CoinTerra announces its first ASIC - Hash-Rate greater than 500 GH/s

[aerobatic]

The sad thing is, Cointerra's business model seems now to cater to the least informed buyers, those who don't realize they're going to be ripped off.

When a business does that, they have no moral standing, deserve no respect, and are preying upon their customers rather than serving mutual interest.

But it's likely that many of Cointerra's principals will experience personal and financial devastation if they do the right thing and wind down their company and admit they've now wasted millions on a strategy doomed to fail due to the appearance of far more competition than they expected.

And the worst part is, it's not even their fault. They seem a great company with great leaders, they're just 6 months too late.

i have to take exception to almost everything you've said, your post is insulting and degrading.  You're calling a perfectly legitimate company immoral and undeserving of any respect.  For what?  for being a month later than the previous guy?

Cointerra is little different than Hashfast and KncMiner in that they're selling a high end mining product that has performance higher than those that have come before at a lower price per GH.  The only negative is that they're about a month behind HashFast and two months behind KncMiner but to accomodate that later date theyve priced it lower (per gh) than their competition.  the market will tell them if thats the wrong price (and since they announced it at $16k and re-priced it to $14k literally days after its release, no one could accuse them of not reacting to the market!)

How you can claim they're 6 months late is insanity when theyre 1-2 months behind their closest competition.   Heck, 6 months ago, you could barely buy an asic miner from anyone, not even from BFL (they current market leader) and barely buy an AsicMiner nor Avalon product.  Your 6 months late is a ridiculous exaggeration.  Yes, things move fast in the mining world, but they are certainly not 6 months too late.

How you can say that they have no moral standing because they happen to be offering a mining product to people who are ignorant is downright insulting to all customers of mining equipment.

To state that the only people who buy their product will be people who are clueless and are the least informed is ridiculous.  At the pricing and performance levels of the product cointerra are selling, they are clearly aiming at the professional end of the mining market (do you know any home miners buying $14k mining gear?).   At $14k, this is a serious purchase for someone and cointerra are no doubt assuming that if someone can afford one or more of those product at $14k, then those customers have done their homework, have calculated their own forecasts of difficulty and decided on their own ROI and have made an informed choice.  No one buys $14k's worth of mining hardware if they dont think they will make it work.

Ultimately what you're saying is that no one at all can buy any mining product from any company for delivery in December onwards, and you're plainly wrong!  Cointerra are offering a high end mining product that is relatively speak, the lowest price (per GH) offered by anyone in that timeframe.  If you think they wont, cant, or shouldn't sell any then presumably you also think no one else can or should, since cointerras price is lower per GH than anyone else's.  So youre also assuming that kncminer, hashfast, avalon, bitfury, asicminer etc... will also not be able to sell anything beyond december.. and thats just plain wrong.  There will probably be a price that asic manufacturers can sell their mining poducts for... and they just have to keep re-pricing each month to give people the right deal to make their buy decision... And the asic companies can keep re-pricing until they get close to their cost and cant lower their prices any longer and thats where the better mining asic companies can differentiate themselves, by having better designs, in smaller die area, thats higher performance, and lower power consumption, so that their products simply cost less to make, and use less electricity & cooling.  And they will be the ones that keep selling in 2014 imho (and not the avalons and asicminers of the world, whose only benefit right now is that theyre selling from stock, but its creaky old technology)   If we all believe what youre saying, which clearly, we don't, then there will be no more asic sales in 2014 because as far as youre concerned, if the company currently selling one of the cheapest and fastest asics available is selling to 'idiots', then no one else can sell any of their more costly, less performing, more power hungry asics, either!

May i also remind you that very few asic companies actually have to sell their asics at retail.  Many of them could instead be mining themselves with any products that they cant sell for the right amount at retail.  there will be 'the right price' that makes sense for the asic companies to sell at retail for, and that will be whatever the market will bear.  and when the price goes too low and the market stops buying.. when there will be no more retail market for asics, then the only asic companies left will be the ones that arent selling to retail customers.  and we keep hearing of asic companies being setup that are independently financed and seem to have no retail plans at all (anyone heard of 21e6?)

