Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today!

[ThatDGuy]

To all of you that seem concerned about Garr using a sockpuppet account: I was refreshing this thread constantly when Inaba accused Garr of using a sockpuppet account to post and I never saw that happen. I think Inaba photoshopped the image he used. Think about it a minute. Who constantly snap screenshots so fast that they could catch a posting that couldn't have been here for more than a few seconds.

+1

There's enough evidence here suggesting that the quote and screenshot are fake that, if I were theymos, I would deny any request regarding the authenticity of the post.

This is absurd.

The original post from Werner's account was made at 3:03.  Removed sometime between then and when Garr255 posted it on the correct account at 4:04:

I did not request a refund. If you refund me, I expect the full amount of BTC I paid to be refunded. If you are able to do this I will gladly take my business elsewhere, because believe it or not you have competition now

You'll get the full amount you paid in USD, since that's how our products are priced. 

As a point of fact, you did request a refund, let me quote you:

but your business operations and ethic are both unacceptable.

You find them unacceptable, I understand.  We will cut ties and move on and you no longer have to deal with the unacceptable (to you) business nature.  We do not want to force you into a position where you are must deal with an unacceptable situation, so we are removing that roadblock from your happiness.  I'm done here, your refund will be processed by COB tomorrow.

I think you're misunderstanding my logic. Take Apple Computer for example. A company that produces an admittedly good product, but not in the most ethical way. I am open about how they shouldn't employ FoxConn for their assembly etc, but they do it anyway, and I live with it.

My intentions are not to anger anyone, or disrupt my business relationship with BFL. I just want to promote honesty, and discourage the opposite.

Give me truth and I'll give you peace. Most people think that's simple enough.

Then Inaba posted less than 2 minutes later with the screenshot:

Quote from: Inaba on Today at 02:58:55
Quote
I did not request a refund. If you refund me, I expect the full amount of BTC I paid to be refunded. If you are able to do this I will gladly take my business elsewhere, because believe it or not you have competition now

You'll get the full amount you paid in USD, since that's how our products are priced. 

As a point of fact, you did request a refund, let me quote you:

Quote
but your business operations and ethic are both unacceptable.

You find them unacceptable, I understand.  We will cut ties and move on and you no longer have to deal with the unacceptable (to you) business nature.  We do not want to force you into a position where you are must deal with an unacceptable situation, so we are removing that roadblock from your happiness.  I'm done here, your refund will be processed by COB tomorrow.

I think you're misunderstanding my logic. Take Apple Computer for example. A company that produces an admittedly good product, but not in the most ethical way. I am open about how they shouldn't employ FoxConn for their assembly etc, but they do it anyway, and I live with it.

My intentions are not to anger anyone, or disrupt my business relationship with BFL. I just want to promote honesty, and discourage the opposite.

Give me truth and I'll give you peace. Most people think that's simple enough.

Hahaha... post with the wrong sock puppet account there, sport?  Epic!

*EDIT* - For those of you who may have missed it, Garr just accidentally posted with his Werner account and then deleted the post and reposted with Garr when he realized he screwed up.

Yes, truth indeed.  Truly epic.

(http://communityhosting.net/ih/images/garrada.jpg) - got a nice screen shot of it, as well

So the time is incredibly tight.  Are you trying to suggest that Inaba pulled off this photoshop in 2 minutes and managed to pick the otherwise random forum poster in this thread who coincidentally has multiple posts in his history that directly support and/or shill Garr255's auctions?

That all seems pretty unlikely.

[1714943962]

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[Pierre]

He faked the quote, but the screenshot is legit.

I have no evidence to support this claim but it's my best guess.

[erk]

On a more important note than the smear campaigns:

The shipping door was finally opened to the Singles. Its true we had already shipped a couple of Singles, but today it was several. We are not holding up shipping because the new power supplies have not arrived. Amazingly, everyone I called said, "Ship me the Single SC without the power supply unit." All Single SC shipments are from paydate June 23 and will be for awhile.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/200-wednesday-june-19-2013-shipping-update.html

[jwest411]

Im a neutral spectator to all of this, but i don't find it very funny. Lets talk more about BFL. First, we can all agree BFL fucked up with delays and false promises.In bitcoin mining, time = money, making this unforgivable. In addition, this isn't just a normal (looking forward) lost year of mining,[it was at a super easy difficulty AND before the current arms race. How is this not mentioned every time this is brought up? For what its worth, the reason Friedcat deployed so fast & skipped venture capital funding was to take advantage of these two things.

