Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today!

[k9quaint]

Hey i just want to say......

FCK anyone that quoted becoin. Dont you idiots understand that ruined anyone that ignores him?

Keep feeding the troll idiots.

I don't ignore anyone. I'm also making everyone who has you on ignore read your post.  

becoin should realize that when customers choose to pay in BTC, using BitPay, to satisfy the USD prices listed in both the invoice and on BFL's product page

THAT

The bitcoin price is calculated on the spot to satisfy an amount in USD on the invoice. You are choosing to send your bitcoins at the time to settle a USD debt. I don't think bitpay even let's people price things in BTC. (correct me if i'm wrong)

That invoice even shows the conversion rate is valid for a limited time...

edit: also this

Paypal currency conversion policy:
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=rV0JKsnTq3Z197277Pg2sQ4mJ1HJWQ5xpxnJnzGxvW9J1FhW03yL!-1588418?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps&solutionId=163394&locale=en_GB&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=GB&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9012
Refunds are performed using the exchange rate which was current at the time of the original payment.

Bitpay lets you price in Bitcoin, they let you keep the bitcoins.
https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-payment-gateway-api
https://bitpay.com/faq

Most of this argument is a result of misinformation like:
Oh, BFL is just doing it the same as everyone else! False. See above link for how Paypal does things.
Oh, BFL had no choice but to convert into BTC! False. See above link from Bitpay.
Oh, BFL needed to spend the BTC to design the ASICS! False. BFL has stated repeatedly the pre-order funds were/are kept separate and not used for operations.

The claims that "BTC isn't ready for people to buy stuff with it" is extra irony appearing on these forums.

[assaultedCracker]

Let's fan this fire, yeah?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=239343.new#new

[boonies4u]

WAAAAAHHH!!! I don't appreciate the volatility of bitcoin!

see

You will receive refunds equaling in value to your original purchase as it was priced. Markets have no mercy. You are being punished for shorting Bitcoin. You cannot argue against the red truth.

[becoin]

If you paid for your order with 50 BTC, you should get a refund of 50 BTC. If you paid with $1000 USD, you should get a refund of $1000 USD.

Seems pretty obvious to me?

That is not obvious. The obvious thing is to get a refund based on the price and not what currency you paid with. They were priced in USD, and thus any refund :=USD sum.

Why do people close their eyes when they don't like to see the obvious? How many times do I have to tell you that it doesn't matter what is your price tag. It can be changed every second. What matters is the invoice! THE INVOICE IS THE COMMERCIAL DOCUMENT THAT IS BEEN TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION IN A COURT OF LAW! And BFL invoice clearly shows that it is priced BOTH in BTC and USD!

It clearly states that the price is in dollars, but that you can pay with BTC.

It clearly states that you have prices both in BTC and USD. I have deliberately used arrows to help BFL sock puppets and fanboys that close their eyes if they don't want to see the truth. All the text in any official document is equally important irrespective of the different fonts and sizes used.

It clearly says "Pay this invoice. Send 97.9672 bitcoins to ..."

[boonies4u]

It clearly states that you have prices both in BTC and USD. I have deliberately used arrows to help BFL sock puppets and fanboys that close their eyes if they don't want to see the truth. All the text in any official document is equally important irrespective of the different fonts and sizes used.

The bitcoin price changes depending on the current value of bitcoin. This is one of the reasons why the invoice is only valid for so long. If the price in USD at the time didn't matter, why would they price their units in USD?

It clearly says "Pay this invoice. Send 97.9672 bitcoins to ..."

see

The bitcoin price is calculated on the spot to satisfy an amount in USD on the invoice. You are choosing to send your bitcoins at the time to settle a USD debt. I don't think bitpay even let's people price things in BTC. (correct me if i'm wrong)

[becoin]

This is one of the reasons why the invoice is only valid for so long.

Not really. If I pay in time I have a completely valid commercial document the validity of which is "forever".

[becoin]

You are choosing to send your bitcoins at the time to settle a USD debt.

Pardon me, but customers don't have any USD debt to BFL neither before they place their order nor after that. The limited validity of an invoice is something very common in commercial practice. Such a document is called Proforma Invoice. That means if a customer pays in time this Proforma Invoice AUTOMATICALLY becomes Invoice. You should really have more business experience if you decide to continue this discussion!