Personally, i believe that most of the 55 & 28nm companies will do well simply because they have more competitive products.   Not just knc, hashfast, bitfury and cointerra... but whoever else comes along afterwards as well.   Because the simple fact is that these newer generation mining products use less power and hash faster (unintentional pun) ... and that's simply more sustainable for miners to use.  No one will be able to afford to keep their avalons or asicminer blades switched on in 2014 (let alone late 2013) as its just uneconomic.  So do you think people will stop mining when their old hardware starts creaking?  no!.. they will buy new hardware that is more efficient, that hashes faster, consumes less power, requires less cooling, uses less desk or rack space, etc.  there are a lot of reasons why people will continue to buy newer, better hardware to replace their old rigs.   And the retail customers and hardware suppliers between them will find the right price for this to continue.   Its happening now, on a huge scale, as gpus are being retired and people are moving into asic products in a big way (and the difficulty rises of latter 2013 are imho because of this transition and may slow down from its 100% monthly rises to perhaps 50% as we head towards the start of 2014 and most people who want to mine will have bought their asics of choice for that generation at least).

[Pinwheel]

Cointerra is little different than Hashfast and KncMiner in that they're selling a high end mining product that has performance higher than those that have come before at a lower price per GH. 

Unfortunately high performance is not going to give much of advancement against Russian Bitfury, because of cheap power cost in Russia --- USD 0.025 per kvh

[Anenome5]

Well said, all I hope for the miners community who make a titanic work will have their cryptoz from the satanist claws of capitalism
Salam...

Capitalism is not the problem, not if you mean by it free exchange. If you mean the unholy alliance of business and politicians, ie: crony capitalism, then I'd agree, but the problem there can only exist with politician-collusion. Absent that, the businesses must compete on a fair basis.

[Anenome5]

Aero: I respect what you're saying. But when realistic projections show Cointerra selling a product at a price that likely won't make a profit, or makes a marginal one at best (3 BTC on a $14k investment? doesn't even count hosting costs), what else are we to conclude then that they are hoping to dupe as many people into buying as they possibly can in order to protect their bottom line?

Obviously their price drop is because enough people weren't buying at the obviously over-priced $16k and so they dropped it down to the closest to marginal profit for the miner as possible, hoping to reel in those optimistic about coming difficulty increases.

Cointerra got blindsided by decent competitors, like BF and KNC, sure. And now their main goal seems to be stop-loss. The hardware doesn't likely cost more than $2k, and they want you to pay a 700% premium to make like $400 on a $14k investment. The numbers simply don't add up.

Sure, the difficulty is going to level off next year, and the game will be to have your miner achieve positive ROI before that happens so you can mine profitably at just above electricity costs. Maybe Cointerra's device will be marginally profitable under that scenario, and certainly far less a scam than BFL, but for me, $14k is still a sucker's bet designed to place as much profit as possible in Cointerra's pocket and practically none in their customer's.

They want to move big numbers they need to split the difference. Drop the price to about $7k. They won't be millionaires, but at least they'll be able to sleep at night, and they probably will be able to show their faces in public without fear of being attacked by some hopeful whom bought from them and realized he'd gained nothing to show for it or lost money outright, like the Avalon chip purchasers :|

[bitcoinarnold]

Cointerra is little different than Hashfast and KncMiner in that they're selling a high end mining product that has performance higher than those that have come before at a lower price per GH. 

Unfortunately high performance is not going to give much of advancement against Russian Bitfury, because of cheap power cost in Russia --- USD 0.025 per kvh

Please source your claim of .025 per kwh..

https://estore.enerdata.net/power-market/russia-electricity-report.html

According to this study: "The electricity price is controlled by the State. In 2011, the average price reached US$11c/kWh for households and US$6.7c/kWh for industry, showing a strong increase compared to 2010."

[aerobatic]

Unfortunately high performance is not going to give much of advancement against Russian Bitfury, because of cheap power cost in Russia --- USD 0.025 per kvh

any location that has cheap power, including Russia, China, Iceland and parts of the USA (Washington state), give every asic the same advantage and do not benefit any one particular asic... and in some ways it helps the ageing incumbent high power consuming chips commensurately more than the lower power ones, that dont need so much help!   ie: it lets you run an otherwise uneconomic chip a month or two longer before it also becomes uneconomic.

as for bitfury, its an excellent chip... and it is truly amazing what bitfury has done with 55nm compared to everyone else... but their present chip is not lower power nor higher performance than some of the newer 28nm entrants (bitfury is 0.85 w/gh/s, and most of the 28nm guys hashfast, bfl and cointerra are claiming circa 0.6 watts/gh/s power)..  and bitfury is currently also more expensive - but i realise bitfury is working on a 28nm version, and i cant wait to hear more about it as im sure it will also be excellent and perhaps set a new standard for performance/power/cost in the next generation.

but there will always be newer chips from everyone.  knc, hashfast and cointerra will also do 2nd chips as well.... and those will no doubt be better than their 1st chips.   we've already seen bfl announce their next chip... and we're eagerly awaiting what avalon and asicminer do next.

