[Group Buy]12 KNCminer Jupiter's 15 Sold [Closed] Jupiter Pool

[equipoise]

...snip...
- Until now, these are the only expenses paid from the mining income: Hosting fee twice, management fee and penalty for paying hosting fee late. The programmer has not been paid for his work(wasn't finished).
- On Monday 20th of January, the day after Soniq has reported the outcome of all corrections, we can expect a 50% dividend payment of all dividend due by January 19th.
- Monday 27th of January, the day after I have reported the outcome of the second book check, we can expect the remainder of the 50% dividend payment due by January 19th.
- From Sunday 2nd of February weekly dividend payments will be done.

Soniq was very cooperative and wants to get this behind us. If he does what he promised, it will happen.

And If I understand correctly February 2nd will include the dividends of January 20th to Feb 2nd?

The answer to that question is in the italic part above. But I will try to make it even more clear:

Code:

       When   What
20-Jan-2014   50% of dividend due on 19-Jan-2014 (taking into account all corrections from the start of the GB till 19-Jan-2014)
27-Jan-2014   remaining 50% of dividend due on 19-Jan-2014(including corrections if I find errors)
02-Feb-2014   100% of dividend due on 01-Feb-2014 (so dividend accumulated until 01-Feb-2014 minus dividend already paid)
09-Feb-2014   100% of dividend due on 08-Feb-2014 (dividend accumulated until 08-Feb-2014 minus dividend already paid)
16-Feb-2014   100% of dividend due on 15-Feb-2014 (dividend accumulated until 15-Feb-2014 minus dividend already paid)
And from here on every week on the same day, the same event as above. Weekly payment of dividend.

Every time Soniq has one day to calculate the dividend and do the payment.

I know the scheme above is lenghty in time, but I think we all prefer correct and fair dividends compares to a rush job that could cause even more errors and anger.

Soniq agreed to the scheme above.

If he can't do a payment on one of the preset dates(because of holidays, sickness,....) he needs to post a message in this thread and mention the date the dividend will be calculated and paid.

Didn't we missed the 27-Jan-2014 due date? Any updates?

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[MilkyLep]

It seems soniq has fallen off the wayside so early in the re-commitment of his group buy.

Perhaps Ben has spoken to him recently and received the additional information needed to complete the audit(s).

[Bitbuy]

Please, Soniq, communicate...SOMETHING.
Don't let the efforts of Ben and the other groupbuy members go to waste.

[soniq]

Hosting payment is Jan 31, I did not make the Jan 27 th payment to allow for a possible large  exchange rate change for next hosting payment on Jan 31.  Next  dividend payment will be on Jan 31 or Feb 01 depending on agibby schedule.

The Gigapool test went to the  same mining address Eligius is using now.  This can be confirmed by trans ids, that is why I posted that the test was going on.

Late penalty  fees are  for members who did not pay their required hosting fee on time. This did not apply to anyone with their  shares on Bitfunder  or paid their required hosting fees on time.

The books and wallets are balanced now, I am just waiting for last hosting payment to clear up the outstanding mining income.

[Bitbuy]

Hosting payment is Jan 31, I did not make the Jan 27 th payment to allow for a possible large  exchange rate change for next hosting payment on Jan 31.  Next  dividend payment will be on Jan 31 or Feb 01 depending on agibby schedule.

The Gigapool test went to the  same mining address Eligius is using now.  This can be confirmed by trans ids, that is why I posted that the test was going on.

Late penalty  fees are  for members who did not pay their required hosting fee on time. This did not apply to anyone with their  shares on Bitfunder  or paid their required hosting fees on time.

The books and wallets are balanced now, I am just waiting for last hosting payment to clear up the outstanding mining income.

Thank you.

[BenTuras]

Hosting payment is Jan 31, I did not make the Jan 27 th payment to allow for a possible large  exchange rate change for next hosting payment on Jan 31.  Next  dividend payment will be on Jan 31 or Feb 01 depending on agibby schedule.

