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Author Topic: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining)  (Read 1058007 times)
Ytterbium
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September 15, 2013, 11:51:56 AM
 #9641

If you don't think a board can work without visible traces on the top layer can you explain how the bitfury H-board actually works, when there are no visible, top-layer traces between the chips and the capacitors or anything else, except for closed loops that connect back to themselves?


My apologies if I'm wrong, it would be a good thing if I was. But the board you presented has a few things that the ones posted by Labcoin do not, such as:
- Soldered chips (optional)
- Other soldered components (optional)
- Chips have traces running from their pads, visibly (optional)
- Vias visible showing the board is clearly multi-layer (optional)
- Several components around each chip (optional - could be Labcoin are super pro and don't need anything outside the chip package or they are on the other side/other board)
- An interface array of pads where power connects (required - they only show one power pin per each chip)
- An interface array of pads where the other board connects (required)

If those things are real and they work, that's quite an efficient and breakthrough design that nobody so far has made for bitcoin.

Right. I have said all along that the PCBs look strange to me. However, I was only pointing out that you can't actually say that the chip pads are completely disconnected from the rest of the board, with the implication that Labcoin is a total scam.  While there are some visible traces on the H-board, they're only on one side of the chip, the other four sides aren't visibly connected. (Of course, on that board it's possible the traces just can't be seen because they're under the chip and connected to visible vias.)

As far as external interface headers, they may just be on the other side of the board.

Anyway, people have speculated that this was somehow a botched job from the PCB fabricators - that either Labcoin or the fabricators themselves somehow messed up.  That seems entirely plausible, and if so all Labcoin needs to do is fix the screwup and order new boards. I certainly hope that's all that's wrong, and if that's the case labcoin isn't actually in all that much trouble.

From reading your posts it seemed as though you thought there was no way the PCB could possibly function, like you didn't think there could be any vias hidden under the solder pads (which there could be) or anything at all on the other side (like headers for communication)

It was kind of annoying to see a post from someone who didn't know the difference between vias and traces and seemingly unaware of the fact that you can put things on both sides of a board acting as though they somehow had the ability to definitively declare that the board couldn't possibly work.  

(If we saw the other side of the board and it was blank, we would be able to say that. On the other hand, if it has data output headers that would show how it could work – all the more reason why it's annoying they refuse to show any more pics, which is just completely ridiculous, IMO. )

Quote
True. I could make a fake design, get a board, find some tray of 44 pins chips to match the board, and post some hand-shaky pictures with an old DSLR that can't clean dust off the sensor.

But if I did that, there would be discrepancies between real designs and my fake design (me being incompetent at this as demonstrated by the users of this forum in reply to my posts) . Such as bad layout, unconnected pads, missing pads, missing logic connectors, oversized elements, undersized elements, non-standard design choices, that could totally blow up my fake design pictures.

Sure, but it's hard to imagine that anyone who knows enough about PCB design to successfully send a Gerber file to a PCB fabrication place would be able to come up with a much more "normal" looking PCB.

What annoys me about the "labcoin is a scam" people is that they act as though Labcoin is just some random person in their mom's basement doing nothing at all other then photoshopping pictures of chips and boards  and everything else, and that the whole thing was a scam from the beginning. And while there clearly are actual problems, a lot of the stuff that the FUDsters have been saying has been total B.S. Someone was saying that the photos of the board were photoshopped

Now, on the other hand - it's possible that a company might start out legitimate and gradually shift and become scammy over time in order to cover up mistakes, rather then admitting them and losing money.  And for now that is a real risk with labcoin, given what we've seen so far. It's especially worrisome that Labcoin (the user) is directly asking people to buy shares, saying they're cheap and so on.

I am not at all trying to defend Labcoin here.  They need to present the technical information about their boards and chips (In fact, I think they should share the gerber files for those boards so we can see exactly what's going on)

But, the most plausible explanation is just some screwup with the PCBs, and that they are working to fix it. Not that they are a bunch of scammer/trolls who don't know anything at all about electronics,  yet somehow managed get circuit boards manufactured with no actual connections on them.

