Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today!

[k9quaint]

That said, I also understand the real world, and how business works. Deadlines are not always met. Estimates can be over optimistic. Customers can get upset, money can be lost.

The money is not lost, it is in BFL's hands. After a reasonable amount of time, failure to deliver becomes breach of contract.
Caveat emptor is not a defense when you break a contract to deliver product after the customer has paid in full.

The question boils down to: would a judge feel that it is reasonable for someone to wait 7 months to deliver a product that has been paid for.

[becoin]

The evidence is enormous. Josh posted the screenshot immediately after your post.

What if Josh's screenshot is genuine but he coordinated his action with bitcointalk mod insider switching names? Knowing from my own experience how some mods ferociously defend BFL crooks on these forums it won't surprise me at all!

[becoin]

Have none of you ever worked in a customer focused role?

I have never witnessed another "business" taking pre-orders ONE YEAR ahead, lying they have attracted venture capital, using customers money for R&D, refusing full bitcoin refunds, and lying all the time month after month that what they need is just two more weeks and everything will be okay! Have you?!

[erk]

The behavior on this thread really does astound me. In fact, its why I have finally signed up for an account here after more than a year and a half of lurking and avoiding it. I even waited out the newbie period for it.

Attitude, behavior, communication skills are often key factors in financial success, if you don't have those under control then you would naturally look for other ways to make a buck. Mining could well attract some of the group that are week in those skills, and explain some of the things you observed here. Probably no different than the many of the people attracted to gold mining in the past.

[Red_Wolf_2]

Have none of you ever worked in a customer focused role?

I have never witnessed another "business" taking pre-orders ONE YEAR ahead, lying they have attracted venture capital, using customers money for R&D, refusing full bitcoin refunds, and lying all the time month after month that what they need is just two more weeks and everything will be okay! Have you?!

Sure I have... We've all seen it with certain mobile phone makers. We've seen similar behavior with other ASIC makers too. It doesn't make it right, but it is no excuse to be a jerk.
You and I both know BFL didn't intend for pre-orders to be delayed by a full year. No business would willingly do that.
As for full bitcoin refunds, that would never happen. The payment gateway for many orders was bitinstant or bitpay or something (not sure which, was a while ago when I ordered). Those convert the coins to USD I'd imagine, and do it on the spot. The price of bitcoin skyrockets and you expect to get that gain even though you willingly parted with them for a product at the value of the time? I'd ask, why? Its no different to making a trade on Gox and then seeing the price go up. Sucks, but you made the decision to push the button at that time, knowing the exchange would take place.

Haven't heard anything about venture capital or using customer's money for R&D. Really, I'd hope they would do decent R&D, and that would be the point of taking preorders would it not?

Side note: I wonder if a judge would classify bitcoin as money anyway? Successfully arguing that in court could open some pretty interesting legal precedents now couldn't it!

[one4many]

Have none of you ever worked in a customer focused role?

I have never witnessed another "business" taking pre-orders ONE YEAR ahead, lying they have attracted venture capital, using customers money for R&D, refusing full bitcoin refunds, and lying all the time month after month that what they need is just two more weeks and everything will be okay! Have you?!

Ever heard from kickstarter.com? ... They are just one of at least a dozen community venture capital start-up websites.
I support two project there I paid over a year ago (pebble (red/white) and ramos clock) ... Nothing delivered yet (at least to me) ... so do I publicly cry about it? No!
The cry-babies in this form really get on my nerves, especially to ones who say ... "I ordered (some time after Nov '12) where is my f.... product?". Stop wining ... ask for a refund ... or just sit and wait.

Peace and world mining (or something like that )

   one4many

[Schrankwand]

Have none of you ever worked in a customer focused role?

I have never witnessed another "business" taking pre-orders ONE YEAR ahead, lying they have attracted venture capital, using customers money for R&D, refusing full bitcoin refunds, and lying all the time month after month that what they need is just two more weeks and everything will be okay! Have you?!

Ever heard from kickstarter.com? ... They are just one of at least a dozen community venture capital start-up websites.
I support two project there I paid over a year ago (pebble (red/white) and ramos clock) ... Nothing delivered yet (at least to me) ... so do I publicly cry about it? No!
The cry-babies in this form really get on my nerves, especially to ones who say ... "I ordered (some time after Nov '12) where is my f.... product?". Stop wining ... ask for a refund ... or just sit and wait.