If i were in charge of butterfly labs, I'd be doing everything I could to build confidence within my customers, or at least making them feel as if they aren't getting royally screwed. What I really can't understand is why Josh goes the other way and continues to rant. In a business such as bitcoin, trust is everything as counter-party risk (in this anonymous environment) is humongous. Threatening people with a loss of equity (that's what a refund is at this point) does not build confidence. I know you're human, and nobody likes to get yelled at, but your company failed on a promise. That is the territory that comes with failing to live up to self-set expectations. You had no problem taking the money in at pre-order time right? You're supposed to be a professional businessman, and part of that involves rising above hate directed at you when you were clearly in the wrong.

I have a question for Josh:

If you were a bitcoin miner, at this point why in the world would you buy a BFL product? Anyone who recently purchased a BFL product from BFL PLEASE feel free to chime in.



 This situation has many things in common with this Bitinstant fiasco I was unfortunately apart of: (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=128314.0)

In this thread, URSAY complains that he doesn't like to be yelled at because he is a human being behind a computer. We all had to go along wit it as he openly said it was our only chance of recouping our coins (and not getting completely scammed). When you owe a debt, you're not in a position to be making demands about your treatment. STFU and fix the problems at hand   FYI, the thread is so long because Bitinstant didn't deliver THAT many people's coins.

Situations like these (atleast for bitinstant) seem to create patterns that continue over time.

http://www.coindesk.com/bitinstant-complaints-flare-up-after-beta-site-launch/



 I want to add one thing: Josh, why don't you outline reasonable dates you think you can accomplish pre-orders by? What if you picked dates and put up a bounty that customers received ____ bitcoins if their order isn't shipped by then? You restore confidence by outlining a plan you're willing to put $ behind.

[erk]

I have a question for Josh:

If you were a bitcoin miner, at this point why in the world would you buy a BFL product? Anyone who recently purchased a BFL product from BFL PLEASE feel free to chime in.

It's pretty obvious if you want an ASIC mining rig, what else is there? No more Avalon batch announcements, KNCminer have never shipped a thing, so your alternatives are very limited, you can wait months for one of the numerous Avalon chip board projects to be produced, which have their own long waiting queues. BFL and Block Erupter seem to be the only things actually shipping that you can order.

[Pierre]

What I really can't understand is why Josh goes the other way and continues to rant.

I think it's because Josh is an asshole. I could be wrong, maybe he has a mental disorder or something instead so don't quote me on this. All I know is that I'm not buying anything from BFL ever.

[jwest411]

I have a question for Josh:

If you were a bitcoin miner, at this point why in the world would you buy a BFL product? Anyone who recently purchased a BFL product from BFL PLEASE feel free to chime in.

It's pretty obvious if you want an ASIC mining rig, what else is there? No more Avalon batch announcements, KNCminer have never shipped a thing, so your alternatives are very limited, you can wait months for one of the numerous Avalon chip board projects to be produced, which have their own long waiting queues. BFL and Block Erupter seem to be the only things actually shipping that you can order.

Really good point, but would you place a new order for a BFL ASIC today? If you placed a BFL order right now, do you think you could get it before you could get a similar product elsewhere?

[becoin]

I have a question for Josh:

If you were a bitcoin miner, at this point why in the world would you buy a BFL product? Anyone who recently purchased a BFL product from BFL PLEASE feel free to chime in.

It's pretty obvious if you want an ASIC mining rig, what else is there? No more Avalon batch announcements, KNCminer have never shipped a thing, so your alternatives are very limited, you can wait months for one of the numerous Avalon chip board projects to be produced, which have their own long waiting queues. BFL and Block Erupter seem to be the only things actually shipping that you can order.

Really good point, but would you place a new order for a BFL ASIC today? If you placed a BFL order right now, do you think you could get it before you could get a similar product elsewhere?

You can always place new order for an ASIC from BFL or elsewhere IF ONLY you take some precautionary steps to secure your investment. Read the Manual:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0

[erk]

Really good point, but would you place a new order for a BFL ASIC today? If you placed a BFL order right now, do you think you could get it before you could get a similar product elsewhere?

Many thousands of people seem to think so, only time will tell.

There are signs that Avalon may be preparing to open orders for a batch #4, seems that their online support ticket system now has "Fourth Batch" as a support tick menu option.

[Rampion]

I can't believe what's happening here...

I did not bid up those auctions. I am not arguing the accusation that the werner account is under my control because I want to keep my BFL orders! Otherwise, believe me: I would be!

I have always been known to be one of the most transparent and trustworthy people around here. I'm sure a few btc might seem significant to some of you, but please be assured that I'm not going to SCAM people out of a few coins, because I value my reputation much more than that!

I'm genuinely disgusted with the outcome of this. Again: I'm going to hold to that apology because it is my fiduciary duty to do so, no matter what it does to my reputation.

