (besides the assumption that CM makes no money whatsoever).

[NeuroticFish]

Ngl, @chipmixer's silence about the tweet is quite concerning.

Have you, by chance, got to read up a few post earlier than yours? Chipmixer has given a pretty good answer imho.
And, realistically speaking, he cannot really prove it's not a government honeypot. Plus, it's the one making the accusation that has to prove it.

I mean, if I say, "Moses#7226 is an alien", what can you do to prove I'm wrong?

[ChipMixer]

FatManTerra does make some compelling statements.
Ngl, @chipmixer's silence about the tweet is quite concerning.

What statements are compelling?

[TryNinja]

What statements are compelling?

About the profit model

You mean the pay-what-you-want model? That existed for some time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_what_you_want

Also, what FatManTerra fails to understand is that people do not need to click the donate button. From his thread:

Interestingly, ChipMixer released with a "pay what you want" model, which is uncommon for mixers. Users were not charged a mandatory fee for mixing and instead could donate to the website. As any tech entrepreneur will tell you, donations are usually not a viable business model.

If you have 0.0125 BTC, you just send the entire amount to CM (out of convenience + it's better for privacy) and they give you a 0.008 + 0.004 BTC chip. The change of 0.0005 BTC is automatically donated since there is no chip of this size. You just paid a 4% "fee"!

Then like I mentioned on my last post, he just assumes CM has zero revenue.

The story starts getting suspicious when you look at ChipMixer's expenditure. With zero revenue, ChipMixer paid out several large alpha tester bounties, bought ad space on the forum, and ran a large signature campaign, with expenses in the tens or hundreds of bitcoins.

Even I have received a few hundreds in donations from people who DM'ed questions about the mixer, so I highly doubt this is true.

[LoyceV]

If you have 0.0125 BTC, you just send the entire amount to CM (out of convenience + it's better for privacy) and they give you a 0.01 + 0.002 BTC chip.

Slight correction: You'll get a 0.008 and 0.004 BTC chip.

[dkbit98]

Also, what FatManTerra fails to understand is that people do not need to click the donate button. From his thread:

Did anyone check his twitter posts, other than his ChipMixer speculation theory?
He joined Twitter in May 2022, he has a lot of followers and he is exposing how crypto scams work, but how can you do that while investing in shit like Terrra.
In his own words, he invested heavily in the Terra ecosystem and lost 30% to 40% of his life savings in Terra collapse  
Now this guy is trying to educate us about ChipMixer, and he probably never used it in his life to see how it works.

[ChipMixer]

FatManTerra does make some compelling statements.
Ngl, @chipmixer's silence about the tweet is quite concerning.

What statements are compelling?

About the profit model

Can you at least quote them here?

As any tech entrepreneur will tell you, donations are usually not a viable business model.

Wikipedia got $162 million donations in 2021.
Donations are viable business model if your service is valuable.

ChipMixer paid out several large alpha tester bounties

Year 2017. About 10 mBTC each at BTC around $1000.

with expenses in the tens or hundreds of bitcoins

And in 2017 only most powerful governments in world would even have tens of bitcoins?

[DireWolfM14]

Also, what FatManTerra fails to understand is that people do not need to click the donate button. From his thread:

Did anyone check his twitter posts, other than his ChipMixer speculation theory?
He joined Twitter in May 2022, he has a lot of followers and he is exposing how crypto scams work, but how can you do that while investing in shit like Terrra.
In his own words, he invested heavily in the Terra ecosystem and lost 30% to 40% of his life savings in Terra collapse  
Now this guy is trying to educate us about ChipMixer, and he probably never used it in his life to see how it works.

I've had a couple of dealings with FatManTerra, he seems like a reasonable guy.  Obviously I don't agree with his claim about ChipMixer but as others have already said, there's no way to prove or disprove, so we'll have to leave it to each person to decide for themselves what their risk threshold is if they chose to use ChipMixer.  Having said that, I did respond to his thread on Twitter, against my better judgement.

As for his shitcoining fails, that's not relevant to this discussion.  I'm not trying to defend the guy, but he is entitled to his opinions.

[dkbit98]

I've had a couple of dealings with FatManTerra, he seems like a reasonable guy.