[erk]

If you paid for your order with 50 BTC, you should get a refund of 50 BTC. If you paid with $1000 USD, you should get a refund of $1000 USD.

Seems pretty obvious to me?

That is not obvious. The obvious thing is to get a refund based on the price and not what currency you paid with. They were priced in USD, and thus any refund :=USD sum.

Why do people close their eyes when they don't like to see the obvious? How many times do I have to tell you that it doesn't matter what is your price tag. It can be changed every second. What matters is the invoice! THE INVOICE IS THE COMMERCIAL DOCUMENT THAT IS BEEN TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION IN A COURT OF LAW! And BFL invoice clearly shows that it is priced BOTH in BTC and USD!

It clearly states that the price is in dollars, but that you can pay with BTC.

Yeah, I don't see how this is a thing. If the sale price was in BTC, you'd have a case. It wasn't, and you don't. They just offered a service to convert your bitcoins for you.

Basically, you sold your bitcoins to pay (in dollars) for the BFL miner. You are totally shit out of luck.

That invoice even shows the conversion rate is valid for a limited time...

He has left important parts out of the invoice shot for trolling purposes. Just add him to your ignore list. I have.

[becoin]

He has left important parts out of the invoice shot for trolling purposes.

No, sir. Everything is there. Maybe you can help and tell me what important parts were left out?

[boonies4u]

You are choosing to send your bitcoins at the time to settle a USD debt.

Pardon me, but customers don't have any USD debt to BFL neither before they place their order nor after that.

Sorry, I used the word debt incorrectly. I was meaning to say that in the transaction you are satisfying an amount in USD with bitcoin. Not satisfying an amount in bitcoin with bitcoin.

The limited validity of an invoice is something very common in commercial practice. Such a document is called Proforma Invoice. That means if a customer pays in time this Proforma Invoice AUTOMATICALLY becomes Invoice.

see

This is one of the reasons why the invoice is only valid for so long.

You should really have more business experience if you decide to continue this discussion!

You should do a lot of things. I haven't seen you do anything good or bring up any good points in this discussion.

[k9quaint]

WAAAAAHHH!!! All I do is deny and present no evidence nor specific arguments.

The volatility shouldn't matter if they are putting pre-order funds into an escrow account like they claimed. If they can't deliver for 12 months, then yes they have 12 months of currency risk that they should hedge. This is only a bizarre circumstance because BFL took the full amount in pre-orders (which is not usual) and held it for 12 months, but supposedly did not spend it.

BFL should have taken non-refundable deposits instead. Then there is no currency risk they need to hedge.

[boonies4u]

The volatility shouldn't matter if they are putting pre-order funds into an escrow account like they claimed..

Are you saying that they put BitPay funds in an escrow wallet and paypal funds in a separate escrow account?
Or are you saying that they put both in the same escrow account?
If they did the former then they shouldn't have volatility risks, but that doesn't change the fact that customers used BTC to satisfy the payment for products priced in USD.

BFL should have taken non-refundable deposits instead. Then there is no currency risk they need to hedge.

So you're saying that it was wrong for BFL to only offer refunds priced in USD? How the hell is that worse than offering no refunds at all?
I really don't understand how you all can even argue this... BFL products are priced in USD on their pages. Bitcoin prices are calculated in a case-by-case basis based on the current USD exchange rate.

IF
BFL generated unique bitcoin addresses to accept bitcoin for products priced in bitcoin
AND
BFL used paypal to accept varying USD amounts to satisfy their listed Bitcoin prices.

You might have a point.

The US Dollar is "legal tender for all debts public and private" and you will either receive bitcoin to satisfy the USD price on the invoice
OR
You will receive USD to satisfy the USD price on the invoice.

If BFL fully intended to price their products in bitcoin then it would make sense for them to refund their customers in the bitcoin price, no matter which way the customers chose to satisfy the bitcoin price.
HOWEVER
   BFL fully intended to price their products in USD therefore it would make sense for them to refund their customers in the USD price, no matter which way the customers chose to satisfy the USD price.

[QuestionAuthority]

Wow, you guys are still pissing and moaning about this issue 10 pages later? There's some really good porn out in the wild that deserves a lot more attention than this shit. Grab a bottle of lotion and have yourself a good day.

