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Author Topic: Primedice.com | Since 2013 | Longest Running Crypto Casino | 113 BTC Jackpot!  (Read 1983383 times)
Zaih
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June 05, 2013, 10:29:57 AM
 #761

To make it really provably fair.

But wouldn't the server still know the client seed beforehand? I'd think you would have to allow the user/client to be the one to enter it?
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Zaih
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June 05, 2013, 10:31:18 AM
 #762

Another 9 losses out of 10.

I'm beginning to think PrimeDice has it in for me.  Undecided

Code:
1 minute ago 50.5 2 0.30000000 Lose 48.33
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.21915206 Lose 44.71
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Win 64.61
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 45.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 23.78
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 5.85
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 32.74
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 40.24
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 46.72
2 minutes ago 50.5 2 0.10000000 Lose 36.38
this is why i preferred with coinroll due to this reason

prepared server-roll seed = doom

wait, what, PREPARED?

It's PRE_ROLLED?

are you fucking joking me?

I've lost over 10BTC on this site and it's not mentioned anywhere it's pre rolled?!
i wouldn't say its 'PRE-ROLLED' to be exact, but this is what bugs me a bit

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Server seed for next roll:
ee69b2a8d6dec664ee0d1fc7e

I'll stick to coinroll for now. hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce) seems more legit

Correct me if I'm wrong, but coinroll knows the secret, knows the last deposit ID, what's stopping them from assigning a nonce that gives them a win? (Shoot me down if I'm missing a vital concept)
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June 05, 2013, 10:31:21 AM
Last edit: June 05, 2013, 10:44:53 AM by ghibly79
 #763

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent. (though casinò owner can't predict when a customer will withdraw, so even if it want's to manipulate rolls  in a non obvious way to profit it'll be tricky). (explained thx)
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June 05, 2013, 10:31:58 AM
 #764

To make it really provably fair.

But wouldn't the server still know the client seed beforehand? I'd think you would have to allow the user/client to be the one to enter it?

No.

The seed would be determined by the client using client JS. The server will not know.

This is how SatoshiDICE, Bitzino works. The player supplies a TXID (fun fact: TXIDs are just hashes, and are pretty much random), or the client JS generates a random seed.
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June 05, 2013, 10:33:15 AM
 #765

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.
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June 05, 2013, 10:34:47 AM
Last edit: June 05, 2013, 10:45:16 AM by ghibly79
 #766

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there). (explained thx)
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June 05, 2013, 10:36:09 AM
 #767

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there).

Huh? You can change your client seed now.

The client cannot exploit it, he does not know the server seed (only the hash of it).

See this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161236.0

Provably fair means:

1. Player can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.
2. Casino can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.

3. Player can prove the casino did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result
4. Casino can prove the player did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result

Currently, 3 is not true for PrimeDice.com as PrimeDice knows what each roll would be assuming default client seed. Making the default client seed generated by the client (rather than the server) would make it provably fair.
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June 05, 2013, 10:36:18 AM
 #768

So how does "PrimeDice" make itself able to use "Provably Fair"

this isn't sour grapes btw. I've lost 10BTC+ as this thread knows  Tongue

Tips BTC --> 1BS2sYvy3T1cpNhie6CVFMcUrHa84a8mPa <-- Thanks! || Tips [LTC] --> LaytYJNCha7z7zcws5a2o2GWWjvWfDCGkr <--
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June 05, 2013, 10:36:52 AM
 #769

I still think the easiest way to do this would to be simply allowing the user to choose a client seed AFTER being assigned a server seed. That also allows simple minds (Like myself heh) the ability to easily understand & comprehend the concept. The whole JS assigning a client seed transcends me lol
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June 05, 2013, 10:38:10 AM
 #770

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

Tips BTC --> 1BS2sYvy3T1cpNhie6CVFMcUrHa84a8mPa <-- Thanks! || Tips [LTC] --> LaytYJNCha7z7zcws5a2o2GWWjvWfDCGkr <--
Zaih
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June 05, 2013, 10:39:07 AM
 #771

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.
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June 05, 2013, 10:39:52 AM
 #772

So how does "PrimeDice" make itself able to use "Provably Fair"

this isn't sour grapes btw. I've lost 10BTC+ as this thread knows  Tongue
I could use some of those 10BTC to pay up for my car deposit lol

no seriously i would do that tho  Tongue
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June 05, 2013, 10:42:20 AM
 #773

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.
again, i cant explain much on that, but hey at least the nonces is already fixed with an increment of 1 on every bet, unlike primedice
Quote
Each bet can be verified using the day's secret and the last deposit's TXID. To produce a stream of numbers a nonce is appended which is incremented by 1 on every bet. The nonce is reset to 0 on every deposit.

