ASICMINER Speculation Thread

[Blazed]

AMHash is failing to meet their obligations though...not paying out dividends like they promised. AM1 has been failing since gen 1, and made no promises of dividends. I agree AMHash should be halted, but not AM1.

[HarmonLi]

...
Well did AMHASH request halting the trading for AMHASH? If it wasn't Havelock's sole decision I can understand them just leaving the whole situation to the free market. Why would they interfere? It's effectively their shares - those are passthrough shares.

Not sure I understand--which are "effectively their shares"?  Both AM & AMH belong to the shareholders, not Havelock. 

@Blazedout419:  How is halting trading on AMH punishing anyone but the suckers shareholders?  Why would Roxy care if the shares are trading?  What am I missing?

AMHash have issued the shares on Havelock. AM shares, on the other hand, weren't issued by AM to Havelock. Someone (ThickAsThieves) opened up a passthrough on Havelock 2 years ago and forwarded all dividends to the people holding the TaT.AM shares. A year ago these shares were transferred to Havelock, since they apparently didn't want any passthroughs anymore. One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares and only issued passthrough shares... It's difficult.

[freedomno1]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

[Kipsy89]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

Yeah I guess a surprise appearance by FC could indeed trigger some decent panic-buying, also considering that the order book isn't that thick back to IPO prices...

[explorer]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

How many would now be HAPPY to take IPO price as a forced buy back?

[Kipsy89]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

How many would now be HAPPY to take IPO price as a forced buy back?

Yeah man, I think it'd be a definite possibility to just call it quits and buy back all shares at IPO price... I mean it would only cost 40k BTC in total, and I think this would be doable for AM (if the funds are still accessible), esp. considering they only need to buy back all non-Bitfountain shares...

[freedomno1]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

How many would now be HAPPY to take IPO price as a forced buy back?

Yeah man, I think it'd be a definite possibility to just call it quits and buy back all shares at IPO price... I mean it would only cost 40k BTC in total, and I think this would be doable for AM (if the funds are still accessible), esp. considering they only need to buy back all non-Bitfountain shares...

Honestly I was wondering why AM didn't buy back it's equity shares earlier

The reason they delayed to begin with was because they were giving perks to shareholders backed by shares to develop their mining farms etc by offering a discount backed by share holdings.

Seeing how that plan turned out and the reason they left that project as a sideproject and went with something else, there are not to many shareholder benefits, so a forced buyback made/makes sense.

Also works because you can redistribute those boughtback shares as equity in the future while retaining control, but guess it was not considered as a smart investment strategy.

[Blazed]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

How many would now be HAPPY to take IPO price as a forced buy back?

Yeah man, I think it'd be a definite possibility to just call it quits and buy back all shares at IPO price... I mean it would only cost 40k BTC in total, and I think this would be doable for AM (if the funds are still accessible), esp. considering they only need to buy back all non-Bitfountain shares...

Why would they buy back the shares? You think they really care about you investors at all? Take a look back at the last year...wake up.

[hdbuck]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

How many would now be HAPPY to take IPO price as a forced buy back?

Yeah man, I think it'd be a definite possibility to just call it quits and buy back all shares at IPO price... I mean it would only cost 40k BTC in total, and I think this would be doable for AM (if the funds are still accessible), esp. considering they only need to buy back all non-Bitfountain shares...

Why would they buy back the shares? You think they really care about you investors at all? Take a look back at the last year...wake up.

+1 its Time to move on.

[flame1012]

AsicMiner -> Amhash Scam

[Kipsy89]

...One could go and argue that Havelock owns the AM shares ...

Yeah, one could.  One would be dead wrong tho.  Funny you bring up TaT, haven't seen much of him after that NeoBee thingy.  Funny how people just sorta fade out, Starfish, TaT...

Still ghosting but he's on Bitcoin-Assets and then went off to twitter
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/

Meanwhile shares hold their resistance at 0.01
Well if there was a miracle IPO price would be 10X returns better than a Ponzi (Investor Based Games) perhaps lol.

How many would now be HAPPY to take IPO price as a forced buy back?

Yeah man, I think it'd be a definite possibility to just call it quits and buy back all shares at IPO price... I mean it would only cost 40k BTC in total, and I think this would be doable for AM (if the funds are still accessible), esp. considering they only need to buy back all non-Bitfountain shares...

