Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today!

[btceic]

BFL took a currency risk and apparently did not hedge it. Or they hedged it (by keeping the BTC paid instead of converting to USD) but are now unwilling to part with the profit made by holding that hedge.

The truth is that you won't know in what form and at what ratio (if they received a split) they received money for their products that were very clearly priced in USD.

Most people assume that they received some USD, at least.

How else would BFL pay for their components, rent, wages. and other expenses? It's nice to think you can use BTC for some things, but in reality it's not very many.

BFL has stated over and over that they have not touched customer funds for development and operations.
BFL has stated over and over that they put the funds in escrow and that anyone who wants a refund can have one.
If BFL was going to put into escrow what they collected from customers, why on earth would they instruct Bitpay to convert the BTC to anything else? That would create the mother of all exchange rate risks.

Bitpay will convert BTC into any of 30 other currencies and deposit those funds into a bank account of the merchants choosing. Bitpay will just send the BTC unless the merchant tells them otherwise. https://bitpay.com/faq

If BFL did convert the BTC into USD to pay rent, wages, and buy components, then why did they lie about doing so?

And they also said over and over again that the miners would be shipping too, just two more weeks guys cmon!

[Nightowlace]

BFL took a currency risk and apparently did not hedge it. Or they hedged it (by keeping the BTC paid instead of converting to USD) but are now unwilling to part with the profit made by holding that hedge.

The truth is that you won't know in what form and at what ratio (if they received a split) they received money for their products that were very clearly priced in USD.

Most people assume that they received some USD, at least.

How else would BFL pay for their components, rent, wages. and other expenses? It's nice to think you can use BTC for some things, but in reality it's not very many.

BFL has stated over and over that they have not touched customer funds for development and operations.
BFL has stated over and over that they put the funds in escrow and that anyone who wants a refund can have one.
If BFL was going to put into escrow what they collected from customers, why on earth would they instruct Bitpay to convert the BTC to anything else? That would create the mother of all exchange rate risks.

Bitpay will convert BTC into any of 30 other currencies and deposit those funds into a bank account of the merchants choosing. Bitpay will just send the BTC unless the merchant tells them otherwise. https://bitpay.com/faq

If BFL did convert the BTC into USD to pay rent, wages, and buy components, then why did they lie about doing so?

Butterfly labs are using the fact that they have shipped jalapeños to draw in new and unassuming customers. The new money they are generating can and is being used to refund old customers who are complaining and requesting refunds. The new customers with eager hopes and dreams allow them more time to continue the lies and deception while they try and figure out how to actually produce these units.

Classic ponzhi scheme. Pay the old money with the new money, rinse and repeat.

[Inaba]

Remember when you point your finger at someone their are three looking back at you.

I don't know what kind of weird crooked fingers you have, but when I point at someone, I point at someone, not 4 different things.

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3uxgwh/

[miter_myles]

Shouldn't you be packing boxes with a clown nose on?

[Freakin]

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order.  This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker.  BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.  

At this point I can't tell if some of you are trolling or if you're actually this moronic.  

[boonies4u]

Remember when you point your finger at someone their are three looking back at you.

I don't know what kind of weird crooked fingers you have, but when I point at someone, I point at someone, not 4 different things.

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3uxgwh/

He is referring to when you hold your arm out infront of you and have your index finger extended and your middle, ring, and pinky on your palm. The index finger is pointing in front of you, while the others are pointing at you.

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

+1

[k9quaint]

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

Customers paid in BTC. Bitpay acted on behalf of BFL (like a bank or credit card company would) to receive that BTC. What BFL instructed Bitpay to do with that BTC after receiving it is BFL's business. If BFL received USD from Bitpay, then it was only because BFL instructed Bitpay to convert the BTC into USD.

When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order.  This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker.  BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.  

You clearly did not read the bitpay faq here: https://bitpay.com/faq
Bitpay does what the merchant instructs with the funds. If BFL wanted the BTC so they could escrow it and refund it like they claimed to, then Bitpay would have sent them BTC. If BFL wanted to instead spend that BTC on operations and development, then Bitpay would have converted it to USD for them.

At this point I can't tell if some of you are trolling or if you're actually this moronic.  

At this point I can tell you didn't pay 200 BTC for a product in June 2012 only to have 12.5 BTC sent back to you now.

[kendog77]

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

Customers paid in BTC. Bitpay acted on behalf of BFL (like a bank or credit card company would) to receive that BTC. What BFL instructed Bitpay to do with that BTC after receiving it is BFL's business. If BFL received USD from Bitpay, then it was only because BFL instructed Bitpay to convert the BTC into USD.

When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order.  This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker.  BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.  

You clearly did not read the bitpay faq here: https://bitpay.com/faq
Bitpay does what the merchant instructs with the funds. If BFL wanted the BTC so they could escrow it and refund it like they claimed to, then Bitpay would have sent them BTC. If BFL wanted to instead spend that BTC on operations and development, then Bitpay would have converted it to USD for them.

At this point I can't tell if some of you are trolling or if you're actually this moronic.  

At this point I can tell you didn't pay 200 BTC for a product in June 2012 only to have 12.5 BTC sent back to you now.

