[BitFunder] IceDrill.ASIC IPO (235 Thash Mining Operation powered by HashFast)

[LordMeowMeow]

Question for DeadTerra: What kind of pricing agreement do you have with HashFast? I'm wondering how you will be able to compete with other miners who are getting their chips directly from the factories at "cost". Is this one of the main challenges you will have or is it not really a concern? And why?

Thanks

[usagi]

gratz

[crumbs]

Mark Zuckerberg built the site from ground and they were already big by the time they released their ipo. You cannot compare that to a company with 0 value which value only comes from the money people put in.

Its like you go to a bank, say I want to start a business and rent a house but therefore I need to buy a house, and for security I give you 50% of the house while you (the bank) finance 100%.

+1, but it goes a bit further:  There is no house.  
There is just a contractor planning to build a house (DeadTerra).  To build that house, DeadTerra is relying on materials to be provided by HashFast, who, in turn, hasn't made those materials yet.
It's turtles all the way down.  

[canth]

you seriously have a swastika as avatar?

The swastika predates the nazi's by a couple thousand years.

And the nazi swastika is right-facing while the hindu version is left-facing. It's subtle, but there is a difference.

[redbeans2012]

you seriously have a swastika as avatar?

The swastika predates the nazi's by a couple thousand years.

And the nazi swastika is right-facing while the hindu version is left-facing. It's subtle, but there is a difference.

I wonder what political symbols and mascots will be taboo in 70 years.

"you dont seriously have a donkey as your avatar do you?"

[Dexter770221]

How often equipment will be expanded? Every two weeks as difficulty raise?
Let's assume that 25% will allow to increase hardware by 10%. After 1 year of expansion in two weeks periods mine will be almost 12 times larger and 12 times more power hungry (1,1^26). And after 2 years 142 times larger !!!. Are this mysterious place is ready for this?

[maqifrnswa]

Mark Zuckerberg built the site from ground and they were already big by the time they released their ipo. You cannot compare that to a company with 0 value which value only comes from the money people put in.

Its like you go to a bank, say I want to start a business and rent a house but therefore I need to buy a house, and for security I give you 50% of the house while you (the bank) finance 100%.

+1, but it goes a bit further:  There is no house.  
There is just a contractor planning to build a house (DeadTerra).  To build that house, DeadTerra is relying on materials to be provided by HashFast, who, in turn, hasn't made those materials yet.
It's turtles all the way down.  

My mind has been tossing around what these PMBs that buy after an IPO and reinvest dividends are really doing... they aren't bonds, nor stock, it's more like a managed group buy.

You participate in the group buy/preorder of new hardware. You pay a management fee for hosting as well as for negotiating future deals. You are forced to reinvest 25% of your earnings, which you wouldn't have to do in a group buy but had the option to buy more shares or buy another group buy.

I, personally, like the "clean" group buys that turn in to shares (soniq, ADDICTION) - but there may be some value in hiring LabRat or DeaDTerra to continuously negotiate group buys for you if they can leverage a better deal than you can get trying to get in on a day one group buy.

These are all more like a hedge fund than a bond or stock...

[crumbs]

Mark Zuckerberg built the site from ground and they were already big by the time they released their ipo. You cannot compare that to a company with 0 value which value only comes from the money people put in.

Its like you go to a bank, say I want to start a business and rent a house but therefore I need to buy a house, and for security I give you 50% of the house while you (the bank) finance 100%.

+1, but it goes a bit further:  There is no house.  
There is just a contractor planning to build a house (DeadTerra).  To build that house, DeadTerra is relying on materials to be provided by HashFast, who, in turn, hasn't made those materials yet.
It's turtles all the way down.  

My mind has been tossing around what these PMBs that buy after an IPO and reinvest dividends are really doing... they aren't bonds, nor stock, it's more like a managed group buy.

You participate in the group buy/preorder of new hardware. You pay a management fee for hosting as well as for negotiating future deals. You are forced to reinvest 25% of your earnings, which you wouldn't have to do in a group buy but had the option to buy more shares or buy another group buy.

I, personally, like the "clean" group buys that turn in to shares (soniq, ADDICTION) - but there may be some value in hiring LabRat or DeaDTerra to continuously negotiate group buys for you if they can leverage a better deal than you can get trying to get in on a day one group buy.

These are all more like a hedge fund than a bond or stock...

The problem's there's no hedging here, since there's no "reduced future risk."  
It's sort-of an anti-hedge -- HashFast fails?  The whole shebang fails, you lose.  
HashFast delivers but DeadTerra fails?  You lose too.  
It's more of a "future risk multiplier," probably fitting the catchall "derivative instrument," loosely indexed to how much people feel like paying for the things.  It's certainly an odd package, we're asked to fund *several* dubiously-symbiotic startups in a single offering.

[Dexter770221]

Strange numbers bitfunder shows on chart. 250,120 shares bought and total price is two times lower 175.084BTC and it should be 350.168BTC Bug somwhere?