We need more details about what you are doing.
How can we validate what you are doing and know that the GB is performing well if you don't give us numbers.

The Gigapool test went to the  same mining address Eligius is using now. 
This can be confirmed by trans ids, that is why I posted that the test was going on.

Who has validated the mining income on Gigapool and Bitminter ?
Has someone seen a dated screenshot of the account webpages ?
Validating by looking at transactions is not enough.
There is considerable doubt about the start of the mining, yet you give us little to be convinced everything went honest and you didn't mine on another pool before mining on Gigapool, Eligius and Bitminter.

Late penalty  fees are  for members who did not pay their required hosting fee on time. This did not apply to anyone with their  shares on Bitfunder  or paid their required hosting fees on time.

OK, and what happened to the penalties ? I can see that you deducted them from what you paid the participant paying late, but that spreadsheet is one big mess of multiple dividend payments to all(?) the participants.
AND STILL YOU KEEP ON USING THAT SPREADSHEET. STOP USING IT, GO FOR THE SIMPLE VERSION I MADE, SO WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON.

The books and wallets are balanced now, I am just waiting for last hosting payment to clear up the outstanding mining income.

Soniq, you only answered part of my questions of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226319.msg4760710#msg4760710
How can the books be balanced if it's so clear that some of the participants never got their refund for the share price/jupiter purchase price difference ?

Why is it so hard to answer all the questions, show that you are honest and want to have the history validated and left behind.
Give us spreadsheets that we can understand, that we can validate, that contains formulas and not just values.
You are making thousands of dollars on these group buys, the least you can do is earn them in an honest way.

Also, you are going to make corrections due to the mistake you made, paying too much dividend.
How can we validate the corrections if the history isn't validated yet?

You should hand over the export of your walllet, just like you did in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtH6ASvoAExHdHRmNnY1Qm9xTWM1aHhyU09sdVRsNFE&usp=drive_web&pli=1#gid=0 on the Balance sheet for all the GB payments. That, together with screen shots of pool webpages, will be the only way that I can validate the books for 99% That remaining last percent will be that we have to trust you not having a second wallet receiving any mining income.

I am getting tired of all the time I spent on this and hardly see any progress on your side Soniq.

[stomp]

Hosting payment is Jan 31, I did not make the Jan 27 th payment to allow for a possible large  exchange rate change for next hosting payment on Jan 31.  Next  dividend payment will be on Jan 31 or Feb 01 depending on agibby schedule.

We need more details about what you are doing.
How can we validate what you are doing and know that the GB is performing well if you don't give us numbers.

The Gigapool test went to the  same mining address Eligius is using now. 
This can be confirmed by trans ids, that is why I posted that the test was going on.

Who has validated the mining income on Gigapool and Bitminter ?
Has someone seen a dated screenshot of the account webpages ?
Validating by looking at transactions is not enough.
There is considerable doubt about the start of the mining, yet you give us little to be convinced everything went honest and you didn't mine on another pool before mining on Gigapool, Eligius and Bitminter.

Late penalty  fees are  for members who did not pay their required hosting fee on time. This did not apply to anyone with their  shares on Bitfunder  or paid their required hosting fees on time.

OK, and what happened to the penalties ? I can see that you deducted them from what you paid the participant paying late, but that spreadsheet is one big mess of multiple dividend payments to all(?) the participants.
AND STILL YOU KEEP ON USING THAT SPREADSHEET. STOP USING IT, GO FOR THE SIMPLE VERSION I MADE, SO WE CAN ALL UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON.

The books and wallets are balanced now, I am just waiting for last hosting payment to clear up the outstanding mining income.

Soniq, you only answered part of my questions of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226319.msg4760710#msg4760710
How can the books be balanced if it's so clear that some of the participants never got their refund for the share price/jupiter purchase price difference ?

Why is it so hard to answer all the questions, show that you are honest and want to have the history validated and left behind.
Give us spreadsheets that we can understand, that we can validate, that contains formulas and not just values.
You are making thousands of dollars on these group buys, the least you can do is earn them in an honest way.