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Ytterbium
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September 15, 2013, 11:57:23 AM
 #9642

Did you even bother to read Chinese laws?


For me, the only plausible explanation is they don't have full control of their assembly and mining partners. All they have in hand are some sample chips and boards. Their parter in China refuse giving any photos taken in their side, and their reason or excuse may be  they don't want disclose any evidence that they are involved in this project, since illegal IPO may lead to death penalty in China.

No need. Americans know everything

Labcoin is in HongKong, not mainland china.  HK has a far more western-style legal system, and no death penalty. People in HK have a high degree of civil/human rights

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September 15, 2013, 12:02:07 PM
 #9643

...
Right. I have said all along that the PCBs look strange to me. However, I was only pointing out that you can't actually say that the chip pads are completely disconnected from the rest of the board, with the implication that Labcoin is a total scam.  While there are some visible traces on the H-board, they're only on one side of the chip, the other four sides aren't visibly connected. (Of course, on that board it's possible the traces just can't be seen because they're under the chip and connected to visible vias.)
...

You understand that the three sides where you can't see any traces, the bitfury chips are just power, right?


Edit:  If it's not obvious, the top layer of the Bitfury board is Vdd plane -- nothing else needed to hook up the power pins, no vias needed Smiley

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September 15, 2013, 12:08:15 PM
 #9644

can i has a pic of a full assembled miner for christmas please, labcoin?
Shit is getting worse by the minute. They are trying to fool you and fail and come up with the next make up.
Ofc they already got your cash but that doesnt prevent them from trying to use their own shares to make even more money of this.
Trade with high caution!
We really need burnside to make a statement on the shares of the company. Maybe they just moved them out to another account, sold them in high times, flopped a news, bought back in etc. to generate even more cash. This is a farce.

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demzie
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September 15, 2013, 12:38:07 PM
 #9645

can i has a pic of a full assembled miner for christmas please, labcoin?
Shit is getting worse by the minute. They are trying to fool you and fail and come up with the next make up.
Ofc they already got your cash but that doesnt prevent them from trying to use their own shares to make even more money of this.
Trade with high caution!
We really need burnside to make a statement on the shares of the company. Maybe they just moved them out to another account, sold them in high times, flopped a news, bought back in etc. to generate even more cash. This is a farce.


Who the F* are you? they need to answer to? FUD alert! Again and again, new accounts online!
aquarius
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September 15, 2013, 01:15:50 PM
 #9646

Did you even bother to read Chinese laws?


For me, the only plausible explanation is they don't have full control of their assembly and mining partners. All they have in hand are some sample chips and boards. Their parter in China refuse giving any photos taken in their side, and their reason or excuse may be  they don't want disclose any evidence that they are involved in this project, since illegal IPO may lead to death penalty in China.

No need. Americans know everything

Labcoin is in HongKong, not mainland china.  HK has a far more western-style legal system, and no death penalty
. People in HK have a high degree of civil/human rights
+1 for importance
BitThink
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September 15, 2013, 01:48:59 PM
 #9647

Did you even bother to read Chinese laws?


For me, the only plausible explanation is they don't have full control of their assembly and mining partners. All they have in hand are some sample chips and boards. Their parter in China refuse giving any photos taken in their side, and their reason or excuse may be  they don't want disclose any evidence that they are involved in this project, since illegal IPO may lead to death penalty in China.

No need. Americans know everything

Labcoin is in HongKong, not mainland china.  HK has a far more western-style legal system, and no death penalty
. People in HK have a high degree of civil/human rights
+1 for importance

Engineers are mainland Chinese citizen, and the mining location is supposed to be in a university in Shen Zhen.
That's the reason I said the mainland china side does not want to show any photos jeopardize the secret of their identity, location, or facility.
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September 15, 2013, 01:49:16 PM
 #9648

Did you even bother to read Chinese laws?


For me, the only plausible explanation is they don't have full control of their assembly and mining partners. All they have in hand are some sample chips and boards. Their parter in China refuse giving any photos taken in their side, and their reason or excuse may be  they don't want disclose any evidence that they are involved in this project, since illegal IPO may lead to death penalty in China.