[TheFuneral]

Mark Zuckerberg built the site from ground and they were already big by the time they released their ipo. You cannot compare that to a company with 0 value which value only comes from the money people put in.

This. IceDrill is pretty much "let others buy the hardware, we sit back and reap the profits". It would be better if the shares had a clause where the floated shares break even first and the founders get no profit until BitFunder investors break even.

This is how I feel about it and why I'm not investing.

[FCTaiChi]

The problem's there's no hedging here, since there's no "reduced future risk."  
It's sort-of an anti-hedge -- HashFast fails?  The whole shebang fails, you lose.  
HashFast delivers but DeadTerra fails?  You lose too.  
It's more of a "future risk multiplier," probably fitting the catchall "derivative instrument," loosely indexed to how much people feel like paying for the things.  It's certainly an odd package, we're asked to fund *several* dubiously-symbiotic startups in a single offering.

I know right?  It's totally like building houses, and who in their right mind would put money into a house that doesn't exist yet?  Obviously it doesn't matter that the contractor they are using has built hundreds of houses before.

[crumbs]

The problem's there's no hedging here, since there's no "reduced future risk."  
It's sort-of an anti-hedge -- HashFast fails?  The whole shebang fails, you lose.  
HashFast delivers but DeadTerra fails?  You lose too.  
It's more of a "future risk multiplier," probably fitting the catchall "derivative instrument," loosely indexed to how much people feel like paying for the things.  It's certainly an odd package, we're asked to fund *several* dubiously-symbiotic startups in a single offering.

I know right?  It's totally like building houses, and who in their right mind would put money into a house that doesn't exist yet?  Obviously it doesn't matter that the contractor they are using has built hundreds of houses before.

Except he didn't.
Except even the bricks (HashFast chippery) do not exist.
Except no bricks of this kind (28nm hashing ASICs) exist *anywhere.*
Except no bank would fund a building project, along with a brick company with no bricks to its name.
Except no bank would fund a house of dubious legal status, without reams of paperwork that would actually stand up to legal scrutiny.
Except the bank is asked to assume *all* the risk with *no* guaranteed rewards.
Except the value of this house is likely to *halve* every month. 
Where do you bank, brah?

[evoorhees]

The problem's there's no hedging here, since there's no "reduced future risk."  
It's sort-of an anti-hedge -- HashFast fails?  The whole shebang fails, you lose.  
HashFast delivers but DeadTerra fails?  You lose too.  
It's more of a "future risk multiplier," probably fitting the catchall "derivative instrument," loosely indexed to how much people feel like paying for the things.  It's certainly an odd package, we're asked to fund *several* dubiously-symbiotic startups in a single offering.

I know right?  It's totally like building houses, and who in their right mind would put money into a house that doesn't exist yet? 

Ummmm every real estate developer in history?

[lano1106]

I have a question for one of the management member, David Shin

Is your employer, Barclay's Capital has approved your participation into this startup?

Correct me if I'm wrong but major banks forces their employees to declare their OBIs (Outside Business Interest) and the employer have the right to refuse your involvement if it goes against the bank best interests.

What happens if Barclay's ask you to stop your participation into IceDrill?
Is Barclay's has invested into IceDrill?
Did they have accepted your participation in IceDrill?

If one major bank accepts someone from its management to be involved in a Bitcoin venture, this indirectly might send a important signal for the legitimacy of bitcoin....

[SoylentCreek]

The problem's there's no hedging here, since there's no "reduced future risk." 
It's sort-of an anti-hedge -- HashFast fails?  The whole shebang fails, you lose. 
HashFast delivers but DeadTerra fails?  You lose too. 
It's more of a "future risk multiplier," probably fitting the catchall "derivative instrument," loosely indexed to how much people feel like paying for the things.  It's certainly an odd package, we're asked to fund *several* dubiously-symbiotic startups in a single offering.

I know right?  It's totally like building houses, and who in their right mind would put money into a house that doesn't exist yet? 

Ummmm every real estate developer in history?

thatwasthejoke.jpeg

[Ytterbium]

A better deal would be to pay out the full 100% interest every period, and let users decide how much they want to re-invest by floating new shares.

Of course, this would mean the share price would go down as the difficulty goes up.

[FCTaiChi]

Except he didn't.

Uniquify?

Except even the bricks (HashFast chippery) do not exist.

I would say it's more like an architect to design the structure, which is supposedly happening, and the people responsible haven't failed yet.

Except no bricks of this kind (28nm hashing ASICs) exist *anywhere.*

I don't mind if you call people gamblers rather than investors or consumers.  Everyone has some incentive for what they do.  Including you.  Mind letting us know what yours is?  You put an awful lot of energy into trolling new mining threads.  What is the payoff of that?

Except no bank would fund a building project, along with a brick company with no bricks to its name.

They would if they were a proven company with a history of bringing products, but alas this is bitcoin and everything done in this space is new.

Except no bank would fund a house of dubious legal status, without reams of paperwork that would actually stand up to legal scrutiny.

Yes, if your point is that there are a lot of scams, that is true.  What about all the money people make?  That's true too, people have to be diligent.