Peace and world mining (or something like that )

   one4many

And what is the ONE difference that kickstarter's website has?

[Heathrow]

That said, I also understand the real world, and how business works. [...] Truth is, when you deal with it day in, day out, it starts to take its toll on you. You become jaded, short tempered and often quite nasty when pushed even a little bit. I've been lucky to almost never have had to deal with people who take the insults beyond a professional level apart from one fat unhappy girl who decided to say how hopeless I was to a colleague while I was working on her machine, right next to her. I ended up reminding her I was right next to her, and my body language got the hint across the rest of the way. Had she persisted, I would have said "Fix it yourself", then gone and reported her to my manager.

You understand how business works, and you think it's ok for a business to extort apologies from customers?  The business you'd like to run would be one in which all customers pampered your little butt, eh?  If folks don't pamper your soft little butt, you'd start abusing customers because you can't handle it?  You have no clue how business works.  You're a low-level tech who should be fired from your job.

[becoin]

Those convert the coins to USD I'd imagine, and do it on the spot. The price of bitcoin skyrockets and you expect to get that gain even though you willingly parted with them for a product at the value of the time? I'd ask, why? Its no different to making a trade on Gox and then seeing the price go up.

Your logic has major discrepancies.

1. BitPay is coverting BTC to USD on behalf of BFL and to the extend BFL wish. They may covert 100% of the bitcoins received, 50%, or none at all. Depends how BFL setup their merchant account with BitPay. Don't forget that contractual obligation to covert all of the BTC or part of it is between BFL and BitPay, not between BitPay and BFL customers!

2. If you ask why, I'll ask as well. If bitcoin price skyrockets, I don't understand how is purchasing bitcoins from MtGox and sending them to BFL is more profitable than purchasing bitcoins from MtGox and keeping them in my bitcoin wallet? On the contrary, if bitcoin price skyrockets and BFL refunds BTC pre-orders in USD they simply profit from the free option call gambling customer money.

3. If bitcoin price drops to zero BFL customers are losers again despite that they've some chance to get USD priced product in future. It is very close to mind that if bitcoin price drops to zero the price of BFL ASICs will be zero either for they can not be used for anything else but mine bitcoins. In fact you'll have to pay extra money to dump them in electronic garbage depo.

[dave3]

+1 for your post Red_Wolf_2.

BFL and Josh seem to get a lot of hate here.  I can understand criticism for the way things have gone down, but what you find here goes beyond that.

I first purchased a pair of FPGA Singles, and then as soon as the preorder for ASICS was announced, did the trade-in order for a pair of SC Singles.

I've had interactions with Josh from his mining operation that I used, and also with various BFL support staff regarding my orders.  All of those interactions have been pleasant and professional.  When dealing with any business, it helps to be pleasant and professional yourself if you'd like to be treated the same in return.

I can also understand people who have placed early orders and feel let down.  You can ask for a refund or you can wait it out, it's up to you.  All of this bitcoin mining stuff is risky and there is little guarantee things will work out how you'd like them to.

If you bought a stock you thought was going to increase in value, and then had it drop in price and started having doubts, you might think it was a pretty good deal to be able to go back and get a refund for your original purchase price.  That's sort of what BFL is allowing by granting refunds.  But there's still complaints, because they can't go back in time to make a different, more profitable choice with their refund money (refund me in BTC now that its risen 700% !).

[erk]

Your logic has major discrepancies.

1. BitPay is coverting BTC to USD on behalf of BFL and to the extend BFL wish. They may covert 100% of the bitcoins received, 50%, or none at all. Depends how BFL setup their merchant account with BitPay. Don't forget that contractual obligation to covert all of the BTC or part of it is between BFL and BitPay, not between BitPay and BFL customers!

2. If you ask why, I'll ask as well. If bitcoin price skyrockets, I don't understand how is purchasing bitcoins from MtGox and sending them to BFL is more profitable than purchasing bitcoins from MtGox and keeping them in my bitcoin wallet? On the contrary, if bitcoin price skyrockets and BFL refunds BTC pre-orders in USD they simply profit from the free option call gambling customer money.