No need. Americans know everything

Labcoin is in HongKong, not mainland china.  HK has a far more western-style legal system, and no death penalty. People in HK have a high degree of civil/human rights

Except the fact that Labcoin is based in HK doesn't do shit for their mainland China partners. Also labcoin's facility is located in mainland China, not HK(where high real estate price and utility price will make this operation unfeasible).

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
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September 15, 2013, 02:14:49 PM
 #9649

Can anyone remind me where AsicMiner is located? You know, the company that has set the bar when it comes to mining operations, delivering hardware without doing pre orders, and which has consistently paid high dividends to their shareholders while their share price increased 5000% since the IPO?


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September 15, 2013, 02:21:24 PM
 #9650

Can anyone remind me where AsicMiner is located? You know, the company that has set the bar when it comes to mining operations, delivering hardware without doing pre orders, and which has consistently paid high dividends to their shareholders while their share price increased 5000% since the IPO?



Asicminer is in Shen Zhen too. But their IPO happened when BTC was much less popular and before the death penalty case. Moreover, they have returned much more than the IPO value to the invester. Illegal collecting fund is normally only sued if it caused large loss in China. Moreover, friedcat is also considering a offshore company in another country (according to rockxie's leaked slide).
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September 15, 2013, 03:12:48 PM
 #9651

How can they just let this go on and on, watch people leave, sell their shares, see the price crash and do absolutely nothing about it?
How is this possible? Has anybody ever seen something like this?

Its price is not a very relevant factor in its adoption....
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September 15, 2013, 03:15:39 PM
 #9652

How can they just let this go on and on, watch people leave, sell their shares, see the price crash and do absolutely nothing about it?
How is this possible? Has anybody ever seen something like this?

If Labcoin doesn't have the intention to release new batches of shares soon, then it doesn't matter much what the share price does in the short term. The company has their money from the IPO in the pocket and while the owners will prefer their shares to increase in price, if their focus is on the long-term and/or repayment of share value through dividends, then short term drops, regardless of how large they are, don't affect them that much.
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September 15, 2013, 03:20:41 PM
 #9653

How can they just let this go on and on, watch people leave, sell their shares, see the price crash and do absolutely nothing about it?
How is this possible? Has anybody ever seen something like this?

If Labcoin doesn't have the intention to release new batches of shares soon, then it doesn't matter much what the share price does in the short term. The company has their money from the IPO in the pocket and while the owners will prefer their shares to increase in price, if their focus is on the long-term and/or repayment of share value through dividends, then short term drops, regardless of how large they are, don't affect them that much.

Still, it is so extremely easy to stop this and actually make the price go up.

Its price is not a very relevant factor in its adoption....
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September 15, 2013, 03:31:16 PM
 #9654

How can they just let this go on and on, watch people leave, sell their shares, see the price crash and do absolutely nothing about it?
How is this possible? Has anybody ever seen something like this?

If Labcoin doesn't have the intention to release new batches of shares soon, then it doesn't matter much what the share price does in the short term. The company has their money from the IPO in the pocket and while the owners will prefer their shares to increase in price, if their focus is on the long-term and/or repayment of share value through dividends, then short term drops, regardless of how large they are, don't affect them that much.

Still, it is so extremely easy to stop this and actually make the price go up.

Exactly, it takes less than 5 minutes to put all doubts to rest, but they insist on posting endless "update of an update" but ZERO proof. Then the only logical conclusion is that they can not prove something that does not exist.

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
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September 15, 2013, 03:33:47 PM
 #9655

500 pages is not far away, keep up the good work guys!

Compared to 24 hours ago, the silence over the last hours suggests that our beloved bears are done.


The silence over the past few hours suggests that the ActM cheer-leading squad has taken a break from Labcoin, probably due to the fact that they have issues with their own share price - currently down to the IPO level on BTCT.

In the last 90 pages, 90% of the posts were posted by the heavily invested ActM FUDsters.