Apologies for the mass confusion.

You could have accepted the forced refund like a man. You decided to publicly humiliate yourself because of greed - a refund was not good enough, you wanted your money printing machine even if that meant giving up honor and basic principles.

And because of greed you have a sockpuppet you use to scam people in auctions.

Unless Josh the sociopath has faked the screenshot he posted, he has exposed you as a greedy scammer.

Sad indeed.

[Rampion]

Ok, then we need to ask Theymos if the IP address matches for both Garr/Werner accounts.  Either Garr255/Werner is committing fraud or Inaba is committing libel.  One has got to go. 

If a mod can check that for us I'd be soooo happy

And what would that tell us? I can change my IP in a minute to appear is if it's a thousand miles away.

I would rather if a mod just closed the thread, as it seems to have degraded and gone offtrack.

If the accounts both originate from the same IP, that would be pretty damning evidence.

I Guess nobody is so retarded to log on their sockpuppet accounts without using a proxy and/or Tor.

[Garr255]

You could have accepted the forced refund like a man. You decided to publicly humiliate yourself because of greed - a refund was not good enough, you wanted your money printing machine even if that meant giving up honor and basic principles.

And because of greed you have a sockpuppet you use to scam people in auctions.

Unless Josh the sociopath has faked the screenshot he posted, he has exposed you as a greedy scammer.

Sad indeed.

I don't think you saw my reasoning for complying with Josh's requests. It was my fiduciary duty to do so. It was because I wanted to protect the investments of others above myself. I can hardly fathom how one could interpret that as greedy.

To all of you that seem concerned about Garr using a sockpuppet account: I was refreshing this thread constantly when Inaba accused Garr of using a sockpuppet account to post and I never saw that happen. I think Inaba photoshopped the image he used. Think about it a minute. Who constantly snap screenshots so fast that they could catch a posting that couldn't have been here for more than a few seconds.

+1

There's enough evidence here suggesting that the quote and screenshot are fake that, if I were theymos, I would deny any request regarding the authenticity of the post.

Thank you Maged.

[k9quaint]

Ok, then we need to ask Theymos if the IP address matches for both Garr/Werner accounts.  Either Garr255/Werner is committing fraud or Inaba is committing libel.  One has got to go. 

If a mod can check that for us I'd be soooo happy

And what would that tell us? I can change my IP in a minute to appear is if it's a thousand miles away.

I would rather if a mod just closed the thread, as it seems to have degraded and gone offtrack.

If the accounts both originate from the same IP, that would be pretty damning evidence.

I Guess nobody is so retarded to log on their sockpuppet accounts without using a proxy and/or Tor.

Sure, but if he made the mistake Josh is claiming, then he may have also screwed up in other ways as well. All it takes is one slip up, and the server logs would show it. In this case, absence of evidence cannot be taken as evidence of absence. However, if the two accounts did log in from the same IP it would be very damning evidence indeed.

[bizz]

What a sad thread.  

[Rampion]

You could have accepted the forced refund like a man. You decided to publicly humiliate yourself because of greed - a refund was not good enough, you wanted your money printing machine even if that meant giving up honor and basic principles.

And because of greed you have a sockpuppet you use to scam people in auctions.

Unless Josh the sociopath has faked the screenshot he posted, he has exposed you as a greedy scammer.

Sad indeed.

I don't think you saw my reasoning for complying with Josh's requests. It was my fiduciary duty to do so. It was because I wanted to protect the investments of others above myself. I can hardly fathom how one could interpret that as greedy.

If I was your investor, I would immediately ask for a refund after seeing this thread.

If I was your investor, I would never allow you to lie on my behalf. I would never allow you to give up basic morals and principles on my behalf, while humiliating yourself publicly. I would accept the forced refund and put all the blame on BFL because until the sockpuppet thing unfolded it was not your fault, as before Josh exposed you, you were raising valid points in the best interest of your investors.

I really hope mods look into this. Dishonest people abusing honest folks by robbing them using bidding sockpuppets in auctions should NEVER be allowed or indulged. Should ALWAYS be looked into. Otherwise this very forum becomes scammer's paradise.

The evidence is enormous. Josh posted the screenshot immediately after your post. What a coincidence that the posts of Werner are always supporting your ventures and bidding in your auctions. But I do really hope Josh is some kind of ultra-fast photoshopper and the mods can prove that Werner is definitely NOT your sockpuppet account.

I'm sorry, but there are only two options in here: either you (Garr) are a scammer with bidding sockpuppets that pump up the price in your auctions, effectively robbing people's money; or Josh willingly faked proof against you regarding a very serious issue, and that would be a filthy libel that cannot go unpunished. One of you needs to go, or to get a scammer tag, or whatever other measure there is in these forums to avoid honest people to be abused by the the dishonest ones.