[boonies4u]

Wow, you guys are still pissing and moaning about this issue 10 pages later? There's some really good porn out in the wild that deserves a lot more attention than this shit. Grab a bottle of lotion and have yourself a good day.

I don't know about these guys, but I can multi-task!

[k9quaint]

The volatility shouldn't matter if they are putting pre-order funds into an escrow account like they claimed..

Are you saying that they put BitPay funds in an escrow wallet and paypal funds in a separate escrow account?
Or are you saying that they put both in the same escrow account?

They said that all pre-order funds were segregated from their operational funds. They did not detail how many accounts were used. I don't see why it would be difficult to have BTC in a wallet at the same time they have USD in a bank account.

If they did the former then they shouldn't have volatility risks, but that doesn't change the fact that customers used BTC to satisfy the payment for products priced in USD.

You keep saying the product was priced in USD. There is clear photographic evidence of Bitpay providing a price in BTC. BFL's operational expenses are denominated in USD. It is only an awkward situation for BFL because they took the full price of the product at pre-order instead of a deposit.

BFL should have taken non-refundable deposits instead. Then there is no currency risk they need to hedge.

So you're saying that it was wrong for BFL to only offer refunds priced in USD? How the hell is that worse than offering no refunds at all?

If BFL took a 5% deposit that is non-refundable, that would be much better for the consumer. They are only risking 5% of their capital with BFL and BFL doesn't have to worry about currency risk.

I really don't understand how you all can even argue this... BFL products are priced in USD on their pages. Bitcoin prices are calculated in a case-by-case basis based on the current USD exchange rate.

Yes. Why does that matter exactly? It doesn't matter to Paypal. Paypal uses the exchange rate at the time of purchase to calculate refunds. It doesn't matter to the customer what the product is "priced" in or how that price is calculated. If you accept gold bars as payment, you had better be prepared to refund in gold bars and not Zimbabwean dollars.

IF
BFL generated unique bitcoin addresses to accept bitcoin for products priced in bitcoin
AND
BFL used paypal to accept varying USD amounts to satisfy their listed Bitcoin prices.

You might have a point.

Avalon seemed able to sell product in BTC. They delivered it too.
Alpaca stores in Peru post prices in Neuvos Sol, and I am able to purchase those products using my USD via Paypal, the exchange rate is calculated automatically based on the current day's exchange rate. When I ask for a refund, I get back USD from Paypal.

The US Dollar is "legal tender for all debts public and private" and you will either receive bitcoin to satisfy the USD price on the invoice
OR
You will receive USD to satisfy the USD price on the invoice.

If BFL owed 200BTC back to a customer, they could send however many USD it would take to purchase 200BTC. That only works for customers in the US though. International customers might be pissed off (some countries have capital controls on other currencies)

If BFL fully intended to price their products in bitcoin then it would make sense for them to refund their customers in the bitcoin price, no matter which way the customers chose to satisfy the bitcoin price.
HOWEVER
   BFL fully intended to price their products in USD therefore it would make sense for them to refund their customers in the USD price, no matter which way the customers chose to satisfy the USD price.

Do this (assuming you are from the US):
Go to an online store in England and find a product "priced in" GBP that accepts Paypal.
Buy the product, and pay for it with USD.
Ask for a refund and see if you get USD or GBP back.

(spoiler alert: you will receive USD back even though the price on the product page was in British pounds. The amount you get back should use the exchange rate at the time of purchase.)

@QuestionAuthority My entire post was typed using only one hand  

[QuestionAuthority]

Wow, you guys are still pissing and moaning about this issue 10 pages later? There's some really good porn out in the wild that deserves a lot more attention than this shit. Grab a bottle of lotion and have yourself a good day.