Why would they buy back the shares? You think they really care about you investors at all? Take a look back at the last year...wake up.

Well if they really are honest people (like they and some others still claim) and this is just a huge huge hiccup, this could be their best way of ending this all gracefully.

[Blazed]

They need to buy everyone out who is holding AMHash shares for sure, but not AM shares. I think that AM really tried for gens 2,3,4 and just couldn't compete due to being a 1 man show versus real companies. I think FC built and killed this company all at the same time. Anyone who got in during the IPO made a killing and gen 1 was a great success. After gen 1 when they got some competition they just couldn't compete.

[HarmonLi]

They need to buy everyone out who is holding AMHash shares for sure, but not AM shares. I think that AM really tried for gens 2,3,4 and just couldn't compete due to being a 1 man show versus real companies. I think FC built and killed this company all at the same time. Anyone who got in during the IPO made a killing and gen 1 was a great success. After gen 1 when they got some competition they just couldn't compete.

If they deem the company not profitable anymore, what should they do with the assets? Sure, 'take the money and run' comes to mind, but I'm talking about the legal and moral right thing to do: Buy back the shares, yeah.

[KarmaShark]

There is an on-going thread with an active discussion on one of the chinese social networking sites. I cannot translate well so the bits and pieces I can parse through insinuates they are trying to and may have found Fried Cat:




http://8btc.com/thread-14566-10-1.html

[HarmonLi]

There is an on-going thread with an active discussion on one of the chinese social networking sites. I cannot translate well so the bits and pieces I can parse through insinuates they are trying to and may have found Fried Cat:




http://8btc.com/thread-14566-10-1.html

Already responded in the other thread, but a quick translation of posts from today says that they have not found him, but that there are 'more and more doubts'!!!

[freedomno1]

Transferring Jutaruls post from the main AM thread to speculation as well
Seems to confirm most of what we already know and provides the Boards Position on this

Let me break the silence, since many have wondered about the events on the board and among major shareholders. I apologize to all who sent me messages and didn't get a reply. But the situation at ASICMINER is simply hard to diagnose without first hand information. I guess I speak for every major shareholder when I say that no one saw the current situation coming. Sure - the company has been struggling lately, in part because the window of opportunity closed quickly and ASICMINER didn't move as fast as some of the competition. However, seeing how ASICMINER got hit by a double whammy of first loosing its farm and then its CEO is quite disturbing, to say the least.

The situation surrounding Rockminer is complex. I am saddened to see such an aggressive stand of Rockminer towards ASICMINER. I can only suspect that they are getting a lot of pressure themselves. However, there are more professional ways to deal with the issue than to clutter the internet with confidential material - that alone speaks volumes. The only excuse I can see for this is that ASICMINER so far has dealt with the situation poorly - and this is inexcusable.

The contractual obligations are currently being analyzed. So far it is clear that there seems to be no real clause which defines who is liable for events like theft or fire. Obviously, there has been no insurance plan either. The general rule for situations like these is that any clear liability assignment is commercially not viable and the affected parties have to sort it out somehow. The problem is that the product AMHash theoretically involves 5 Parties (Operator, Manufacturer, HashLord, Contract Platform, Contract Holder), of which neither has the ability to absorb the damage alone.  So far the overall understanding is that ASICMINER should carry some responsibility - however, the ability of the company to deal with the current fallout is hampered. Pressuring the company to do anything which it can't deliver is not productive.

I hear that some parties are considering legal steps. Let me tell you that from experience this won't end well for anybody and only results in wasting money on the parasitic elements of our economy. What we need in the current situation is a leadership figure who seeks compromise. This crisis won't be solved overnight. If a solution is reached it's likely gonna be a 2 year plan or some form of agreeable settlement. I hope I didn't shock anybody with this assessment.

Regarding the shareholding. It has been of a lower priority. For everyone who is holding shares and has traded recently, please preserve the full trail up to the last checkpoint, which means the cryptographic signatures which are used to authorize reassignment of shares. If traded unsafely, there is no guarantee that the ownership can be confirmed. Beware of double spending vectors in OTC transactions and use escrow if possible.