Doesn't look like anyone reasonable would invest his life savings into stupid shitcoin, and then trying to teach everyone about Bitcoin privacy.
I don't care what kind a deal you had with him, but I obviously need to check history of anyone who claims something about Bitcion and(or Chipmixer.
If Craig Wright say something I always have to go back to his Faketoshi history, and I don't find his words relevant, it's the same thing for this Fat guy.
So it has everything to do with Chipmixer because he was the one who mentioned it, I was not talking about Terra because I never used that crap.
Sure, he can have his own opinion, but it's not only his anymore when he shares that in public on twitter.

[FatManTerra]

This is VERY important to debunk because FatManTerra has an entire echo chamber on Twitter and also because he's telling them that "centralized mixers are very illegal".

I'll throw in a counter argument: privacy is a human right.

I'm confused; how is that incompatible with what I said? Laws aren't always right. I was merely pointing out that you can go to jail for running a mixer. I am pro-privacy and I support the existence of mixers, especially zero knowledge mixers such as Tornado Cash. The service you tout as a human right actually doing exactly the opposite might be a bitter pill to swallow, which is why I understand your reluctance to fully appreciate my position.

Implying that a mixer is bad because it's used by high-profile criminals is counter-intuitive. If anything, you probably want to use the best privacy tools, even though you have different goals, that also high-profile 'wanted' people, such as criminals or persecuted individuals use.

ChipMixer has been used by several high-profile criminals, such as the Ronin bridge hackers (from North Korea!) & the Binance hackers.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood this point. I wasn't stating that the mixer is bad because major criminals use it. I was drawing a comparison between Tornado Cash and ChipMixer, pointing out that the same echelon of major criminals use both, yet only one is being crucified.

Sure, he can have his own opinion, but it's not only his anymore when he shares that in public on twitter.

I'd much prefer if we looked at arguments atomically and on a meritocratic basis instead of relying on history or expertise. I've been around a while, but that doesn't matter. I was just sharing a theory that I personally found pretty compelling. It is also an opinion, not a fact. I'm not claiming to be an authority on the subject (I'm not one) nor am I asking anyone to believe me. Just wanted to open the matter up for discussion and hear others' thoughts on it. It looks like that goal has been achieved, as every major post I've seen about ChipMixer (like the FTX hacker-related one) has a bunch of comments either posting about the theory or linking to it.

(With all due respect, I was warned that by posting this thread I would be, and I quote, "mobbed by the DT circle jerk," so that combined with your obvious financial interest in defending ChipMixer leave me unsurprised by this collective response.)

ChipMixer's response has been weak as well, which further reinforces my belief in the theory, not that there was much doubt in my mind. (As a side note: while I think privacy is more important than mass surveillance, which prompted my post, I consider myself a friend of the US government, and I am happy to stop talking about ChipMixer if requested. I will not delete the original thread but I'll stop working on new ones related to mixers. You have my email.)

[n0nce]

Implying that a mixer is bad because it's used by high-profile criminals is counter-intuitive. If anything, you probably want to use the best privacy tools, even though you have different goals, that also high-profile 'wanted' people, such as criminals or persecuted individuals use.

ChipMixer has been used by several high-profile criminals, such as the Ronin bridge hackers (from North Korea!) & the Binance hackers.

Sorry, I think you misunderstood this point. I wasn't stating that the mixer is bad because major criminals use it. I was drawing a comparison between Tornado Cash and ChipMixer, pointing out that the same echelon of major criminals use both, yet only one is being crucified.

I see; well, of course your explanation is just one of multiple possible reasons why Tornado was busted and ChipMixer wasn't.

(With all due respect, I was warned that by posting this thread I would be, and I quote, "mobbed by the DT circle jerk," so that combined with your obvious financial interest in defending ChipMixer leave me unsurprised by this collective response.)

Was this comment made on Twitter? Because whenever I check Twitter, I am remembered how much more civil, helpful and knowledgeable the Bitcoin community on Bitcointalk actually is. The forum format and reputation system obviously helps to find and differentiate good content from poor content. The tone can be harsh sometimes, but sometimes the truth is harsh, so there's that.

Also, not everybody is the same. Some people may 'mob' you (thick skin! ), others won't - this has nothing to do with Default Trust.