Also, you are going to make corrections due to the mistake you made, paying too much dividend.
How can we validate the corrections if the history isn't validated yet?

You should hand over the export of your walllet, just like you did in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtH6ASvoAExHdHRmNnY1Qm9xTWM1aHhyU09sdVRsNFE&usp=drive_web&pli=1#gid=0 on the Balance sheet for all the GB payments. That, together with screen shots of pool webpages, will be the only way that I can validate the books for 99% That remaining last percent will be that we have to trust you not having a second wallet receiving any mining income.

I am getting tired of all the time I spent on this and hardly see any progress on your side Soniq.

this

[dutu]

The Gigapool test went to the  same mining address Eligius is using now.  This can be confirmed by trans ids, that is why I posted that the test was going on.

Soniq, my question was "Would you please provide amount of bitcoin mined at Gigapool and receiving address"

You have answered half of it, can you answer the other half "amount of bitcoin mined at Gigapool".
We were expecting to see this info in the balance sheet, but it's not.

If a proper balance sheet is difficult to make, at least please answer the questions from GB members. We are spending time to clear up and understand the mess, while you are taking management fees from all of us.

[miner_btc]

I'm with Ben on this. WTF is going on? Soniq you are making 2% of this whole thing to start with, and have shown precious little effort in proving that you are not ripping us all off. Give us information we can verify and do it quickly.

[soniq]

Just made last hosting payment ef47941b789fb5d6dd1525f7365ead66869d344d919610fc07b0a133664030ae

Contacted agibby and will make a dividend payment as soon as he is able, hopefully today or tomorrow.

[dutu]

Just made last hosting payment ef47941b789fb5d6dd1525f7365ead66869d344d919610fc07b0a133664030ae

Contacted agibby and will make a dividend payment as soon as he is able, hopefully today or tomorrow.

Soniq, are your not reading the messages posted on this forum or you have just decided to ignore all of us?

[BenTuras]

Soniq, are your not reading the messages posted on this forum or you have just decided to ignore all of us?

Soniq in Skype: "I am creating a long psot to all you questions, it will be done shortly"

[soniq]

In regards to all the other questions

I received access to KNC portal on Oct 09, I will upload a screenshot of the email later. This GB has over a 100+ different members in just about every time zone in the world. I was being examined very closely at the very beginning when KNC delivered the miners.

 Here is the history of Skype chat the minute the email from KNC arrived

[10/9/2013 9:05:03 AM] guess the eamil from KnC was premature, as no email to signal the start of mining or access to panel
[10/9/2013 9:05:24 AM] Joseph Thoenissen: https://portal.kncminer.com/
[10/9/2013 9:06:09 AM] Larry/soniq: thats good news, see if i can login with my KnC user

Also allowed a member of GB temp access to portal to confirm number of miners and to confirm technical issues that KNC was having. These issues were not unique to me as lots of KNC customers were posting in KNC forum about same issues.

The Skype chat was very active and everyone  on there knew to the minute almost when I received portal access, which was Oct 09.  And as this post suggests Jupiters  didnt reach  full mining capacity till Oct 11. https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-49

That is why I created this spreadsheet  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtH6ASvoAExHdF9IcFh3QmQ2dEt4Zk5qT3lRUDFDTVE&usp=drive_web&pli=1#gid=24   This spreadsheet was created by me and and member of this group buy.  And the dates on the spreadsheet correspond to to portal access and full hashing rates attained.

As far as miner transparency you can go this address http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1EN3EqqQfqq484WNATFAMA13VXpJuJNv5c  and if you scroll across the top it shows you each individual miner, their individual stats and here  https://bitminter.com/livestats/big  user soniq (their are no individual stats at Bitminter, but you can divide total hashrate there by 500 and will give you number of Jupiters) and the total miners is always 26 miners. Sometime the ratio has changed over the life of the GB, ie  13 at Eligius, 13 at Bitminter or 15 at Eligius and 11 at Bitminter.  Again these stats are available 24/7 for the life of the GB and I have over 100+ members in every time zone in the world watching at all times.  I dont know how it can be any more transparent than that?