I saw some claim for the board not doing its work. Unfortunately there is no job description for board members, nor do they have an official duty with the company (unless a board member decides to get actively involved with the business). The conclusion which was already drawn a long time ago is that proper assessment requires boots on the ground. But those who actually were, never developed the habit of fiduciary reporting. AM Management always enjoyed a lax handling. I am not certain whether a stronger hand would have helped though. The business is tough. One little detail though - FC was always conflicted which information to release to the board and which not - especially since some of the board members have a conflict of interest because they are working for the competition. As such we covered mostly the baseline of sticking to financial statements as required by law.

According to the latest status the BE300 is confirmed and working. However, to bring the chip to market requires FIXED COST + COST PER CHIP + BUILD OUT COST. The funding situation for this is dire and it would require a new investor or a big buyer who has to be certain that he gets what he is promised. There are two scenarios where this could be quickly achieved:
a) A bitcoin price explosion would release dormant capital instantly shifting the reward/risk ratio.
b) A new type of investor who enjoys preferred treatment over AM Shareholders for the financing of the BE300 tech. Likely implemented as a joint venture.

I will collect further questions via PM and answer them publicly. I am certain I missed a few important points in this post.

Regards

Also adding David Fan's statement current ASICMINER Rep according to Phasebird

UPDATE: the following info is literally wrote from David.Fan  （Co founder of ASICMINER）


 STATEMENT FROM DAVID.FAN

Dear customers and clients,

The last few weeks have not been easy for the company. Friedcat went missing and this caused an interruption with the business. We are slowly recovering from the loss in company leadership.

First, the company is still operating, albeit at a reduced employee count. The physical location of our new office is currently confidential to guarantee an undisturbed office environment. Our sales contact is still the same. For all other requests please contact us through our general help line (email: help@bitquan.com).

With friedcat missing, the current management of the company is carried out by David Fan temporarily. We will keep you informed of any significant changes, as we are still developing a long term solution to the current situation. We understand that many people are concerned about friedcat and his safety. We ask to not spread any misleading rumors and not pursue speculation.

Due to unforeseen events , the computational that power AMHash managed by RockMiner has become unavailable. We are sorry for the resulting damage experienced by any third parties. We are doing everything in our power to mitigate the damage.


Yours truly,
ASICMINER Management

[arnuschky]

Who is DAVID.FAN（Co founder of ASICMINER??  Was he ever mentioned before?  Translation of Chinese name?

He's apparently the co-founder of AM together with Friedcat. (see main AM thread)

[lophie]

Guys go to the main thread and read Jutarul's last post, especially the last two sentences......

ASICMINER is DONE. Really!

[elasticband]

Dear AMHash Contract Holders,

ASICMINER has prepared a contract offering on HaveLock with the ticker symbol AMHashLC. AMHashLC is a contract to offer final settlement for current holders of contracts AMHash. AMHash is a bitcoin mining contract, which is currently not performing due to unforeseen events. AMHash is a complex product which was provided through the collaboration of 4 different parties ( Operator(confidential), ASICMINER, ROCKMINER, Havelock). Each party provided certain guarantees and made certain representations. The continuation of the AMHash contract is currently uncertain due to structural problems in some of the participating companies. Furthermore, it is not clear how the resulting liability should map to the contractual framework and would need to be discovered through formal proceedings.

With AMHashLC, AMHash contract holders will now have an option to accept a default on their contract and transfer any rights for claimed damages arising out of the non-performance of AMHash to the issuer of AMHashLC. The issuer of AMHashLC is ASICMINER. Please note that this offer is not an assumption of liability. It is a proactive offering to allow people to discharge of their AMHash contracts. Please study the specific details for the AMHashLC offering before you make a decision.

HOW TO SWAP YOUR AMHASH UNITS TO AMHASHLC UNITS:

Log into your Havelock Account and click on the xfr button to issue the units back to the issuer. By sending AMHash units back to the issuer your account will receive an equivalent amount of AMHashLC units in return. There is a potential time delay due to this process having to be performed manually.


For AMHash contract holders who have no account with HL: Please contact ROCKMINER for further instructions on how to migrate the contracts to Havelock. We expect ROCKMINER to make a corresponding announcement which contains the necessary details on migration procedures.

Yours truly,
ASICMINER management

AMHashLC offering:
==================

AMHashLC is a liquidated amount contract in exchange for damages and liabilities arising out of contracts AMHash. It can only be obtained by contract holders of AMHash via a swap of AMHash for AMHashLC contracts at a 1:1 ratio. AMHashLC is not tradable otherwise.