ChipMixer's response has been weak as well, which further reinforces my belief in the theory, not that there was much doubt in my mind.

What could they say to make you think otherwise, though? It's neither possible to prove for anyone here that you or I are or are not state actors, either, right?

[dkbit98]

I'd much prefer if we looked at arguments atomically and on a meritocratic basis instead of relying on history or expertise. I've been around a while, but that doesn't matter. I was just sharing a theory that I personally found pretty compelling. It is also an opinion, not a fact. I'm not claiming to be an authority on the subject (I'm not one) nor am I asking anyone to believe me.

You are not asking anyone, but you are obviously seeking attention with all your posts, that is probably some mental issues you have after losing big part of your wealth investing in shitcoin scam.
Sorry about that, and I hope you find help you need, but you won't find that help on twitter  

With all due respect, I was warned that by posting this thread I would be, and I quote, "mobbed by the DT circle jerk," so that combined with your obvious financial interest in defending ChipMixer leave me unsurprised by this collective response.

I am not defending or attacking anyone, and comparing bitcointalk with your twitter natural habitat is really silly.
You can think whatever you want, and I can also think that you are a government agent or circus clown, that doesn't mean I am right.
Financial interest would be if I invested 30% to 40% of my life savings in ChipMixer... like some people did in some ''other things''...

ChipMixer's response has been weak as well, which further reinforces my belief in the theory, not that there was much doubt in my mind. (As a side note: while I think privacy is more important than mass surveillance, which prompted my post, I consider myself a friend of the US government, and I am happy to stop talking about ChipMixer if requested. I will not delete the original thread but I'll stop working on new ones related to mixers. You have my email.)

Nobody ever asked you to delete anything dude, do as you like.... and  yes, ChimpMixer agents are soon coming to nock on your door, get ready...
Sorry you didn't get all the attention you wanted  

[DireWolfM14]

I was drawing a comparison between Tornado Cash and ChipMixer, pointing out that the same echelon of major criminals use both, yet only one is being crucified.
~
ChipMixer's response has been weak as well...

You didn't seem to make any correlation between these two statements, but ironically they're both in the same post.  Short of exposing his true identity I don't know what ChipMixer (the individual) can do to prove to you he's not conducting a NSA sting.  It's likely the reason that Tornado was crucified is because the developers were publicly known, and ChipMixer skates along because they are not.

It's certainly not provable that ChipMixer is or isn't US.gov honeypot, and the operator's anonymity can be applied as evidence in either argument.  What is known is that criminals use ChipMixer.  If they were tracked by the government due to their use of ChipMixer, that evidence would have been used to prosecute them.  Since ChipMixer has been around for 5 years, and I don't know of any incident where use of ChipMixer has been used to prosecute anyone, I can claim that as evidence they are not a honeypot.

Maybe the government is playing the long con.  Maybe they're careful to not expose their "source" by eliminating data they've obtained as evidence.  Or, maybe ChipMixer is run by an anonymous individual who's been extremely careful to not expose himself to arrest.

Nonetheless, the use of a centralized service will not provide anyone with anonymity.  For those of us who use mixing services for privacy, ChipMixer has been a safe and reliable provider regardless of who's behind it.

[ChipMixer]

I am pro-privacy and I support the existence of mixers

And yet you organize mob to close this one because other was closed down? Similar to invading another country to 'end all wars'.

I consider myself a friend of the US government, and I am happy to stop talking about ChipMixer if requested.

No. Promote it. Write good articles. Praise it.

[FatManTerra]

What could they say to make you think otherwise, though? It's neither possible to prove for anyone here that you or I are or are not state actors, either, right?

Fair question. I'm not entirely sure. Maybe something like "we are not related to or employed by any world government, our extremely high start-up capital came from XYZ source, we made X in donations this year, we think we have never been investigated or indicted or admonished by LE because of XYZ..." Doesn't really matter, it's just a theory anyway.