[aerobatic]

Aero: I respect what you're saying. But when realistic projections show Cointerra selling a product at a price that likely won't make a profit, or makes a marginal one at best (3 BTC on a $14k investment? doesn't even count hosting costs), what else are we to conclude then that they are hoping to dupe as many people into buying as they possibly can in order to protect their bottom line?

Obviously their price drop is because enough people weren't buying at the obviously over-priced $16k and so they dropped it down to the closest to marginal profit for the miner as possible, hoping to reel in those optimistic about coming difficulty increases.

Cointerra got blindsided by decent competitors, like BF and KNC, sure. And now their main goal seems to be stop-loss. The hardware doesn't likely cost more than $2k, and they want you to pay a 700% premium to make like $400 on a $14k investment. The numbers simply don't add up.

Sure, the difficulty is going to level off next year, and the game will be to have your miner achieve positive ROI before that happens so you can mine profitably at just above electricity costs. Maybe Cointerra's device will be marginally profitable under that scenario, and certainly far less a scam than BFL, but for me, $14k is still a sucker's bet designed to place as much profit as possible in Cointerra's pocket and practically none in their customer's.

They want to move big numbers they need to split the difference. Drop the price to about $7k. They won't be millionaires, but at least they'll be able to sleep at night, and they probably will be able to show their faces in public without fear of being attacked by some hopeful whom bought from them and realized he'd gained nothing to show for it or lost money outright, like the Avalon chip purchasers :|

Cointerra couldn't have got blindsided by KnC (who announced much earlier this year, and launched in June)... ie: their products and specs have been announced for ages.  Maybe they got blindsided by BFL... but since that company has pretty much burned its customers (and still hasnt shipped most of its previous asic orders - including my one for several units) it has lost any reputation it once had so i doubt that any other asic company is too worried about what bfl does next.  Any fresh new company that comes out with zero reputation is probably going to be perceived better than bfl with its negative reputation.

If anything its hashfast that might have been blindsided by cointerra because the two companies are much closer in their product offerings than the others.  ie: hf's 400 gh/s versus ct's 500 gh/s asics, that are both in the 0.6 w/gh/s power consumption range.  it will be interesting to see the die sizes when both are announced so we can figure out which is the more efficient chip - ie: cheaper to make and thus which company can afford to sell at what price.   KnC's main advantage (which is huge, dont get me wrong) is that its the first one in a new generation (28nm) that is will be out first, and thus has collected the most pre-orders and, presumably, after they ship, will also collect a substantial 'from stock' orders.  knc definitely has a huge advantage.  but their chip specs arent as competitive as hashfast and cointerra's so when it comes to november/december pricing, knc cannot go as low as hashfast or cointerra can go, as knc requires 4 chips (plus fans, coolers and larger power supply) to do what hashfast and cointerra need only one chip (cooler and power supply) to do, thus you can see hf and ct much more able to be price competitive when they need to be.   and im assuming the chip cost for knc, hf and ct to be nearly identical cost.. in that they are all presumably using big dies, big packages, and big fns/heatsinks (or water cooling), thus the cost 'per chip' is going to be quite similar between them.

[monkee]

The hardware doesn't likely cost more than $2k, and they want you to pay a 700% premium to make like $400 on a $14k investment. The numbers simply don't add up.

Drop the price to about $7k.

+1

and weren't they supposed to release their "something for everyone" product line "by the end of the month"??

[aerobatic]

The hardware doesn't likely cost more than $2k, and they want you to pay a 700% premium to make like $400 on a $14k investment. The numbers simply don't add up.

Drop the price to about $7k.

+1

and weren't they supposed to release their "something for everyone" product line "by the end of the month"??