I don't know about these guys, but I can multi-task!

rolf

[boonies4u]

https://bitpay.com/terms

9. Refunds and Adjustments.

Refund Procedures. In the event that you wish to issue a refund to a purchaser, BitPay can handle this. You can decide to issue a partial refund or the full amount of the initial purchase. You can also decide whether to issue the original amount of the invoice in  your local currency or in the number of Bitcoins paid. If you do not have enough funds in your BitPay account to cover the refund, BitPay may require you to deposit Bitcoins into your BitPay account to cover the refund to the purchaser. Any required currency conversion during the refund process will be calculated at a spot rate determined by BitPay, following the guidelines found here: https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-exchange-rates.
Disclosure of Your Refund Policy. Merchants are required to have a clear refund policy for their customers. We recommend you refund the amount of the initial purchase in the currency in which the item was priced.
Purchaser Complaints. Purchasers filing complaints about a purchase will be forwarded to you for resolution. BitPay reserves the right to terminate accounts which receive excessive complaints.

The volatility shouldn't matter if they are putting pre-order funds into an escrow account like they claimed..

Are you saying that they put BitPay funds in an escrow wallet and paypal funds in a separate escrow account?
Or are you saying that they put both in the same escrow account?

They said that all pre-order funds were segregated from their operational funds. They did not detail how many accounts were used. I don't see why it would be difficult to have BTC in a wallet at the same time they have USD in a bank account.

My point was that you don't know how the escrow was set up. If it was in USD, it would be unreasonable to expect BFL to repurchase the bitcoins to repay a customer that paid in bitcoins.

If they did the former then they shouldn't have volatility risks, but that doesn't change the fact that customers used BTC to satisfy the payment for products priced in USD.

You keep saying the product was priced in USD. There is clear photographic evidence of Bitpay providing a price in BTC. BFL's operational expenses are denominated in USD. It is only an awkward situation for BFL because they took the full price of the product at pre-order instead of a deposit.

BitPay displays the customer the number of bitcoins they need to send to satisfy a USD price.

BFL should have taken non-refundable deposits instead. Then there is no currency risk they need to hedge.

So you're saying that it was wrong for BFL to only offer refunds priced in USD? How the hell is that worse than offering no refunds at all?

If BFL took a 5% deposit that is non-refundable, that would be much better for the consumer. They are only risking 5% of their capital with BFL and BFL doesn't have to worry about currency risk.

BFL doesn't have to worry about risk refunding customers because they have the funds in escrow. BFL will refund based on the currency they used to price their products. The escrow does not need to be brought up again.

I really don't understand how you all can even argue this... BFL products are priced in USD on their pages. Bitcoin prices are calculated in a case-by-case basis based on the current USD exchange rate.

Yes. Why does that matter exactly? It doesn't matter to Paypal. Paypal uses the exchange rate at the time of purchase to calculate refunds. It doesn't matter to the customer what the product is "priced" in or how that price is calculated. If you accept gold bars as payment, you had better be prepared to refund in gold bars and not Zimbabwean dollars.

If I were to accept gold bars as payment for a product I priced in (something that is not gold bars). I would refund them back an amount equaling the price in (that something that is not gold bars) that they paid.

Gold is a bad example, because it can be expensive to ship and is not as easily divisible as bitcoin.

If someone came to me and asked me to send them the gold bar back after a ~10x increase in value of the gold bar... I would tell them to take a long walk off of a short pier.

IF
BFL generated unique bitcoin addresses to accept bitcoin for products priced in bitcoin
AND
BFL used paypal to accept varying USD amounts to satisfy their listed Bitcoin prices.

You might have a point.

Avalon seemed able to sell product in BTC. They delivered it too.
Alpaca stores in Peru post prices in Neuvos Sol, and I am able to purchase those products using my USD via Paypal, the exchange rate is calculated automatically based on the current day's exchange rate. When I ask for a refund, I get back USD from Paypal.

BFL could hav easily been able to sell a product priced in BTC, however they didn't.
BitPay allows the Merchant to choose what currency to base refunds off of. SEE TOP/BOTTOM.

The US Dollar is "legal tender for all debts public and private" and you will either receive bitcoin to satisfy the USD price on the invoice
OR
You will receive USD to satisfy the USD price on the invoice.

If BFL owed 200BTC back to a customer, they could send however many USD it would take to purchase 200BTC. That only works for customers in the US though. International customers might be pissed off (some countries have capital controls on other currencies)

They could refund in the amount of BTC a customer sent. But they don't have to. SEE TOP/BOTTOM.

If BFL fully intended to price their products in bitcoin then it would make sense for them to refund their customers in the bitcoin price, no matter which way the customers chose to satisfy the bitcoin price.
HOWEVER
   BFL fully intended to price their products in USD therefore it would make sense for them to refund their customers in the USD price, no matter which way the customers chose to satisfy the USD price.