Carefully read the terms and conditions before executing the swap.

Introduction
============

AMHashLC is a contract to offer final settlement for current holders of contracts AMHash. AMHash is a bitcoin mining contract, which is currently not performing due to unforeseen events. AMHash is a complex product which was provided through the collaboration of 4 different parties ( Operator(confidential), ASICMINER, ROCKMINER, Havelock). Each party provided certain guarantees and made certain representations. The continuation of the AMHash contract is currently uncertain due to structural problems in some of the participating companies. Furthermore, it is not clear how the resulting liability should map to the contractual framework and would need to be discovered through formal proceedings.

With AMHashLC, AMHash contract holders will now have an option to accept a default on their contract and transfer any rights for claimed damages arising out of the non-performance of AMHash to the issuer of AMHashLC.

The issuer of AMHashLC is ASICMINER.

AMHashLC terms
==============

1) DEFINITION: Each AMHashLC unit represents a total of 0.0003 BTC (0.3 mBTC) payable to the holder of the contract.
2) ACQUISITION AND IRREVERSIBILITY: AMHashLC can be obtained by holders of AMHash contracts only. Each unit of AMHash can be exchanged for one unit of AMHashLC. The exchange is irreversible.
3) COMPLETE AND FINAL TRANSFER: By executing the swap of AMHash for AMHashLC, the owner transfers all prior, existing and future rights and privileges arising out of holding the AMHash contract to the issuer of AMHashLC.
4) NO RECOURSE: By executing the swap of AMHash for AMHashLC, the owner relinquishes the right for any direct or indirect claims arising out of holding the AMHash contract against any party involved in the creation, performance or sale of the contract AMHash.
4) NOT TRANSFERABLE: AMHashLC shall not be traded.
5) GUARANTEED FUNDING: Sufficient funding for all AMHashLC contracts is provided prior to the offering and is secured in BTC address 1FU3uhBR4bKTavbeiJXdHHs13W5bRjM7DA.
6) SCHEDULE: The swap will be offered until April/20/2015. After April/20/2015 the swap offering will be closed and no further swaps will be possible. The total payment to units of AMHashLC will be split into 5 equal installments paid on a weekly schedule. The first payment will be provided after April/20/2015 and prior to April/24/2015 and the combined total will be paid out before May/29/2015.
7) FURTHER OFFERINGS: We reserve the right to do additional rounds of AMHashLC offerings with the same conditions after May/29/2015, should it be deemed necessary.

Q&A
===

Q) Why should you choose to swap your AMHash for an AMHashLC contract?
A) Piece of mind and closure. You're exchanging an uncertain and difficult to enforce contract for a fully funded and scheduled payment plan.

Q) Do I have to perform the swap?
A) No - you do not have to. You have 3 choices: a) Wait for the parties to fix the product and start performing on it again b) Look into litigation or alternative enforcement options c) accept the swap

Q) Is this a scam?
A) No. It's a non-performing contract due to unforeseen events. The issuer of AMHashLC will look into the legal enforcement options against what they consider the responsible parties. By offering AMHashLC as a swap, the issuer of AMHashLC will hold the corresponding contract rights.

Q) I am not satisfied with the amount I get back on the contract.
A) The amount is chosen from practical considerations. The issuing party is currently heavily undercapitalized, the contractual situation and enforcement is difficult and the prospect for recovery of damages is limited if not to say nil. Your lawyer will likely confirm that the offer is in fact attractive.

Q) Who failed and who was responsible for AMHash?
A) The answer to that question is not easy. An important key person is missing and cannot make any statement. The only thing which is clear by now is that basic risk coverage was not considered, which makes all liabilities arising out of any of the contracts effectively unsecured claims.

[AirWolf]

What is most unacceptable of this ridiculous offer is not only the price, but the infuriating fact that they want us to wait A MONTH FROM NOW and then 5 WEEKS MORE to receive 1/4 of what we invested!!!!!

For AMHASH: I will send the papers to my friends in the Russian government who will in turn send them to their friends in the Chinese gov. and they will fry you as a cat

For HAVELOCK: I will contact Canadian IRS and denounce the whole maneuver to avoid taxes in Canada, and also file a police report against you and your brother.