You are not asking anyone, but you are obviously seeking attention with all your posts, that is probably some mental issues you have after losing big part of your wealth investing in shitcoin scam.
Sorry about that, and I hope you find help you need, but you won't find that help on twitter  
Sorry you didn't get all the attention you wanted  

I find this confusing and unnecessarily aggressive. I'm not sure how or what I lost is relevant - we're discussing a mixer; let's keep it on-topic if possible. FWIW, I wish from the bottom of my heart that I got much less attention, because at times it can be overwhelming. For example, when I initially posted the ChipMixer thread, I didn't at all expect it to blow up across Twitter, be picked up by news outlets, or for me to be contacted by a lawyer looking for expert witnesses for a separate bitcoin mixer legal case.

I can't help but notice that you, too, are being paid by ChipMixer. This doesn't mean your points are useless, but you could at least tone down the ad hominems & emotionally defensive behaviour. It comes across as paid shill-y, even though it may well not be.

It's likely the reason that Tornado was crucified is because the developers were publicly known, and ChipMixer skates along because they are not.

The Tornado Cash contract itself is under OFAC sanctions. Any sort of interaction with the mixer is now a legal risk. Similar measures could have been put in place for known ChipMixer deposits given their similar user profile (not condoning this, just pointing it out), but the government really doesn't seem to care, which was one of my points. The contract itself can't be doxed.

Since ChipMixer has been around for 5 years, and I don't know of any incident where use of ChipMixer has been used to prosecute anyone, I can claim that as evidence they are not a honeypot.

The way these things normally work is, to keep the honeypot going, they make up a plausible excuse for how they found the criminal based on a link they found later, thus they don't have to disclose the ace up their sleeve.

To be 100% clear, this theory (very explicitly labelled as such for the avoidance of doubt) is solely my personal opinion, posted on my personal Twitter account, and I don't mean to offend ChipMixer, their users, or their advertisers. I do not expect ChipMixer to prove anything (you can't prove a negative anyway). To me (again, in my personal opinion), the story stacks up perfectly, and I've tried to explain my reasoning in the thread as clearly as I can, but it remains an opinion and you are all obviously welcome to have your own. Sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused to anyone in the thread.

[FatManTerra]

And yet you organize mob to close this one because other was closed down? Similar to invading another country to 'end all wars'.

Come on... Sorry, but this is nonsense. What mob have I organized? When have I advocated for ChipMixer to be "closed down"? You are just making stuff up. It makes no sense too, because as per my theory, the government wouldn't shut ChipMixer down anyway.

No. Promote it. Write good articles. Praise it.

Depends, how many of those advertising bitcoins are left in the budget?

For real though, DW makes a good point in that you can still gain privacy from the outside world if you're a small-time mixer user not engaging in serious crime. Just remember that someone sees everything and you don't know who that someone is. The signs all point to one answer. (Again, no offence. Either way, you've made a tool that's useful to many.)

[BlackHatCoiner]

For real though, DW makes a good point in that you can still gain privacy from the outside world if you're a small-time mixer user not engaging in serious crime.

Have you read about stolen bitcoins in the past few years? There was even a $40m worth of bitcoin theft with Binance (about 4,000 BTC), and AFAIK they used this service to obfuscate themselves. They aren't caught yet. Maybe those that do get caught, don't use it properly.

[FatManTerra]

If ChipMixer is indeed a honeypot, then the data they gather wouldn't be used to catch small or even medium-sized criminals. It's about getting a few big fish - the robberies that are in the hundreds of millions. If every $20m or $40m hack was pursued using privileged data, people would catch on pretty fast and the honeypot would become worthless.

May I request that future questions or concerns about the theory be directed to me via DM either here or on Twitter? While I have thought this through carefully and likely have explanations for all of your concerns or rebuttals, I'd prefer not to turn this thread into a back and forth about ChipMixer being a honeypot, because ultimately it's just a theory and it probably shouldn't be discussed at length in their official business thread.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If ChipMixer is indeed a honeypot, then the data they gather wouldn't be used to catch small or even medium-sized criminals.

I'm afraid that the $40m hack must have been the biggest theft with ChipMixer involved. There have been more hacks with smaller damages, and those got caught. Seems to me rather user's fault than the service's trustworthiness.

May I request that future questions or concerns about the theory be directed to me via DM either here or on Twitter?

Or just create a new thread in here, wherein you describe your concerns about ChipMixer being a honeypot. I recently had a concern too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5423124.msg61348127#msg61348127