The lucky number is computed by the first 4 hex digits of hmac_sha512(secret, lastdeposittxid:nonce)
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June 05, 2013, 10:42:54 AM
 #774

That line won't make it any more "provably" fair than it is now: all seeds can potentially be manipulated internally by the server (or the dice outcome can be totally indipendent from any seed for that matter). You can never know for sure what code is running internally, there's always trust involved to some extent.

Not really. That line will make it provably fair if it's on the client, and you can prove if the roll was not determined using your client seed + server seed. Hence the provable prat.

On the client it'll be exploitable by the user (hard to do but the risk is there).

Huh? You can change your client seed now.

The client cannot exploit it, he does not know the server seed (only the hash of it).

See this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=161236.0

Provably fair means:

1. Player can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.
2. Casino can directly influence the results, but not know the end result.

3. Player can prove the casino did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result
4. Casino can prove the player did not influence the result AFTER knowing the end result

Currently, 3 is not true for PrimeDice.com as PrimeDice knows what each roll would be assuming default client seed. Making the default client seed generated by the client (rather than the server) would make it provably fair.

Yes, you are right. I'm pretty new to the concept, thx for the good explanation (was missing the "client doesn't know server seed, only the hash of it Wink ).
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June 05, 2013, 10:44:27 AM
 #775

I still think the easiest way to do this would to be simply allowing the user to choose a client seed AFTER being assigned a server seed. That also allows simple minds (Like myself heh) the ability to easily understand & comprehend the concept. The whole JS assigning a client seed transcends me lol
It doesn't matter what seed you choose. As long as the server does not know it, it's OK.

Quote
I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.

Easy. It uses [txid] + nonce. The TXID is supplied by the player. The server seed is updated once a day, and is global. So while the server *can* know next results in advance, it cannot change it after knowing the results (see Provably Fair rule #3). Secrets has being generated until 2023, so Coinroll.it is provably fair.
Zaih
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June 05, 2013, 10:48:51 AM
 #776

I still think the easiest way to do this would to be simply allowing the user to choose a client seed AFTER being assigned a server seed. That also allows simple minds (Like myself heh) the ability to easily understand & comprehend the concept. The whole JS assigning a client seed transcends me lol
It doesn't matter what seed you choose. As long as the server does not know it, it's OK.

Quote
I'm still waiting on someone with more knowledge to explain how CoinRoll's use of nonces make it impossible for the server to know what the next roll is going to be.

Easy. It uses [txid] + nonce. The TXID is supplied by the player. The server seed is updated once a day, and is global. So while the server *can* know next results in advance, it cannot change it after knowing the results (see Provably Fair rule #3). Secrets has being generated until 2023, so Coinroll.it is provably fair.

Oh I get ya now. Fair enough.
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June 05, 2013, 10:49:05 AM
 #777

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

We are not saying Stunna cheated you (would still be very hard even if he wanted: he can't know when you withdraw. You can withdraw when you are winning and he cannot simply cheat to make customers always lose or it'll be evident Grin).
TradeFortress only pointed out that Primedice system can be improved.
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June 05, 2013, 10:51:35 AM
 #778

Okay. There goes my 0.1 ... where's my bitcoin supplier?

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June 05, 2013, 10:53:48 AM
 #779

Okay. There goes my 0.1 ... where's my bitcoin supplier?

I can sell you some at Gox+8.5% but highly doubt you'll be interested Wink
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June 05, 2013, 10:54:30 AM
 #780

Quite Frankly had I have known that I would not have bet on PrimeDice.

I would have just stuck to coinroll.it

We are not saying Stunna cheated you (would still be very hard even if he wanted: he can't know when you withdraw. You can withdraw when you are winning and he cannot simply cheat to make customers always lose or it'll be evident Grin).
TradeFortress only pointed out that Primedice system can be improved.

More or less my exact point. I don't see why he'd constantly let people cash out 10+ Bitcoins if he could just take all their balance. And in extension, why would he then be rigging 0.1 bets?

I really think Stunna needs to fix it up though ASAP, doubt is a VERY powerful thing  Angry
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