Except the bank is asked to assume *all* the risk with *no* guaranteed rewards.

Sounds like any new venture to me.

Except the value of this house is likely to *halve* every month. 
Where do you bank, brah?

Except you can rent the house from the first day.  If you picked the right one it will double or triple your money before utilities break the ratio.  Also you don't have to kick anyone out when you're tired of it.  Yes there is no guarantee.  Run scared!  No really, if you're not willing to research and lose despite, don't mine.  Wait 5 years, and hope that a huge corporation hasn't taken over the network.

[Ytterbium]

I don't mind if you call people gamblers rather than investors or consumers.  Everyone has some incentive for what they do.  Including you.  Mind letting us know what yours is?  You put an awful lot of energy into trolling new mining threads.  What is the payoff of that?

The pay off is the same as every other troll - irritating people. Just put him on ignore.

[crumbs]

Except he didn't.

Uniquify?

Uniquify != HashFast.

Except even the bricks (HashFast chippery) do not exist.

I would say it's more like an architect to design the structure, which is supposedly happening, and the people responsible haven't failed yet.

I don't care if the brick-firing plant is working hard on brick blueprints.
Does the plant have enough bricks (chips) for the builder (IceDrill) to build the house?  
No?  
Does it have any bricks?
No?  
Has it ever produced bricks before?  
No?  
Then i'm afraid we're still shitoutof bricks.

Except no bricks of this kind (28nm hashing ASICs) exist *anywhere.*

I don't mind if you call people gamblers rather than investors or consumers.  Everyone has some incentive for what they do.  Including you.  Mind letting us know what yours is?  You put an awful lot of energy into trolling new mining threads.  What is the payoff of that?

Not sure how my motivations are relevant here.  It's clear i'm not a fan, and i try to present a convincing case.  Or not.

Except no bank would fund a building project, along with a brick company with no bricks to its name.

They would if they were a proven company with a history of bringing products, but alas this is bitcoin and everything done in this space is new.

Well, no.  Avalon & BFL have already delivered product, so this is no terra incognita*.  KNC & Bitfury have irons in the fire, if we take them at their word.  There are plenty of horses to back -- more IPOs than you can shake a stick at.  Sure, 28nm is new to the scene -- great reason not to trust a bunch of unknowns.  New tech, combined with no experience, rushed R&D & no-prototype-production = recipe for big fail.

Except no bank would fund a house of dubious legal status, without reams of paperwork that would actually stand up to legal scrutiny.

Yes, if your point is that there are a lot of scams, that is true.  What about all the money people make?  That's true too, people have to be diligent.

This particular offering of PMB & nonexistent chip, as i understand it, shows a pile of potential problems -- even before one applies due diligence.
But i won't stop anyone from investing -- neither can nor want to.

Except the bank is asked to assume *all* the risk with *no* guaranteed rewards.

Sounds like any new venture to me.

This one's different -- the people behind it are risking nothing.  If just the IPO makes good, that's a nice sum of bitcoins to control -- win, lose or draw.
If betting on a dream seems romantic to you, do it,but calling this "investing" is simply dishonest.  I've made sounder investments trying to win stuffies from carnies.

Except the value of this house is likely to *halve* every month.  
Where do you bank, brah?

Except you can rent the house from the first day.  If you picked the right one it will double or triple your money before utilities break the ratio.  Also you don't have to kick anyone out when you're tired of it.  Yes there is no guarantee.  Run scared!  No really, if you're not willing to research and lose despite, don't mine.  Wait 5 years, and hope that a huge corporation hasn't taken over the network.

There is no question of "from the first day" here.  If everything was set up & ready to go online, we wouldn't be wasting our time talking, right?
There is no mining gear.
There are no boards.  
There are no chips.  
There is no maskset.  
There's just a bunch of people asking for your coin.  
The offering is not even legal, the contract is not a contract is unenforceable, the shares or bonds or whatever these "virtual" things traded on a virtual exchange are  illegal according to US law, so unless you hail from Belize, forget about seeing your coin if anything goes wrong. Something like that.

[will]

Hmm that's weird I posted a question about HashFast's deal with IceDrill and it was deleted? I asked how they plan to compete with the other mining companies who are getting chips directly from the fabs and if they think their pricing disadvantage will be a factor or not.

Your post is here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269216.msg2890729#msg2890729

Deleting posts, even if we could, would be reprehensible and against our policy of transparency and honesty.

We are aware that none of the second batch of outstanding questions have been answered. The answers to these will be forthcoming in the next Q&A instalment when they are finalised. We implore you to please keep your questions clear, concise and to the point as it will ensure a quicker turnaround. Direct links to these Q&As will be included in the initial post to ease navigation for newcomers and act as an FAQ reference.

EDIT: @LordMeowMeow, your post is an example of this conciseness we speak of and we appreciate it, thank you

EDIT2: Apologies if this seems like an excuse, but one of the reasons for the delay is due to our coordination with Hashfast marketing regarding their Baby Jet pre-order release today:
https://www.hashfast.com/HFshop/babyjet/