[Red_Wolf_2]

The behavior on this thread really does astound me. In fact, its why I have finally signed up for an account here after more than a year and a half of lurking and avoiding it. I even waited out the newbie period for it.

I've read all the pages and pages of posts, and the only conclusion I can really come to is that the vast majority of people here are greedy, disturbed and nasty individuals. The attacks on each other have been at a very personal level which I would expect of an IRC channel filled with angry teenagers.

Do I understand that people are upset about not having their mining gear? Yes. I am one of those people. Do I feel opportunity has been lost? Sure! Do I wish things were different? Definitely.

That said, I also understand the real world, and how business works. Deadlines are not always met. Estimates can be over optimistic. Customers can get upset, money can be lost. That is the reality of this world, it isn't nice or fair. I posted a very long blog post over on the BFL forums outlining what I believe has gone wrong and why things have taken so long for BFL to get products moving out the door. I'm not going to repost it here so if you want to read it, go there and do so.

What I do find very disturbing is the way everyone is acting. I am increasingly finding it hard to have any sympathy for the people bleating and whining about how BFL is awful/scam/fraud/terrible/whatever. Have none of you ever worked in a customer focused role? I have worked on IT helpdesks before and I've dealt with nasty customers who do stupid things and then like to blame you for their mistakes and problems. Truth is, when you deal with it day in, day out, it starts to take its toll on you. You become jaded, short tempered and often quite nasty when pushed even a little bit. I've been lucky to almost never have had to deal with people who take the insults beyond a professional level apart from one fat unhappy girl who decided to say how hopeless I was to a colleague while I was working on her machine, right next to her.
I ended up reminding her I was right next to her, and my body language got the hint across the rest of the way. Had she persisted, I would have said "Fix it yourself", then gone and reported her to my manager.

I do have sympathy for Josh/Inaba, because day after day he has had to cope with all of your vitriol, nastiness and personal attacks. What is abundantly clear from the Garr situation is that he, like all of us, is actually human and can be pushed too far. You all claim his behavior is unprofessional, that he is a horrible person. Honestly, what do you all expect after what you do here?

If you don't like BFL. Simple. Don't buy from them. Get refunds if you have. It will make a lot of people a lot happier and calmer as a result.

Maybe before you go posting another thing, start thinking about how you would feel to be on the receiving end. Then multiply it by a few hundred. Then reconsider your post.

Amusingly enough, in my country it is considered a crime to use a carriage service to menace, harrass or cause offence. If convicted I believe the penalty can be up to three years in jail. I'm not in China, and I suspect similar laws exist where most of you are from. Those of you screaming lawsuit might want to consider what could be brought to bear on yourselves too were threads from this forum submitted as evidence of your behavior. I suspect any judge would look rather dimly on abusive behavior, threats, sock puppet accounts being used for fraud, etc. Just something to consider.

PS: Before you go calling BFL Shill, I'm not. I'm not even in the same country as BFL and am just a customer waiting on two Jalapenos. If you want to talk to me, you'll find me on Freenode IRC under the same or a very similar name.

[ct1aic]

Finally someone with the head on it's place! Thanks for your words, Red_Wolf_2.

[Este Nuno]

Josh gonna Josh itt...not too surprised.

However, I think it's highly improbable that Josh faked that screenshot. He's a lot of things, but I seriously doubt he would try to pull that off.

Someone should start a wager on bitbet. Especially since there seem to be quite a few people here who believe that Josh faked the Werner post. Should be some interesting action.

edit: Also, Garr obviously fucked up here badly as well. Both parties have done wrong imo.

edit again: Garr scamming the bids and such is much worse and in completely different category than what Josh has done itt. Just want to make myself clear.

[BFL_Shill]

[...]Before you go calling BFL Shill, I'm not.[...]

Why not? I would love love to communicate with somebody other than BFL's Johnson. My phone number is... going to be released in "about two weeks". We're working hard (or hardly working, idk the difference really) to get those digits into the computer. In other news, all hail the mighty Inaba! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWrmIqGs3Y

Also, check out our dear leader's home page! http://joshzerlan.com/

[mezzomix]

If you don't like BFL. Simple. Don't buy from them. Get refunds if you have.

I requested a refund in Jan 2013. BFL decided to ignore my request. A month later I'm no longer interested in the refund because most of my invested 200 BTC would have been lost. Now, most of my investement is lost no matter what BFL is doing.

Those BFL assholes made everything they could do to make sure they get my money and I will loose my investment. My only possibility is to never deal with BFL and Josh the douche bag again. Fuck you BFL!