Please take in account that the Jupiters do lose a chip or go down completely temporarily effecting the total hashing rate. KNC response times to these hardware issues varies.  

As far as you question about gigapool, at the beginning of the GB, Oct 14 only 5 days after receiving the Jupiters almost every GB member was watching very intently as there had not even been a dividend payment made yet. There was concerns about getting best hashing rate for the Jupiters and some members suggested trying different pools.  I tested Gigapool, and  posted to the forum I was doing so, So all the members could account for the 26 mining Jupiters.  I am looking for the transactions now.

Skype chat history regarding Gigapool

[10/13/2013 11:07:26 PM] Larry/soniq: https://mineb.tc/  have two Jupiters here
[10/13/2013 11:07:38 PM] Larry/soniq: no public access how ever
[10/13/2013 11:08:09 PM | Edited 11:08:26 PM] Larry/soniq: got them moved before portal collasped
[10/13/2013 11:08:45 PM] Larry/soniq: got to get sleep
[10/13/2013 11:08:55 PM] Larry/soniq: cat typoe
[10/13/2013 11:09:10 PM] Joseph Thoenissen: sweet dreams
[10/13/2013 11:09:15 PM] Larry/soniq: 996.31Gh/s
[10/13/2013 11:09:25 PM] Larry/soniq: for two Jupiters at other pool
[10/13/2013 11:11:55 PM] Larry/soniq: all miners at Eligius working at <100 GH/s

So after over 100+ members watching mining for over 4 months there has not been one instance of anyone asking where are all the miners?

The spreadsheets and ledgers for this GB  have been verified by a forensic scientist with the Norwegian police and two software engineers. All of which are members of the GB as well.  If there were any discrepancies, they would have been the first to blow the whistle and ask questions about what was going on.  I realize there is a ton of data, and takes a long time to go through it all. But me and three other GB members have spent weeks of time and thousands of dollars to make sure everything balances.

There is one member who had been overpaid, but there are still more dividends to be paid and it should balance by the end of the GB if no other dividends are issued to that member.

Another thing I made a point of, is hiring GB members to do any work I needed  for more transparency. Automated payment software,  software to calculate the JSON files and separating and balancing the wallets.  Has all been done by GB members.


So this is the information that is public

- number of Jupiters with trans ids
- amount per share and a debited or credited amount to each member
- a balanced spreadsheet showing all mining income and expenses
- ledger showing all dividend payments to all members
- Jupiters mining addresses with stats

Again I have hired  GB members to verify all this information and is available to the public  so they can verify as well.

[soniq]

http://imgur.com/Ku1AYnN 

screenshot of portal access

[BenTuras]

In regards to all the other questions

I will read your reply a few more times, but the first thing I notice is that you didn't answer my question about the refund for the price difference that is missing for some of the participants.

[BenTuras]

Again I have hired  GB members to verify all this information and is available to the public  so they can verify as well.

I urge those GB members to speak up and confirm this.

[BenTuras]

...That is why I created this spreadsheet  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtH6ASvoAExHdF9IcFh3QmQ2dEt4Zk5qT3lRUDFDTVE&usp=drive_web&pli=1#gid=24

This spreadsheet is a mess, specially the Ledger Jan 20/14.
Stop using it and make use of the much simpler one I created for new dividend payments.

[BenTuras]

and here  https://bitminter.com/livestats/big  user soniq

And how do I see the number of BTC mined on bitminter ?
You can see them, go to My account, Transaction history and at the bottom get the monthly summary of mining income. Click on refresh after each change of the drop down box choices. Export them and collect them in a spreadsheet.

[dutu]

Hi Soniq,

It is very unfortunate that your long reply has in fact not provided any additional data or any additional clarity on the books.

