Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today!

[k9quaint]

When I buy things from the US using Paypal, it does the conversion on the spot (at ridiculous rates I might add, the spread is large). If I ask for a refund, chances are they would just throw USD back in my paypal account.

If you paid via Paypal 100 GBP for a product priced in USD and then asked for a refund, you would receive 100 GBP back.

[Red_Wolf_2]

When I buy things from the US using Paypal, it does the conversion on the spot (at ridiculous rates I might add, the spread is large). If I ask for a refund, chances are they would just throw USD back in my paypal account.

If you paid via Paypal 100 GBP for a product priced in USD and then asked for a refund, you would receive 100 GBP back.

And take a guess how that works? I just pulled up some of my deep Paypal history to find a refund from a year or so ago, and it goes like this.
Add funds (local currency)
Currency Conversion (local to destination currency)
Payment (destination currency)
Refund at a later date (destination currency)
Currency Conversion (destination currency to local currency)
Temporary Hold (local currency)
Release (local currency)

In my case, the refund was a partial that occurred a day after original payment due to a reestimate in shipping costs, so the amount was pretty small. However, the currency conversion rates DID change. I actually ended up making maybe a fraction of a cent on the refund amount. What does this mean though for everyone here? It means you can win or lose on currency conversion. You don't get the exact amount back if you perform a currency conversion on Paypal either when you request a refund.

Hopefully this will end the currency conversion thing once and for all.

[Bitcoinorama]

When I buy things from the US using Paypal, it does the conversion on the spot (at ridiculous rates I might add, the spread is large). If I ask for a refund, chances are they would just throw USD back in my paypal account.

If you paid via Paypal 100 GBP for a product priced in USD and then asked for a refund, you would receive 100 GBP back.

But that's because Paypal acts as an escrow of sorts, it's also why they only hold for 45 days, i.e. their buyer protection.

[dhenson]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the possible/inevitable? end result.

If this does go to trial, and the judge rules for the plaintiff taking K9quaints view that the original amount in BTC should be refunded then BFL will end up going out of business the next day.

EVERY bitcoin pre-order that hasn't yet shipped will demand a refund which I'm assuming BFL can't pay.

I'm not BFL, but I'd either be a) reinstating this guys order and apologizing or b) stepping up production to get the units out before trial.

Say what you will about BFL customer service and delivery failures but I for one don't want to see them go out of business.  We need more Asics in more hands and BFL fills a niche that nobody else is serving.

edit... This would also end up having far reaching ramifications on the bitcoin ecosystem as bitcoin is inherently deflationary compared to USD.  A judgement like the one proposed here would seriously hamper bitcoin adoption by your normal business.  K9quaints logic seems sound to me and I think it would seem sound to a judge as well.

[QuestionAuthority]

Not my best work, but you don't deserve my best.



edit: look closely at his eyes and see what he sees

What he sees in front of him is a herd of ignorant sheep waiting to be fleeced.

But those eyes are evil. He knows he must hurt them emotionally before ripping off their skin for profit. You can see the disgust in his eyes for the, as he calls them, "monumental assholes" that he's about to rape. Muahahaha

[Nightowlace]

I'm not BFL, but I'd either be a) reinstating this guys order and apologizing or b) stepping up production to get the units out before trial.

Maybe if Josh spent half the time working on Asics as he does on this forum trash talking everyone that questions BFL they probably would have been shipping 6 months ago.

[Nightowlace]

shit everyone that holds anybody else s asics about to be raped literally and metaphorically...... just wait and see the destruction that will happen.....

Totally off topic
Radryan huh? I have a friend who goes by that name. He is a DJ.

[k9quaint]

When I buy things from the US using Paypal, it does the conversion on the spot (at ridiculous rates I might add, the spread is large). If I ask for a refund, chances are they would just throw USD back in my paypal account.

If you paid via Paypal 100 GBP for a product priced in USD and then asked for a refund, you would receive 100 GBP back.

But that's because Paypal acts as an escrow of sorts, it's also why they only hold for 45 days, i.e. their buyer protection.

Exactly, Paypal is acting as an escrow which is precisely what BFL assured their customers was happening with their funds.
From Paypal's website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

BFL chose to hold for 12 months instead of 45 days and apparently did not hold their customers BTC in escrow as they promised they would.
BFL should not have promised to escrow and refund every one of their pre-orders. But since they did, they should abide by that promise.

[k9quaint]

When I buy things from the US using Paypal, it does the conversion on the spot (at ridiculous rates I might add, the spread is large). If I ask for a refund, chances are they would just throw USD back in my paypal account.

