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Author Topic: Primedice.com | Creators of Dicing 🎲 | 24 Billion Bets | 112+ BTC Jackpot!  (Read 1884056 times)
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June 05, 2013, 10:25:25 AM
 #761

Currently, the server knows the result if the user does not change the client seed. As something like 99% of users don't even know you can do that, this game is not provably fair. Not saying that it's cheating, but it's not provably fair.

It would literally take 1 line of code. Not securely random, but random enough as the client seed:

var clientSeed = Math.random();

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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. Hybrid server-assisted clients like Electrum get a lot of their network information from centralized servers, but they also check the server's results using blockchain header data. This is perhaps somewhat more secure than either server-assisted clients or header-only clients.
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June 05, 2013, 10:26:19 AM
 #762

Currently, the server knows the result if the user does not change the client seed. As something like 99% of users don't even know you can do that, this game is not provably fair. Not saying that it's cheating, but it's not provably fair.

It would literally take 1 line of code. Not securely random, but random enough as the client seed:

var clientSeed = Math.random();

1 line of code to fix or to cheat?
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June 05, 2013, 10:26:57 AM
 #763

I use different addresses each time so I don't have a list of them all  Undecided

I withdraw to my coinlenders.com account so that changes every deposit.

this series of rolls was under:

https://primedice.com/bets.php?user=fcfeb752748cd29521e174ef53147193&limit=200

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June 05, 2013, 10:27:13 AM
 #764

To make it really provably fair.

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June 05, 2013, 10:28:34 AM
 #765

To make it really provably fair.
It seems to me I have a lost a considerable amount of coin to a game which appears to be pre-determined.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

That's shocking.

I shall not use PrimeDice.com again

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June 05, 2013, 10:29:16 AM
 #766

Another 9 losses out of 10.

I'm beginning to think PrimeDice has it in for me.  Undecided

Code:
1 minute ago 50.5 2 0.30000000 Lose 48.33
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.21915206 Lose 44.71
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Win 64.61
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 45.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 23.78
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 5.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 32.74
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 40.24
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 46.72
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 36.38
this is why i preferred with coinroll due to this reason

prepared server-roll seed = doom

wait, what, PREPARED?

It's PRE_ROLLED?

are you fucking joking me?

I've lost over 10BTC on this site and it's not mentioned anywhere it's pre rolled?!
i wouldn't say its 'PRE-ROLLED' to be exact, but this is what bugs me a bit

Quote
Server seed for next roll:
ee69b2a8d6dec664ee0d1fc7e

I'll stick to coinroll for now. hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce) seems more legit
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June 05, 2013, 10:29:57 AM
 #767

To make it really provably fair.

But wouldn't the server still know the client seed beforehand? I'd think you would have to allow the user/client to be the one to enter it?
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June 05, 2013, 10:31:18 AM
 #768

Another 9 losses out of 10.

I'm beginning to think PrimeDice has it in for me.  Undecided

Code:
1 minute ago 50.5 2 0.30000000 Lose 48.33
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.21915206 Lose 44.71
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Win 64.61
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 45.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 23.78
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 5.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 32.74
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 40.24
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 46.72
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 36.38
this is why i preferred with coinroll due to this reason

prepared server-roll seed = doom

wait, what, PREPARED?

It's PRE_ROLLED?

are you fucking joking me?

I've lost over 10BTC on this site and it's not mentioned anywhere it's pre rolled?!
i wouldn't say its 'PRE-ROLLED' to be exact, but this is what bugs me a bit

Quote
Server seed for next roll:
ee69b2a8d6dec664ee0d1fc7e

I'll stick to coinroll for now. hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce) seems more legit

Correct me if I'm wrong, but coinroll knows the secret, knows the last deposit ID, what's stopping them from assigning a nonce that gives them a win? (Shoot me down if I'm missing a vital concept)
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June 05, 2013, 10:31:21 AM
 #769

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent. (though casinò owner can't predict when a customer will withdraw, so even if it want's to manipulate rolls  in a non obvious way to profit it'll be tricky). (explained thx)
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June 05, 2013, 10:31:58 AM
 #770

To make it really provably fair.

But wouldn't the server still know the client seed beforehand? I'd think you would have to allow the user/client to be the one to enter it?

No.

The seed would be determined by the client using client JS. The server will not know.

This is how SatoshiDICE, Bitzino works. The player supplies a TXID (fun fact: TXIDs are just hashes, and are pretty much random), or the client JS generates a random seed.

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June 05, 2013, 10:33:15 AM
 #771

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

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June 05, 2013, 10:34:47 AM
 #772

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there). (explained thx)
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June 05, 2013, 10:36:09 AM
 #773

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there).

Huh? You can change your client seed now.

The client cannot exploit it, he does not know the server seed (only the hash of it).

See this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161236.0

Provably fair means:

1. Player can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.
2. Casino can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.

3. Player can prove the casino did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result
4. Casino can prove the player did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result

Currently, 3 is not true for PrimeDice.com as PrimeDice knows what each roll would be assuming default client seed. Making the default client seed generated by the client (rather than the server) would make it provably fair.

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June 05, 2013, 10:36:18 AM
 #774

So how does "PrimeDice" make itself able to use "Provably Fair"

this isn't sour grapes btw. I've lost 10BTC+ as this thread knows  Tongue

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June 05, 2013, 10:36:52 AM
 #775

I still think the easiest way to do this would to be simply allowing the user to choose a client seed AFTER being assigned a server seed. That also allows simple minds (Like myself heh) the ability to easily understand & comprehend the concept. The whole JS assigning a client seed transcends me lol
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June 05, 2013, 10:38:10 AM
 #776

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

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June 05, 2013, 10:39:07 AM
 #777

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.
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June 05, 2013, 10:39:52 AM
 #778

So how does "PrimeDice" make itself able to use "Provably Fair"

this isn't sour grapes btw. I've lost 10BTC+ as this thread knows  Tongue
I could use some of those 10BTC to pay up for my car deposit lol

no seriously i would do that tho  Tongue
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June 05, 2013, 10:42:20 AM
 #779

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.
again, i cant explain much on that, but hey at least the nonces is already fixed with an increment of 1 on every bet, unlike primedice
Quote
Each bet can be verified using the day's secret and the last deposit's TXID. To produce a stream of numbers a nonce is appended which is incremented by 1 on every bet. The nonce is reset to 0 on every deposit.

The lucky number is computed by the first 4 hex digits of hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce)
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June 05, 2013, 10:42:54 AM
 #780

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there).

Huh? You can change your client seed now.

The client cannot exploit it, he does not know the server seed (only the hash of it).

See this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161236.0

Provably fair means:

1. Player can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.
2. Casino can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.

3. Player can prove the casino did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result
4. Casino can prove the player did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result

Currently, 3 is not true for PrimeDice.com as PrimeDice knows what each roll would be assuming default client seed. Making the default client seed generated by the client (rather than the server) would make it provably fair.

Yes, you are right. I'm pretty new to the concept, thx for the good explanation (was missing the "client doesn't know server seed, only the hash of it Wink ).
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