We got your message about the Norwegian police forensic expert, 2 software engineers and 100+ GB members verifying your transactions, but these statements are less convincing until clear and accurate data is available and posted here.

Such statements, not backed up by transparency and clear and accurate data, are raising doubts that something is hiding.


I have asked one simple question that will allow me to continue with verifying the books: "amount of bitcoin mined at Gigapool"
You have failed to provide an answer.

It is really unfortunate that, beside noticing lack of interest in managing this GB properly, we have to start questioning your honesty.

So this is the information that is public

- number of Jupiters with trans ids
- amount per share and a debited or credited amount to each member
- a balanced spreadsheet showing all mining income and expenses
- ledger showing all dividend payments to all members
- Jupiters mining addresses with stats

In the very same post, when answering the question about how many coins have been mined at Gigapool, you write:

As far as you question about gigapool, at the beginning of the GB, Oct 14 only 5 days after receiving the Jupiters almost every GB member was watching very intently as there had not even been a dividend payment made yet. There was concerns about getting best hashing rate for the Jupiters and some members suggested trying different pools.  I tested Gigapool, and  posted to the forum I was doing so, So all the members could account for the 26 mining Jupiters.  I am looking for the transactions now.

Now, please let us know have the transaction been published and indicated in the balance sheet or you are still looking for these transactions now?
Please post them when you find them.

I have more questions, but let's take it step by step. Wit too many questions at once we may fail to clarify any.



BTW, regarding your statement

The spreadsheets and ledgers for this GB  have been verified by a forensic scientist with the Norwegian police and two software engineers.

can you confirm if these people have verified the data you have shared with the GB members or perhaps there is some additional unpublished data they have verified.
Please also confirm their forums name or identities so we can verify with them, and please publish their reports and findings. I'm sure this with give you and us peace of mind.

[agibby5]

soniq requested I disclose that I helped him separate the GB addresses from his payment addresses in the bitcoin-qt client, go through the books and verify people's payouts are accurate, get the software from espen running to issue dividends in espen's absence, generate the bitcoin sendmany command to issue the last dividend, and generate a balance sheet including the mining income, expenses, and payouts to members. I'm pretty confident that most members are being paid appropriately.  The ones that have contacted us to look at it have been accurate for their situation.

There was one member severely overpaid because at one point soniq issued the exact same sendmany two payouts in a row... the first one had a large payout to bring him up to date and the second one had a matching payout which send him into being overpaid.  There aren't any on the list that are underpaid keeping in mind that a payout isn't triggered until the amount is .01 or more.

I think a good way to look at it is to get the total paid out so far, remove soniq's 2% commissions and divide it by the number of shares: ( 1029.83732157 - 26 )  / 780 = 1.286970925.  That's a rough estimate of what each share should have paid out to date.  However, there are numerous reasons why this wouldn't be accurate (share price adjustments, per member hosting payment adjustments, loans).  What I was surprised about is that the price paid out per share is different almost to each user and that makes calculating accuracy difficult.  Someone would have to go into each user and calculate the payouts per share and determine the reason for the variance (usually one or more of the reasons above).  

...That is why I created this spreadsheet  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtH6ASvoAExHdF9IcFh3QmQ2dEt4Zk5qT3lRUDFDTVE&usp=drive_web&pli=1#gid=24

This spreadsheet is a mess, specially the Ledger Jan 20/14.
Stop using it and make use of the much simpler one I created for new dividend payments.

I think the reason why soniq is reluctant to change this style of reporting is that it's generated by espen's software which divides up the BTC amount and spits out the bitcoin sendmany command.  I think it's a little late in the game to stop using this software for calculations and reporting.  It's been used several times in the past and was the replacement for using Silfax's automated disbursement software which caused some problems with members not being paid correctly...through confusion of how to use the software or an actual bug (I think it's the former).  I've verified that espen's software is doing the right thing and have even made some tweaks and fixes to it.  The reason why we can't just divide the mining income by the number of shares is that there are adjustments that need to be made in order to bring everyone's cumulative payouts into balance.