[PRE-ANN] Stone - DAG Data-Structured Private Cryptocurrency

[Kencha77]

I'm kinda interested with this idea. Gonna watch this thread and see how it goes. Also, good luck Felix

[djpitagora]

>- easy to manipulate the price up by making fake transactions to your self

Price has nothing to do with transfer of value.



>- easy to crash the market by flooding it with millions of transactions to stop all processing

It's not easy, really, each transaction you send you have to do a PoW, so millions of transactions spamming would be a very expensive thing to do, just as RaiBlocks.

1) On the price manipulation topic: if there is no real cost for a transaction all you have to do is pay the spread for the exchange. As seen in other 'free' currencies sometimes even exchanges engage in price pumping, especially if costs are 0 or close to 0.

2) On the flooding with transactions topic:
How complex will the PoW be to deter an attacker from DoSing the network with 1 cent transactions to himself? We have 3 cases here to discuss:
- an individual with only a few machines available (probably rented in a cloud)
- organized crime with a botnet (think Russian business network)
- unfriendly government

Sorry for asking uncomfortable questions. A lot of users/fans of various coins may consider this FUD, but in the long run (say 10 years from now) the only coins that will still exist are most likely the ones that manage to check all boxes in decentralization (and resistance to government attack), scalability, and low costs. To put things in perspective,  bitcoin right now fails at all 3 (4 mining pools own 51%, there is a huge backlog of unprocessed transactions, and fees are as high as 100$ now).

[Afkbio]

1) On the price manipulation topic: if there is no real cost for a transaction all you have to do is pay the spread for the exchange. As seen in other 'free' currencies sometimes even exchanges engage in price pumping, especially if costs are 0 or close to 0.

What ? Costs are not 0 if fees are 0. And this has litterally nothing to do with fee-less transfer. Exchanges fees and transfer fees are completely different things. And to pump&dump a coin, it's costing you money. Because you have to buy the asset.

2) On the flooding with transactions topic:
How complex will the PoW be to deter an attacker from DoSing the network with 1 cent transactions to himself? We have 3 cases here to discuss:
- an individual with only a few machines available (probably rented in a cloud)
- organized crime with a botnet (think Russian business network)
- unfriendly government

PoW is complex enough to make it expensive. PoW difficulty can be adjusted so it becomes unfeasible even to a large botnet.

[nonconformist]

as a big fan of XRB this project really resonates with me. I like the honesty of the dev. This might be the earliest I was able to be part or watch a project grow. Please dev continue with what you're doing. I will be donating when I've gotten some funds. I like to support this project.

[Modifeed]

Like the convergence of ideas good luck op!

[Skew]

I was originally interested in this, but on second look this guy doesn't even know what DAG stands for it. It's directED. Jesus christ.

And 30% to donators?

Scam. Run.

[Anemonean]

very interested in this idea and happy I found this project so early. I made an account just to show my appreciation for this idea. Love the name too. I wish you could join up with raiblocks and switch the whole name and branding over to stone, haha. They recently mentioned they are open to rebranding in an ama, Wishful thinking I know.

As far as distribution goes instead of a percentage to donors or an air drop to XRB holders or both, why not go with the Raiblocks capcha faucet distribution method? It seems like the fairest way to do a coin distribution where everyone begins on the same foot and bots or whales cant manipulate the market to get bigger stakes. If you wanted to give preferential treatment to early donors (which would probably encourage more as well) you could open up the capcha to donors first for a period (or up to a percentage of max coins is reached) before doing the public faucet. Just an idea.

Do you need any logo work done? I like your current stone logo/name quite a bit but I mean something that can become the logo representation of the coin.

[xibeijan]

Not really sure about the name STONE.

Stones sink and can't fly to the moon.  Stones are dead.

[JamesMangan]

What about asteroids, theyre further than the moon and theyre basically stones.. Hopefully this is a real project.

[xibeijan]

A fair amount of how XRB works depends on being able to see balances of accounts and their respective chains.  How can delegates vote on whether a anonymous transfer was valid if they cannot see the amounts?

Please let the developer proposing this project answer.

[monsanto]

Not really sure about the name STONE.

Stones sink and can't fly to the moon.  Stones are dead.

maybe just add a "d" to the end... call it Stoned 

[blockchainben]

Will be interesting.  Time will tell.  But yes an important question is the devs programming background.  Even a link to other unrelated projects would be a boon for trust

[kamiyama]

Wow, there are so many Newbie!
We’ll just have to wait and see what happens.

[CoinFreedom]

@Felixando

Have you worked on the XRB project in the past? If so, are you the one who decided to split and do his own thing when they cancelled the faucet?
Do you know Colin personally?

[xibeijan]

Wow, there are so many Newbie!
We’ll just have to wait and see what happens.

Exactly... tons of newbies... maybe of them appear strangely knowledgeable.

[djpitagora]

1) On the price manipulation topic: if there is no real cost for a transaction all you have to do is pay the spread for the exchange. As seen in other 'free' currencies sometimes even exchanges engage in price pumping, especially if costs are 0 or close to 0.

What ? Costs are not 0 if fees are 0. And this has litterally nothing to do with fee-less transfer. Exchanges fees and transfer fees are completely different things. And to pump&dump a coin, it's costing you money. Because you have to buy the asset.