Agreed, they did say they would offer 1-chip versions as well so hopefully thats still coming.  if they can make a 4-chip box they sure can make a 1-chip box... !

Much as i'd love to buy Cointerra's (or anyones) 2 TH box for $7k myself (thats $3500 per TH), its unrealistic at this point to expect them to sell us their gear for significantly less than their competitors are!

Lets just compare the price of the advanced mining hardware for delivery in the nov/dec timeframe :-

KnC's new pricing (i got my email from them a few hours ago, ie: today) is $4999 for a Jupiter 400 GH box (thats $12,497 per TH)
Hashfast's price for the baby Jet is $5800 for a 400 GH box (which is $14,500 per TH).  presumably they will re-price to compete with KnC in due course.
BitFury's October pricing is still $8000 for a 400 GH box ($20,000 per TH).
Cointerra's price is $13999 for a 2 TH box in Dec (ie: $7000 per TH)  (corrected price, thanks bcp!)

[bcp19]

The hardware doesn't likely cost more than $2k, and they want you to pay a 700% premium to make like $400 on a $14k investment. The numbers simply don't add up.

Drop the price to about $7k.

+1

and weren't they supposed to release their "something for everyone" product line "by the end of the month"??

Agreed, they did say they would offer 1-chip versions as well so hopefully thats still coming.  if they can make a 4-chip box they sure can make a 1-chip box... !

Much as i'd love to buy Cointerra's (or anyones) 2 TH box for $7k myself (thats $3500 per TH), its unrealistic at this point to expect them to sell us their gear for significantly less than their competitors are!

Lets just compare the price of the advanced mining hardware for delivery in the nov/dec timeframe :-

KnC's new pricing (i got my email from them a few hours ago, ie: today) is $4999 for a Jupiter 400 GH box (thats $12,497 per TH)
Hashfast's price for the baby Jet is $5800 for a 400 GH box (which is $14,500 per TH).  presumably they will re-price to compete with KnC in due course.
BitFury's October pricing is still $8000 for a 400 GH box ($20,000 per TH).
Cointerra's price is $13999 for a 2 TH box in Dec (ie: $7500 per TH)

Your cointerra price should be $7,000 not $7,500.

[Sitarow]

The hardware doesn't likely cost more than $2k, and they want you to pay a 700% premium to make like $400 on a $14k investment. The numbers simply don't add up.

Drop the price to about $7k.

+1

and weren't they supposed to release their "something for everyone" product line "by the end of the month"??

Agreed, they did say they would offer 1-chip versions as well so hopefully thats still coming.  if they can make a 4-chip box they sure can make a 1-chip box... !

Much as i'd love to buy Cointerra's (or anyones) 2 TH box for $7k myself (thats $3500 per TH), its unrealistic at this point to expect them to sell us their gear for significantly less than their competitors are!

Lets just compare the price of the advanced mining hardware for delivery in the nov/dec timeframe :-

KnC's new pricing (i got my email from them a few hours ago, ie: today) is $4999 for a Jupiter 400 GH box (thats $12,497 per TH)
Hashfast's price for the baby Jet is $5800 for a 400 GH box (which is $14,500 per TH).  presumably they will re-price to compete with KnC in due course.
BitFury's October pricing is still $8000 for a 400 GH box ($20,000 per TH).
Cointerra's price is $13999 for a 2 TH box in Dec (ie: $7000 per TH)  (corrected price, thanks bcp!)

Used hardware has to be factored into this equation.

Miners can for one reason or another start pulling out and selling their hardware at rock bottom prices as they can write off the loss.

It is prudent to expect these manufacturers will adjust to compete with that market segment.

[aerobatic]

Used hardware has to be factored into this equation.

Miners can for one reason or another start pulling out and selling their hardware at rock bottom prices as they can write off the loss.

It is prudent to expect these manufacturers will adjust to compete with that market segment.

If you're assuming used GPU's.. well, those still have a useful purpose thats not bitcoin related so yea, gpus can still be re-sold at a decent price, but their value isnt determined by their hash rate but purely market driven based on their graphics and games performance.