If you were truly bullish on BTC, you would have paid in USD and kept the bitcoin in your wallet. The fact that BTC is worth a lot more now then it was 1 year ago is completely irrelevant. To prove to you how absurd the logic is, lets assume BTC is worth 10% of what it was one year ago right now. Do you think it would be reasonable for any company to make you pay 10x more BTC before they would ship just because the value of BTC went down after you made your purchase and payment?

The main reason people are upset is because they made a poor decision to part with BTC and now it's worth 10x as much. The only thing that is relevant is the price of BTC in USD at the time of purchase. Anything else is sour grapes.

[Freakin]

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

Customers paid in BTC. Bitpay acted on behalf of BFL (like a bank or credit card company would) to receive that BTC. What BFL instructed Bitpay to do with that BTC after receiving it is BFL's business. If BFL received USD from Bitpay, then it was only because BFL instructed Bitpay to convert the BTC into USD.

When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order.  This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker.  BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.  

You clearly did not read the bitpay faq here: https://bitpay.com/faq
Bitpay does what the merchant instructs with the funds. If BFL wanted the BTC so they could escrow it and refund it like they claimed to, then Bitpay would have sent them BTC. If BFL wanted to instead spend that BTC on operations and development, then Bitpay would have converted it to USD for them.

My mistake, you are correct.  Didn't realize there were multiple options for what happened with your funds.  
Can someone point me to the post where BFL says they kept the funds in bitcoins?
Also, I can't seem to find a screenshot of BFL's page showing the prices in bitcoins.  Link?

At this point I can't tell if some of you are trolling or if you're actually this moronic.  

At this point I can tell you didn't pay 200 BTC for a product in June 2012 only to have 12.5 BTC sent back to you now.

[/quote]

I'd never be so stupid to pay 200BTC for a product if I knew the same BTC would be worth 1600% more a year later.  What were people thinking?  Why wouldn't they just pay in USD if BTC was going to skyrocket?

[dhenson]

Anyone else picturing this while reading this thread?

[Matthew N. Wright]

FTFY.

[Bitcoinorama]

Anyone else picturing this while reading this thread?

Lol!

[Freakin]

FTFY.

lol excellent

[k9quaint]

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

Customers paid in BTC. Bitpay acted on behalf of BFL (like a bank or credit card company would) to receive that BTC. What BFL instructed Bitpay to do with that BTC after receiving it is BFL's business. If BFL received USD from Bitpay, then it was only because BFL instructed Bitpay to convert the BTC into USD.

When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order.  This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker.  BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.  

You clearly did not read the bitpay faq here: https://bitpay.com/faq
Bitpay does what the merchant instructs with the funds. If BFL wanted the BTC so they could escrow it and refund it like they claimed to, then Bitpay would have sent them BTC. If BFL wanted to instead spend that BTC on operations and development, then Bitpay would have converted it to USD for them.

My mistake, you are correct.  Didn't realize there were multiple options for what happened with your funds.  
Can someone point me to the post where BFL says they kept the funds in bitcoins?

BFL says they kept the funds in escrow so that if customers wanted a refund they could depend on their funds being there. The only reason BFL would convert them to USD would be to spend them on something which they promised they would not do until the orders were shipped.

Also, I can't seem to find a screenshot of BFL's page showing the prices in bitcoins.  Link?

The price in bitcoins is shown when you get to the checkout screen having chosen "pay with bitcoins".

Edit: Awesome pic. I am totally gonna hook up with the hottie in the overalls when this thread is over. 

[dwolfman]

Personally, I decided these threads look much nicer when Mr "I can do nothing wrong" Inaba is ignored.  Got tired of seeing his unprofessional bullcrap responses.

I can guarantee now that I will never buy a BFL product, and it's all due to him.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Not my best work, but you don't deserve my best.



edit: look closely at his eyes and see what he sees

[Freakin]

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

Customers paid in BTC. Bitpay acted on behalf of BFL (like a bank or credit card company would) to receive that BTC. What BFL instructed Bitpay to do with that BTC after receiving it is BFL's business. If BFL received USD from Bitpay, then it was only because BFL instructed Bitpay to convert the BTC into USD.

When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order.  This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker.  BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.  

You clearly did not read the bitpay faq here: https://bitpay.com/faq
Bitpay does what the merchant instructs with the funds. If BFL wanted the BTC so they could escrow it and refund it like they claimed to, then Bitpay would have sent them BTC. If BFL wanted to instead spend that BTC on operations and development, then Bitpay would have converted it to USD for them.

My mistake, you are correct.  Didn't realize there were multiple options for what happened with your funds.  
Can someone point me to the post where BFL says they kept the funds in bitcoins?

BFL says they kept the funds in escrow so that if customers wanted a refund they could depend on their funds being there. The only reason BFL would convert them to USD would be to spend them on something which they promised they would not do until the orders were shipped.

Or because they didn't want to base the entire future of their electronics manufacturing business on a highly volatile currency. The USD is probably not going to crash in price overnight, but bitcoin could and has.  You're telling me you'd trust a company *more* if they kept their holding entirely in BTC?