Do this (assuming you are from the US):
Go to an online store in England and find a product "priced in" GBP that accepts Paypal.
Buy the product, and pay for it with USD.
Ask for a refund and see if you get USD or GBP back.

(spoiler alert: you will receive USD back even though the price on the product page was in British pounds. The amount you get back should use the exchange rate at the time of purchase.)

@QuestionAuthority My entire post was typed using only one hand  

SEE TOP/BOTTOM.
https://bitpay.com/terms

9. Refunds and Adjustments.

Refund Procedures. In the event that you wish to issue a refund to a purchaser, BitPay can handle this. You can decide to issue a partial refund or the full amount of the initial purchase. You can also decide whether to issue the original amount of the invoice in  your local currency or in the number of Bitcoins paid. If you do not have enough funds in your BitPay account to cover the refund, BitPay may require you to deposit Bitcoins into your BitPay account to cover the refund to the purchaser. Any required currency conversion during the refund process will be calculated at a spot rate determined by BitPay, following the guidelines found here: https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-exchange-rates.
Disclosure of Your Refund Policy. Merchants are required to have a clear refund policy for their customers. We recommend you refund the amount of the initial purchase in the currency in which the item was priced.
Purchaser Complaints. Purchasers filing complaints about a purchase will be forwarded to you for resolution. BitPay reserves the right to terminate accounts which receive excessive complaints.

edit: made edits to save space, and answer last quote.

[k9quaint]

https://bitpay.com/terms

9. Refunds and Adjustments.

Refund Procedures. In the event that you wish to issue a refund to a purchaser, BitPay can handle this. You can decide to issue a partial refund or the full amount of the initial purchase. You can also decide whether to issue the original amount of the invoice in  your local currency or in the number of Bitcoins paid. If you do not have enough funds in your BitPay account to cover the refund, BitPay may require you to deposit Bitcoins into your BitPay account to cover the refund to the purchaser. Any required currency conversion during the refund process will be calculated at a spot rate determined by BitPay, following the guidelines found here: https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-exchange-rates.
Disclosure of Your Refund Policy. Merchants are required to have a clear refund policy for their customers. We recommend you refund the amount of the initial purchase in the currency in which the item was priced.
Purchaser Complaints. Purchasers filing complaints about a purchase will be forwarded to you for resolution. BitPay reserves the right to terminate accounts which receive excessive complaints.

Excellent link, I will add it to my list. The quote you bolded stands out.
Or in the number of Bitcoins paid.  Bitpay made it possible for BFL to issue refunds in Bitcoins for the number of Bitcoins paid. BFL chose not to.

If I were to accept gold bars as payment for a product I priced in (something that is not gold bars). I would refund them back an amount equaling the price in (that something that is not gold bars) that they paid.

Gold is a bad example, because it can be expensive to ship and is not as easily divisible as bitcoin.

If someone came to me and asked me to send them the gold bar back after a ~10x increase in value of the gold bar... I would tell them to take a long walk off of a short pier.

This is the root of the problem. That example you gave is a contract by barter. If you dissolve such a contract (by telling them to take a long walk off the pier), you have to give the party back what they gave you. That means either all the gold, or enough money to buy the amount of gold they gave you. You can't just give them some of their gold back because you think you deserve some based on current exchange rates.

It isn't fair to give customers who used Paypal back their money with the original exchange rate and the customers who used Bitcoin back their money using current exchange rates just because the current exchange rate now favors BFL.

[k9quaint]

https://bitpay.com/terms

9. Refunds and Adjustments.

Refund Procedures. In the event that you wish to issue a refund to a purchaser, BitPay can handle this. You can decide to issue a partial refund or the full amount of the initial purchase. You can also decide whether to issue the original amount of the invoice in  your local currency or in the number of Bitcoins paid. If you do not have enough funds in your BitPay account to cover the refund, BitPay may require you to deposit Bitcoins into your BitPay account to cover the refund to the purchaser. Any required currency conversion during the refund process will be calculated at a spot rate determined by BitPay, following the guidelines found here: https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-exchange-rates.
Disclosure of Your Refund Policy. Merchants are required to have a clear refund policy for their customers. We recommend you refund the amount of the initial purchase in the currency in which the item was priced.
Purchaser Complaints. Purchasers filing complaints about a purchase will be forwarded to you for resolution. BitPay reserves the right to terminate accounts which receive excessive complaints.