But if youre thinking that used asicminer blades and avalons that have to be sold at rock bottom prices (because theyre long in the tooth) will affect the price that new hardware can be sold, i dont think theres a direct correlation and they're unlikely to make a big impact regardless of the price theyre sold even if they're 'dumped' at below the market $/gh price.   I think its more likely that the new hardware is valued related to the hashrate it provides, the power consumption it uses, and the delivery date.  plus a few other factors (trust worthiness of the company, track record of the principals, payment terms etc)

no matter what price the old hardware is dumped onto the market at, people wont just look at the $/gh but the other factors come into play as the older units are bigger, noisier and certainly more power hungry so their running costs are higher and that will be factored in.  quite the converse in fact, the price that the newer gear is selling for will make the older gear obsolete even quicker.

[Anenome5]

Much as i'd love to buy Cointerra's (or anyones) 2 TH box for $14k myself (thats $7000 per TH), its unrealistic at this point to expect them to sell us their gear for significantly less than their competitors are!

Lets just compare the price of the advanced mining hardware for delivery in the nov/dec timeframe :-

KnC's new pricing (i got my email from them a few hours ago, ie: today) is $4999 for a Jupiter 400 GH box (thats $12,497 per TH)

Yeah but you'll be hashing in November with that. Cointerra you'll be hashing in January, maybe late January. And if you only buy their chip possibly much later. Things really do devalue that fast in this space.

[shadizzle]

Reserved

Watching this thread closely.  I absolutely love the debates and peoples thoughts here- really for a noob like me, this is EXTREMELY educational.   Thank you everyone!~!!!!!!!!!@!!!!!!!!!

Id love to purchase any of these units personally, just so high of cost, the only way I see being feasible is purchasing stock/shares from one of these big names out there.

Why is a blade considered such a poor investment to someone brand new to this?  Is it based purely because of difficulty mainly? or more aimed at the w/gh/s ratio? -  NOT trying to thread hyjack, just trying to stay up to speed

[DyslexicZombei]

Hey shadizzle,

Try the Mining calculator at The Genesis Block:

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

If you put in the specs for an AM blade, the returns fall off a cliff pretty rapidly. Unfortunately, with rising difficulty, lots of hardware will never make ROI.

Here's an interesting chart put together by a forum member:

http://decentralizedhashing.com/bitcoin-mining-equipment-table/

[shadizzle]

Hey shadizzle,

Try the Mining calculator at The Genesis Block:

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/

If you put in the specs for an AM blade, the returns fall off a cliff pretty rapidly. Unfortunately, with rising difficulty, lots of hardware will never make ROI.

Here's an interesting chart put together by a forum member:

http://decentralizedhashing.com/bitcoin-mining-equipment-table/

Thank you again Mr. Zombie! I really appreciate everyones help this is much help!!

[eve]

The hardware doesn't likely cost more than $2k, and they want you to pay a 700% premium to make like $400 on a $14k investment. The numbers simply don't add up.

Drop the price to about $7k.

+1

and weren't they supposed to release their "something for everyone" product line "by the end of the month"??

Agreed, they did say they would offer 1-chip versions as well so hopefully thats still coming.  if they can make a 4-chip box they sure can make a 1-chip box... !

Much as i'd love to buy Cointerra's (or anyones) 2 TH box for $7k myself (thats $3500 per TH), its unrealistic at this point to expect them to sell us their gear for significantly less than their competitors are!

Lets just compare the price of the advanced mining hardware for delivery in the nov/dec timeframe :-

KnC's new pricing (i got my email from them a few hours ago, ie: today) is $4999 for a Jupiter 400 GH box (thats $12,497 per TH)
Hashfast's price for the baby Jet is $5800 for a 400 GH box (which is $14,500 per TH).  presumably they will re-price to compete with KnC in due course.
BitFury's October pricing is still $8000 for a 400 GH box ($20,000 per TH).
Cointerra's price is $13999 for a 2 TH box in Dec (ie: $7000 per TH)  (corrected price, thanks bcp!)

Extremely expensive, a $3 to $5 per gh/s is way more reasonable.

[creativex]

...and REALLY hard to find...

Got a link eve?

[ASIC-K]

eve is a retard and should die.

just ignore him. see his glowing yellow ignore button?

[frankenmint]

eve is a retard and should die.

just ignore him. see his glowing yellow ignore button?

Does the ignore button become highlighted as more people ignore 'said' person?  With that being said, isn't even not even real??? Its always a repeated message that never has anything positive to say...sum bullshit like "show me the chips!!!!"