If you paid via Paypal 100 GBP for a product priced in USD and then asked for a refund, you would receive 100 GBP back.

And take a guess how that works? I just pulled up some of my deep Paypal history to find a refund from a year or so ago, and it goes like this.
Add funds (local currency)
Currency Conversion (local to destination currency)
Payment (destination currency)
Refund at a later date (destination currency)
Currency Conversion (destination currency to local currency)
Temporary Hold (local currency)
Release (local currency)

In my case, the refund was a partial that occurred a day after original payment due to a reestimate in shipping costs, so the amount was pretty small. However, the currency conversion rates DID change. I actually ended up making maybe a fraction of a cent on the refund amount. What does this mean though for everyone here? It means you can win or lose on currency conversion. You don't get the exact amount back if you perform a currency conversion on Paypal either when you request a refund.

Hopefully this will end the currency conversion thing once and for all.

You should have received back what you paid, minus any Paypal fees. From their website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

According to Paypal's website, you have a grievance.

[Malawi]

As far as Bitpay, that is BFL subcontracting out the actual exchange. It is just like using Paypal, or Mastercard, or Visa.
If I sent Paypal US$1000 to buy a TV direct from Sony. Then Paypal sends 80000 Yen to Sony (because they want to let Paypal handle the currency exchange) for my TV. When I ask Paypal for a refund 44 days later, will I get Yen or Dollars back? Will I get the same number of dollars I sent back? Or will it depend on the current exchange rate?

You will get a refund according to the price it was stated at. If the item was listed as costing 80000Yen, taht is what you get back, weather the dollar have gone up or down.

It's often that prices are denominated in one currency, but you can also see the price in other currencies aswell.

Here is a real-world example: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/60-GH-s-Butterfly-Labs-Bitcoin-Miner-BitForce-Single-SC-ASIC-SEP-17-2012-/140999993104?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d4412710

[Red_Wolf_2]

When I buy things from the US using Paypal, it does the conversion on the spot (at ridiculous rates I might add, the spread is large). If I ask for a refund, chances are they would just throw USD back in my paypal account.

If you paid via Paypal 100 GBP for a product priced in USD and then asked for a refund, you would receive 100 GBP back.

And take a guess how that works? I just pulled up some of my deep Paypal history to find a refund from a year or so ago, and it goes like this.
Add funds (local currency)
Currency Conversion (local to destination currency)
Payment (destination currency)
Refund at a later date (destination currency)
Currency Conversion (destination currency to local currency)
Temporary Hold (local currency)
Release (local currency)

In my case, the refund was a partial that occurred a day after original payment due to a reestimate in shipping costs, so the amount was pretty small. However, the currency conversion rates DID change. I actually ended up making maybe a fraction of a cent on the refund amount. What does this mean though for everyone here? It means you can win or lose on currency conversion. You don't get the exact amount back if you perform a currency conversion on Paypal either when you request a refund.

Hopefully this will end the currency conversion thing once and for all.

You should have received back what you paid, minus any Paypal fees. From their website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

According to Paypal's website, you have a grievance.

When I did the math, the amount came to be about 1 cent. I'm not going to bother wasting my time. In any case, I ended up with an extra cent, so I'm not the one with the grievance.
The way you can interpret the statement on the Paypal site is rather interesting. By the looks of it, the refund exchange is done at the rate used on the purchase date. This means the loss or gain (if any) appears to be eaten by Paypal rather than the buyer or seller in the transaction. This might have to do with Paypal being a financial services organisation, or might just be because they're being as nice and fair as they can. It might also be why the exchange rate spread is so high.

In essence, if this rule were applied across the board, BitPay/BitInstant would be the ones to suffer, not BFL, as the refund exchange would be done at the purchase date rates, which would be considerably lower than they are today.

[Malawi]

Anyone else picturing this while reading this thread?

Don't see Werner in that picture...

[k9quaint]

You should have received back what you paid, minus any Paypal fees. From their website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

According to Paypal's website, you have a grievance.

The way you can interpret the statement on the Paypal site is rather interesting. By the looks of it, the refund exchange is done at the rate used on the purchase date. This means the loss or gain (if any) appears to be eaten by Paypal rather than the buyer or seller in the transaction. This might have to do with Paypal being a financial services organisation, or might just be because they're being as nice and fair as they can. It might also be why the exchange rate spread is so high.

Paypal is a financial services organization which knows how to hedge currency risk.

In essence, if this rule were applied across the board, BitPay/BitInstant would be the ones to suffer, not BFL, as the refund exchange would be done at the purchase date rates, which would be considerably lower than they are today.