Also, I can't seem to find a screenshot of BFL's page showing the prices in bitcoins.  Link?

The price in bitcoins is shown when you get to the checkout screen having chosen "pay with bitcoins".

So the prices were all posted in USD?  And customers who want to purchase the devices saw a price in USD that they agreed to?  

[Red_Wolf_2]

Looks like a lot of the "Refund me in BTC" stuff is greed motivated. I paid in BTC because I don't have an easy source of USD and don't like the conversion rates of Paypal. Had I held on to my BTC I'd have been able to afford at least ten times the number of Jalapenos than what I ended up ordering. Do I regret it? A little. But I do take responsibility for my actions and decisions. It was my choice to pay using bitcoins, at the known exchange rate of the time. I even felt I was doing well as the price had quadrupled compared to where it was less than a month before.

When I buy things from the US using Paypal, it does the conversion on the spot (at ridiculous rates I might add, the spread is large). If I ask for a refund, chances are they would just throw USD back in my paypal account. I'll admit I haven't asked for any refunds on anything recently because I don't make many purchases overseas (I hate shipping costs more than paypal exchange rates) and those I do make are of a suitable quality or what I expected.

I can just imagine the outcry if the bitcoin price halved or worse and refunds were paid in bitcoin rather than USD. Imagine how someone who paid at the ~200 range would feel if they got a refund at the exchange rate of today?

Seriously, do you people complain to the exchanges when you make a trade decision and it turns out it was unprofitable? That is the nature of the beast, and the risk you take when dealing with a new currency that must be exchanged to local currency. I'd be surprised if BFL didn't convert a majority of the bitcoin orders into USD, despite its problems the US dollar is a lot more stable, respected and widely used than bitcoin at the moment. After all, the US dollar doesn't halve in value overnight because of some lag on an exchange somewhere.

[k9quaint]

BFL did not receive bitcoins for preorders.  BFL received USD and allowed customers to exchange BTC for USD using BitPay for their own convenience.

Customers paid in BTC. Bitpay acted on behalf of BFL (like a bank or credit card company would) to receive that BTC. What BFL instructed Bitpay to do with that BTC after receiving it is BFL's business. If BFL received USD from Bitpay, then it was only because BFL instructed Bitpay to convert the BTC into USD.

When a customer placed an order they immediately exchanged their BTC for USD and used that USD to pay for the order.  This is exactly the same as if you sold bitcoins for cash, deposited cash into your bank account, then used your debit card to pay for the preorder, except that it is much much easier and quicker.  BFL did not gamble on any currency, they did exactly the opposite.  

You clearly did not read the bitpay faq here: https://bitpay.com/faq
Bitpay does what the merchant instructs with the funds. If BFL wanted the BTC so they could escrow it and refund it like they claimed to, then Bitpay would have sent them BTC. If BFL wanted to instead spend that BTC on operations and development, then Bitpay would have converted it to USD for them.

My mistake, you are correct.  Didn't realize there were multiple options for what happened with your funds.  
Can someone point me to the post where BFL says they kept the funds in bitcoins?

BFL says they kept the funds in escrow so that if customers wanted a refund they could depend on their funds being there. The only reason BFL would convert them to USD would be to spend them on something which they promised they would not do until the orders were shipped.

Or because they didn't want to base the entire future of their electronics manufacturing business on a highly volatile currency. The USD is probably not going to crash in price overnight, but bitcoin could and has.  You're telling me you'd trust a company *more* if they kept their holding entirely in BTC?

Remember, originally BFL was only going to hold the BTC for 4 months while they designed and manufactured their ASICs (June 2012 to Oct 2012).
BFL offered full refunds, and said they held the funds they received from pre-orders in escrow. How they manage their currency risk due to that escrow is their business.
I am not saying they should hold all their funds in BTC. I am saying they should have held the BTC they received from customers in escrow until they shipped the product. If they want to bet on another currency while holding their customers funds, that is their business. If BFL bet on USD over BTC, they lost and should not pass that loss onto their customers.
If BFL wanted to spend the BTC on operations and parts, they could have said that is what they were doing with it. Avalon does that. Avalon offers no refunds because they are spending the order money on operations and parts. BFL chose to offer full refunds to all customers, so they couldn't very well spend all the money they got.

So the prices were all posted in USD?  And customers who want to purchase the devices saw a price in USD that they agreed to?  

If they chose pay in BTC, they were shown how many BTC they needed to pay. This wouldn't be an issue if BFL did not claim to have all customer pre-order funds in escrow and offer full refunds to any who wish it. If they spent the money on operations and parts, I would be fine with it if they would just come out and admit it.

[TR4L]

Remember when you point your finger at someone their are three looking back at you.

I don't know what kind of weird crooked fingers you have, but when I point at someone, I point at someone, not 4 different things.

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3uxgwh/

He is referring to when you hold your arm out infront of you and have your index finger extended and your middle, ring, and pinky on your palm. The index finger is pointing in front of you, while the others are pointing at you.

This is why Marines point with a knife hand. Ooh Rah

http://www.blackfive.net/.a/6a00d8341bfadb53ef0167695541e8970b-pi