2) On the flooding with transactions topic:
How complex will the PoW be to deter an attacker from DoSing the network with 1 cent transactions to himself? We have 3 cases here to discuss:
- an individual with only a few machines available (probably rented in a cloud)
- organized crime with a botnet (think Russian business network)
- unfriendly government

PoW is complex enough to make it expensive. PoW difficulty can be adjusted so it becomes unfeasible even to a large botnet.

how much computation does the PoW require that makes the attack unfeasible? Are we talking seconds or minutes with average PC hardware? And if it's very complex will you support mobile wallets? How many TPS will you support?

[rusbus]

I donated because the fundamentals are good. A privacy-based DAG coin called Stone. There is really a lot of risks donating at this point (only an idea, anonymous dev, single small thread) so 30% is commensurate in my opinion. Of course, all that matters now is development and product release. There are hundreds of similar threads that have never gone anywhere. Good luck dev! You have my support.

[felixando]

Hello all,

I appreciate the technical conversation going back and forward in this thread, its good to see some conversation which is not just about details, release dates or how to acquire coins. I appreciate all the PM's, however i am limited to 10 per hour, so its taking longer than expected to reply to them all! but i will respond to the majority.

Not really sure about the name STONE.

Stones sink and can't fly to the moon.  Stones are dead.

Thanks for your input, the name Stone was derived from RaiStones.

Not all Stones sink  

Hi,

I did a (small-ish) donation before the announcement of 30% and tbh I don't really like it. I think it's a bit too much and it will weight too much towards buying the coins/ an ico where 30% goes to developer instead of doing a donation for the sake of the project and helping the dev.

Anyways best of luck, looking forward to it and curious how this will develop.

I appreciate your input, if people are unhappy with the 30% we can modify this, i am not 100% of everything so far, adjustments can be made if the community feels they may be unfair or unreliable.

A fair amount of how XRB works depends on being able to see balances of accounts and their respective chains.  How can delegates vote on whether a anonymous transfer was valid if they cannot see the amounts?

Please let the developer proposing this project answer.

That's correct, however they only realistically need to communicate to each other, not the network as a whole, i will make this work.

very interested in this idea and happy I found this project so early. I made an account just to show my appreciation for this idea. Love the name too. I wish you could join up with raiblocks and switch the whole name and branding over to stone, haha. They recently mentioned they are open to rebranding in an ama, Wishful thinking I know.

As far as distribution goes instead of a percentage to donors or an air drop to XRB holders or both, why not go with the Raiblocks capcha faucet distribution method? It seems like the fairest way to do a coin distribution where everyone begins on the same foot and bots or whales cant manipulate the market to get bigger stakes. If you wanted to give preferential treatment to early donors (which would probably encourage more as well) you could open up the capcha to donors first for a period (or up to a percentage of max coins is reached) before doing the public faucet. Just an idea.

Do you need any logo work done? I like your current stone logo/name quite a bit but I mean something that can become the logo representation of the coin.

Thanks! ah i dislike the faucet method, it creates too much monetary stress around the community, and bases the whole project around earning money, id prefer if this project was about the tech, and about the community.

You are welcome to create a logo if you have the time, i feel i should deliver a test release before any design work should be done.

DD time

How much development experience do you have?

What languages and libraries will you use to build it?

I cannot see this project being much of a success without smart contracts.  Do you have a plan to add this functionality?

My questions have gone unanswered.

I was going to ask the same thing. What experience you have and on what languages?

I've only been a qualified software engineer for the last 13 years for a forbes top 200 company, ill let the code speak for itself.

I have a question about the free transaction aspect. I see this as a danger to the network. If it's free you can do two nasty things:
- easy to manipulate the price up by making fake transactions to your self
- easy to crash the market by flooding it with millions of transactions to stop all processing

How are you going to address this, and do you think it's worth addressing considering there are already 2 DAG coins that are "free"?

I cannot manage the exchange side of things, i assume exchanges will have some kind of fee for buys/sells to prevent fake volume. Correct there are 2 other DAG coins, possibly 3, Stone is based around anonymity, think Monero, in the very start.

I'm kinda interested with this idea. Gonna watch this thread and see how it goes. Also, good luck Felix

Thankyou!



On a side note; to my knowledge there is a Discord: https://discord.gg/auFsMSD - i do not have time to be in there at all times and answer all questions but i will pop in from time to time.

[xibeijan]

Thanks for your input, the name Stone was derived from RaiStones.

Not all Stones sink  

I think you should go for something with more diffientiation, like RaiSnarks or RAZK.  Orrrr just something unrelated like Nectar?

A fair amount of how XRB works depends on being able to see balances of accounts and their respective chains.  How can delegates vote on whether a anonymous transfer was valid if they cannot see the amounts?

Please let the developer proposing this project answer.

That's correct, however they only realistically need to communicate to each other, not the network as a whole, i will make this work.

RaiBlocks can only avoid the Sybil attack by balance-weighting the POS mechanism.  This cannot be done if the balances are hidden using ZKsnarks.  How do you propose to solve this?

[BitMonkey]

RaiBlocks can only avoid the Sybil attack by balance-weighting the POS mechanism.  This cannot be done if the balances are hidden using ZKsnarks.  How do you propose to solve this?

One possible solution is having to reveal balance to participate in PoS yourself, or to use snarks to delegate to a chosen voter (which can reveal the sum he'd been delegated but not from which account it came).