Except Bitpay was not the one offering the escrow & refund service, BFL was. BFL claimed they were holding the customer funds in escrow and those funds were available for refund. Paypal offers a similar service, and they use the exchange rate at the time of purchase as the exchange rate for the refund.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Anyone else picturing this while reading this thread?

Don't see Werner in that picture...

Your wish is my command.
Try to spot him if you can.

[Korbman]

Anyone else picturing this while reading this thread?

Don't see Werner in that picture...

I picture K9 as the little boy in the background (next to Freakin) ..he has no idea what's going on or how anything works, but he wants to be a part of the action.

[Red_Wolf_2]

You should have received back what you paid, minus any Paypal fees. From their website
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

According to Paypal's website, you have a grievance.

The way you can interpret the statement on the Paypal site is rather interesting. By the looks of it, the refund exchange is done at the rate used on the purchase date. This means the loss or gain (if any) appears to be eaten by Paypal rather than the buyer or seller in the transaction. This might have to do with Paypal being a financial services organisation, or might just be because they're being as nice and fair as they can. It might also be why the exchange rate spread is so high.

Paypal is a financial services organization which knows how to hedge currency risk.

In essence, if this rule were applied across the board, BitPay/BitInstant would be the ones to suffer, not BFL, as the refund exchange would be done at the purchase date rates, which would be considerably lower than they are today.

Except Bitpay was not the one offering the escrow & refund service, BFL was. BFL claimed they were holding the customer funds in escrow and those funds were available for refund. Paypal offers a similar service, and they use the exchange rate at the time of purchase as the exchange rate for the refund.

And where this might have changed is when I believe BFL switched from using BitInstant to BitPay, possibly around about the time BitInstant suffered a funds loss due to a successful hack attack.

[Bitcoinorama]

This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

[k9quaint]

This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

Of course BFL could have kept the Bitcoin paid funds in Bitcoins. BFL promised that they were not touching customer funds to pay suppliers, wages, rent, etc. BFL claimed to have Venture Capital funding to pay for that.

If BFL did not claim to have put the customer funds in escrow and offer them for refund at any time, I would not expect them to. But they did so claim, so I do so expect.  If BFL had just said from the start that they were funding ASIC development with pre-order funds and they had to convert BTC payments into dollars for this reason and that all refunds would be in dollars, I wouldn't have an issue with the way they did refunds.

[kendog77]

This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

Of course BFL could have kept the Bitcoin paid funds in Bitcoins. BFL promised that they were not touching customer funds to pay suppliers, wages, rent, etc. BFL claimed to have Venture Capital funding to pay for that.

If BFL did not claim to have put the customer funds in escrow and offer them for refund at any time, I would not expect them to. But they did so claim, so I do so expect.  If BFL had just said from the start that they were funding ASIC development with pre-order funds and they had to convert BTC payments into dollars for this reason and that all refunds would be in dollars, I wouldn't have an issue with the way they did refunds.

Did BFL ever claim to hold BTC in escrow? They could have converted BTC to USD, and held USD in escrow, couldn't they?

[k9quaint]

This is such a non-issue.

Anyone with common sense realises suppliers weren't ready to accept Bitcoin. Payment had to be made in dollars regardless of the accepted 'currency'.

Pre-orders were offered to customers in Dollars and Bitcoins. It would have been more than a little hypocritical not to.

BFL could not foresee the rise in Bitcoin's future value, nor could it keep Bitcoin paid finds in Bitcoins, as it needed to pay suppliers in Dollars.

Customers don't loose out on the Dollar value in any case. End of.

Of course BFL could have kept the Bitcoin paid funds in Bitcoins. BFL promised that they were not touching customer funds to pay suppliers, wages, rent, etc. BFL claimed to have Venture Capital funding to pay for that.

If BFL did not claim to have put the customer funds in escrow and offer them for refund at any time, I would not expect them to. But they did so claim, so I do so expect.  If BFL had just said from the start that they were funding ASIC development with pre-order funds and they had to convert BTC payments into dollars for this reason and that all refunds would be in dollars, I wouldn't have an issue with the way they did refunds.

Did BFL ever claim to hold BTC in escrow?

A quick google search of Inaba and preorder turned up this post. I provided the relevant quote that they claimed to hold preorder funds in a separate account and did not use it for day to day expenditures.

To answer your question, yes we maintain preorder funds separate from expenditure funds.

You can read the whole post to get the context.

They could have converted BTC to USD, and held USD in escrow, couldn't they?

Sure, but why would they? If they intended to refund their customers what they paid, why would they exchange the money and take a currency risk with one of the most volatile currencies on the planet (BTC). The only way it makes sense is if they needed to spend the USD, which BFL said they did not need to.