Yes. This is exactly what I was referring to. Everyone has been saying that BFL was forced by Bitpay to convert to USD and could only refund in USD.
That is not true. Thank you for finding that for me.

BFL had the choice whether to convert the purchase from BTC to USD. We don't know what they did, they might have kept it all in BTC.
BFL had the choice as to whether to refund in USD or in BTC. They chose USD.

BFL's Paypal customers who pay with something other than USD and ask for a refund get made whole using the exchange rate at the time of purchase.
BFL's BTC customers only get back some of their BTC using the exchange rate at the time of refund.
All I am asking is that BFL (who claimed they were not spending their customers money to do development) treat their BTC customers the same way they treat their PayPal customers.

[boonies4u]

https://bitpay.com/terms

9. Refunds and Adjustments.

Refund Procedures. In the event that you wish to issue a refund to a purchaser, BitPay can handle this. You can decide to issue a partial refund or the full amount of the initial purchase. You can also decide whether to issue the original amount of the invoice in  your local currency or in the number of Bitcoins paid. If you do not have enough funds in your BitPay account to cover the refund, BitPay may require you to deposit Bitcoins into your BitPay account to cover the refund to the purchaser. Any required currency conversion during the refund process will be calculated at a spot rate determined by BitPay, following the guidelines found here: https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-exchange-rates.
Disclosure of Your Refund Policy. Merchants are required to have a clear refund policy for their customers. We recommend you refund the amount of the initial purchase in the currency in which the item was priced.
Purchaser Complaints. Purchasers filing complaints about a purchase will be forwarded to you for resolution. BitPay reserves the right to terminate accounts which receive excessive complaints.

Excellent link, I will add it to my list. The quote you bolded stands out.
Or in the number of Bitcoins paid.  Bitpay made it possible for BFL to issue refunds in Bitcoins for the number of Bitcoins paid. BFL chose not to.

Yet people who purchased with BitPay were fully aware that BFL could issue the original amount of the invoice in (BitPay's) local currency. Due Diligence is important.

If I were to accept gold bars as payment for a product I priced in (something that is not gold bars). I would refund them back an amount equaling the price in (that something that is not gold bars) that they paid.

Gold is a bad example, because it can be expensive to ship and is not as easily divisible as bitcoin.

If someone came to me and asked me to send them the gold bar back after a ~10x increase in value of the gold bar... I would tell them to take a long walk off of a short pier.

This is the root of the problem. That example you gave is a contract by barter. If you dissolve such a contract (by telling them to take a long walk off the pier), you have to give the party back what they gave you. That means either all the gold, or enough money to buy the amount of gold they gave you. You can't just give them some of their gold back because you think you deserve some based on current exchange rates.

The example I gave was one where something is used to satisfy the price of something else. If I were to use a BitPay for gold, reimbursing them the original gold bar might be impossible. I would refund them that price. I would only send them back the gold if the change in value of the gold did not warrant breaking it down to "make change" or sending something alongside the gold to makeup the difference.

Yes. This is exactly what I was referring to. Everyone has been saying that BFL was forced by Bitpay to convert to USD and could only refund in USD.
That is not true. Thank you for finding that for me.

BFL had the choice whether to convert the purchase from BTC to USD. We don't know what they did, they might have kept it all in BTC.
BFL had the choice as to whether to refund in USD or in BTC. They chose USD.

BFL's Paypal customers who pay with something other than USD and ask for a refund get made whole using the exchange rate at the time of purchase.
BFL's BTC customers only get back some of their BTC using the exchange rate at the time of refund.
All I am asking is that BFL (who claimed they were not spending their customers money to do development) treat their BTC customers the same way they treat their PayPal customers.

I have not said that BFL were forced to convert to USD or refund in USD. I have spoken with Tony of BitPay, I know this is not the case.

Customers of BFL chose to use BitPay despite the fact that BFL had the choice as to whether to refund in USD or in BTC. Those unaware of this have failed at performing their Due Diligence.