And those guys were sooo dumb. A lot of them thought that if the price of labcoin crashed, people would take the bitcoins they got selling it and buy ActM.  What actually happened is that people got a serious wakeup call about the risks of investing in companies like this.  

ASICMiner had enormous margins to get things right. In fact, not only was no-one hashing when Friedcat got started, I don't think anyone was even hashing by the time he got his first chips (I don't remember if Avalon had shipped it's first demo boxes or not)

Now? The competition is absolutely massive.  Not just far worse then 2012, but far worse then even June or July. Not just KnC but Cointerra and HashFast, plus self-funded 'semi-private' companies focused on mining with their own chips like BTCGarden, Alydian, and Bitmine.ch.  There's really no room for error if you're going to start in November.

Obviously, if you look at what's going on with labcoin, it's not going to make people just blindly invest in ActM, it's going to make them a lot more aware of the potential risks. Seeing the titanic sink isn't going to make you want to immediately hop on the Olympus.

Of course, a lot of them are pretty damn dumb, but maybe with the price of their beloved ActM continuing to tank they actually figured it out. That would explain why they've been so quiet after their 'victory.'

Or, maybe they just think they've won and stopped paying attention.

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September 15, 2013, 03:39:43 PM
 #9656

Did you even bother to read Chinese laws?


For me, the only plausible explanation is they don't have full control of their assembly and mining partners. All they have in hand are some sample chips and boards. Their parter in China refuse giving any photos taken in their side, and their reason or excuse may be  they don't want disclose any evidence that they are involved in this project, since illegal IPO may lead to death penalty in China.

No need. Americans know everything

Labcoin is in HongKong, not mainland china.  HK has a far more western-style legal system, and no death penalty. People in HK have a high degree of civil/human rights

Except the fact that Labcoin is based in HK doesn't do shit for their mainland China partners. Also labcoin's facility is located in mainland China, not HK(where high real estate price and utility price will make this operation unfeasible).

Well, so what? Even if Sam was doing something that might violate Chinese law if he were in china, how is that going to affect Howard Wang?

I mean, if the CEO of Google started blasting the Chinese government (which is illegal in china, of course) it's not like Google's Chinese employees are going to get in trouble.

I doubt it's illegal to simply be the employee of a company that solicits investment funds while being in China.  What made the BTCGarden guy cancel his IPO was the accusation that he was soliciting investments.  Not just in bitcoin, but some forum troll was running around claiming that he was telling people to buy BTC with Yuan on his exchange, then use that BTC to buy BTCGarden shares, in essence directly soliciting Yuan investment.

That is the accusation that got him to pull the IPO.

That might also explain why Wang doesn't want to post on the forum. He could be worried about legal issues if he's seen as being involved in the solicitation of investment money.

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September 15, 2013, 04:09:30 PM
 #9657

Still, it is so extremely easy to stop this and actually make the price go up.

I talked to a few other investors and one thing is clear, "we would do a few things differently and could easily end the drama". But the thing is, we don't run this company and we don't know how it is like to run Labcoin and what the given circumstances are. We can only assume and conclude, but the divergence between expectations and what Labcoin has given us is huge. I am pretty sure they don't want to do harm to us, really. I'm almost convinced it is not the case, so the question of the day is: "why is that so?"

I'll leave you with TheSwede75's quote:

NOT AN UPDATE, JUST PERSONAL OPINION:

To be brutally honest. I realize that has been delays, and I also realize that communication has not always been what I wish we could provide. BUT, supporting day trading or providing updates at the whim of every single person that owns a share is just not priority.

If you do not believe Labcoin can deliver, or that somehow the team is running the world most advanced long-con ever you are well in your right to sell your shares.

The project is fully funded and I have personally 100% faith that Sam and the developers can and will deliver and though mining has been delayed, every single (even the most pessimistic) calculation I have done makes selling my shares anywhere near current price a bad idea.

I am not saying this to influence share price, but simply because it is getting a little tiring to see people yell and scream completely irrelevant information.