3. If bitcoin price drops to zero BFL customers are losers again despite that they've some chance to get USD priced product in future. It is very close to mind that if bitcoin price drops to zero the price of BFL ASICs will be zero either for they can not be used for anything else but mine bitcoins. In fact you'll have to pay extra money to dump them in electronic garbage depo.

Unlike some other ASIC vendors, BFL products are priced in $US not BTC, how you come up with those $US is up to you. If you choose to use Bitpay instead of Paypal because you want to convert some BTC to $US to pay for the item, then what happens to the BTC after Bitpay receives them is no longer your concern. Bitpay might convert them to any number of different currencies at the request of BFL, there are many currency options Bitpay offer merchants. If I was BFL I wouldn't leave the money in BTC, far too risky, I would use fiat,  since BFL need to buy wafers, other components. pay rent and wages with it, can't suddenly have the value dropping by 50% as would have happened to any payments in the week after April 10th. But once again what happens to the BTC after Bitpay accept it is none of your business. All you need worry about is that you get the item you have purchased in what you feel is an acceptable time frame, or seek a refund of the $US purchase price.




 

[||bit]

Is there no internal power supply???

[greyhawk]

I support two project there I paid over a year ago (pebble (red/white) and ramos clock) ... Nothing delivered yet (at least to me) ... so do I publicly cry about it? No!

If I had a history of investing in "companies" (haha) that clearly have no idea what the fuck they are doing, I wouldn't cry about it publicly either. Let me guess, you bought an OUYA too?

[erk]

Is there no internal power supply???

Nope, no room, would have to be over 300watt, probably closer to 500watt to have headroom.

[||bit]

Is there no internal power supply???

Nope, no room, would have to be over 300watt, probably closer to 500watt to have headroom.

And they aren't shipping any power supply with the unit?

[Garr255]

Is there no internal power supply???

Nope, no room, would have to be over 300watt, probably closer to 500watt to have headroom.

And they aren't shipping any power supply with the unit?

Looks like they're not.

How many watts do these pull, has anyone measured?

[Nemesis]

Is there no internal power supply???

Nope, no room, would have to be over 300watt, probably closer to 500watt to have headroom.

And they aren't shipping any power supply with the unit?

Looks like they're not.

How many watts do these pull, has anyone measured?

Ask your sock puppet, he might have been to BFL forums.

[becoin]

Unlike some other ASIC vendors, BFL products are priced in $US not BTC, how you come up with those $US is up to you.

You're far far away from truth.

1. BFL products are priced both in USD and BTC. You can see the proof on the commercial invoice BFL issues to their customers. The official document for every purchase is the INVOICE:



2. How I "come up with those $US" is exactly NOT my choice but BFL's choice, because customer acts entirely upon BFL instructions how much bitcoins to what bitcoin address they have to pay!

If you choose to use Bitpay instead of Paypal because you want to convert some BTC to $US to pay for the item, then what happens to the BTC after Bitpay receives them is no longer your concern.

1. If I choose to use PayPal I have to be PayPal customer! Customers paying in BTC don't choose to use BitPay. BFL made this choice. BFL customers are not BitPay customers for they don't sign any contract with BitPay to be their customers. BFL signed such a contract with BitPay to be their customer.
2. You are correct that once BTC are on BFL's bitcoin account with BitPay customers don't have any control over them. Reason for this is that transactional currency is BTC not USD. As we all know refund is nothing else but a reversal of a transaction. This is why BTC refund must be in BTC not in USD.
3. Bitcoin refunds are treated by BFL as if customers didn't purchase ASIC but USD. This is a blatant violation of all forex regulations. Neither BFL nor BitPay have been licensed to make currency conversion for BFL customers. They are not regulated as exchanges.

[greyhawk]

It's becoin. Yay! Have you talked to your lawyer yet, becoin? Did he laugh you out of the office? Did you make a video of that as we asked you to?

I understand if you didn't have time to talk to your lawyer yet, becoin, it's only been 7 months after all.

[Nemesis]

It's becoin. Yay! Have you talked to your lawyer yet, becoin? Did he laugh you out of the office? Did you make a video of that as we asked you to?

I understand if you didn't have time to talk to your lawyer yet, becoin, it's only been 7 months after all.

He gotta save up his allowance for lawyer. His mom has to work 2 jobs for that. Be nice to him pls.