The chips that have been developed perform well within variance of what can be expected, boards have arrive and are arriving as we speak and mining will according to the team be up and running at production speeds within a week or two.

With 100,000+ chips already ordered I see no reason as to why the project would not yield a very healthy profit within the next month.

The next update will not be scheduled but rather I will see to it that we update the forum and btct.co when mining is running and the team can show more details on the operation.

I know its easy to have 20/20 hindsight but I feel that frequent updates do more harm then good. Feel free to voice your opinion of course (as I am sure you will).

I guess asking for some measure of reason is futile but the best I can do is to inform as best as I can. Hopefully I will be able to look back at this thread in a few months and smile.

Edit: I can personally guarantee that no one on the Labcoin team has the Photoshop skills to fake the chip/board images. Source; engineers are not artists.

I disagree with the statement "that frequent updates do more harm", but I suggest instead of yelling "what the f- is wrong with them" we should take a more active role and explore ways to improve the "communication" and overall find a consensus to achive our goal of turning this into a successful story. Wink

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September 15, 2013, 04:14:05 PM
 #9658

500 pages is not far away, keep up the good work guys!

Compared to 24 hours ago, the silence over the last hours suggests that our beloved bears are done.


The silence over the past few hours suggests that the ActM cheer-leading squad has taken a break from Labcoin, probably due to the fact that they have issues with their own share price - currently down to the IPO level on BTCT.

In the last 90 pages, 90% of the posts were posted by the heavily invested ActM FUDsters.

And those guys were sooo dumb. A lot of them thought that if the price of labcoin crashed, people would take the bitcoins they got selling it and buy ActM.  What actually happened is that people got a serious wakeup call about the risks of investing in companies like this.  

ASICMiner had enormous margins to get things right. In fact, not only was no-one hashing when Friedcat got started, I don't think anyone was even hashing by the time he got his first chips (I don't remember if Avalon had shipped it's first demo boxes or not)

Now? The competition is absolutely massive.  Not just far worse then 2012, but far worse then even June or July. Not just KnC but Cointerra and HashFast, plus self-funded 'semi-private' companies focused on mining with their own chips like BTCGarden, Alydian, and Bitmine.ch.  There's really no room for error if you're going to start in November.

Obviously, if you look at what's going on with labcoin, it's not going to make people just blindly invest in ActM, it's going to make them a lot more aware of the potential risks. Seeing the titanic sink isn't going to make you want to immediately hop on the Olympus.

Of course, a lot of them are pretty damn dumb, but maybe with the price of their beloved ActM continuing to tank they actually figured it out. That would explain why they've been so quiet after their 'victory.'

Or, maybe they just think they've won and stopped paying attention.

I had already walked away from this having said my piece and been quite happy to let it run it's course, but this wanker is so full of shit I think I'll carry on with the fun & games.

It's this tosser than frequents the ActM thread and spreads his shit everywhere.  It's no surprise he's been ignored by so many in this community.

Shame really because if he didn't act like such an arse all over the place he could have probably been quite handy to have around, although some of his technical ramblings are rather laughable.

Labcoin is going down the drain and he knows it, he's just trying to pump the price so he can get out and limit damage that has befallen him.

Lot's of people in this thread seem obsessed by all things ActM, but over there Labcoin is rarely mentioned.

ActM have the evidence, have the proof, have the real world partners, have the funds, have the bat cave, have the crazy professor and will blow this red-neck outfit clean out of the water.

If ANY of you are still invested in this third rate pile of shite in a few weeks time, you may as well never log back into btct.co, 'cause your money has GONE!!!!  Grin

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September 15, 2013, 04:49:49 PM
 #9659

I've been reading soo much that I'm going blind.

The question to you guys..  Opinion:  Go I gamble my coins on this..  Yes / No?

Bitcoin Mining Hardware:   www.mininghardware.co.uk
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September 15, 2013, 04:50:47 PM
 #9660

Mining address will be posted publicly before Wednesday. This will allow transparent monitoring of the hashing rate and block generation.

http://labcoin.com - Proprietary ASIC technology
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