Do we want to continue to allow various vendor hate in here?

[Cyberdyne]

Maybe in the custom hardware section the vendor should be required to demonstrate that they have registered their products with the FCC.  That would keep all of them off the boards.  I think that would leave us with, what, zero legitimate vendors?

What's the FCC? Maybe it will leave us with hundreds of legitimate foreign vendors.

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[Viceroy]

The Federal Communications Commission.  A body of the US Government that, among other things, requires all electronic devices to not emit radio waves not allowed by that category of device.  Any mining device sold to an American is required to be certified, no matter where it is manufactured.

 

[iikun]

I agree with two of the proposals so far:

1. Either subforums for each vendor and/or for delivered vs vaporware.
I think there will be too many vendors to create a subforum for each one but what doing so would help eliminate is the overposting of unnecessary threads by some of the newcomer vendors. We should remember that Burnin & Bkkcoins have both created hardware (albeit with someone else's chips) via only one thread. 4/5 threads for vaporware is totally unnecessary in my eyes. The overposting of threads leads to trolling as people get sick of what they aren't interested in coming up on the first page via 3 or 4 separate threads.

If this idea is adopted I would suggest a separate sub under custom hardware for open-source/DIY projects such as Burnin/bkkcoins so that their projects are not lumped in with vaporware vendors whilst they are in development. I think such projects deserve a little more understanding & patience than the "preorder now!!" crowd.

2. Action on the issue of BFL (and perhaps now Avalon) non-delivery. I'm not going to comment here as that is a discussion for another sub-forum but if people could see real action such as a warning tag on either their accounts or their advertising that would be a good start & people would feel less of a need to vent via threads. Inaction on this leads to overt flaming/trolling in all BFL threads.

[Frizz23]

Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

Butterflies are animals - maybe that explains it? 

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You could start by honoring the voice of this community: 1011 people voted so far - and 786 (77.7%) said Give BFL a scammer tag.

What's more important for you? Money (from Ads) - or your integrity?

[Bicknellski]

Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

Butterflies are animals - maybe that explains it? 

Does anyone have any great ideas?

You could start by honoring the voice of this community: 1011 people voted so far - and 786 (77.7%) said Give BFL a scammer tag.

What's more important for you? Money (from Ads) - or your integrity?

Butterflies are not Animalia they are Insecta.


Ideas:

1. Like the two subforums idea for vendors. Those that are 'legit' and those that are 'unproven' or 'untrusted'.

2. Make all vendors post self moderate topics and have a complaints subforum for vendors to respond or ignore and all outright scam accusations still go to scam.

3. Have all vendors use a registered and designated account that can post notices only about their products.

[eraziel]

I think a good addition would be to have a MANDATORY tag on threads stating the status of the product discussed.

E.g. vendors MUST state in their thread name if their product is either in design phase, poc phase, verified, in stock etc.

When a vendor wants to move from one phase to another they would have to provide sufficient proof that their product is in fact in the state that they are claiming it to be.
Then, when a mod is able to confirm said proof he would give a go-ahead to the vendor to change the status tag.

This would make it much easier to distinguish vendor's claims from facts.

It does not solve all the issues, but I think it improves visibility greatly.
And given that there are only so many vendors and products being developed it shouldn't be a huge burden on the moderators to keep track of products in development.

[Noogsy]

I might be wrong, but I have a strong feeling that most of the ultra-haters are sockpuppets of those companies.
When censoring them you have to censor all the good but grumpy folks too, and I guess thats what thei arer speculating on.
What is the ignore button for then?
My idea would be an ignore-counter below the avatar.
So everyone could see by how many ppl he/her/it is ignored. Like a reverse trust rating.

[nexus99]

How about a troll vote button? Someone gets 50 troll votes (or whatever the number is) and they are banned for 3 days (or whatever the right amount of time is).
You cant post about BFL on this site without the same group of people (who are probably just dummy accounts for other companies) destroying the thread. It is ridiculous.

[salihno71]

Maybe solution would be to open a distinct subcategory where such views would be tolerated while elsewhere would be strictly forbidden. So if one would not like to have any of that attitude, he would simply have to avoid that subcategory. First (pinned) post should be vendor trust level which would be moderated on regular basis based on current experience and would have listed ASIC vendors.

[Kj1]

Make some new subcategories:
- ASIC end-product vendor specific (one subforum for each big vendor + 1 forums for new announcements).  Eg i dont care about BFL, but would like to see new players on the market.  But, if i were to have a BFL order, i'd be very intrested in the "sue them" topic, and i wouldn't miss this with vendor-specific subforums...)
- ASIC chips production (tech docs & specs about asic chips)
- DIY
- hardware/software developmnents (also DIY) about asic generations, software, etc.
- group buys

Like the OP, i'm getting lost in these spagetti complaints threads and i'm losing the big picture.  The above isnt ideal but it might be a starting point.  The idea is that you can get the information you want quickly, even if there is a bulkload of complaints...  Thats part the information I guess.

Eg; try to find the asnwer in the forum to this: why is the diff skyrocketing?  It means asics are getting out; obviously, but from where and in what amount? 

[frankenmint]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

No offense BAN PEOPLE- Inaba is hella toxic.  I think any/all vendor related contacts should be banned...they have email addresses and vendor ecommerce sites - takes your fussing and questions to them there...not here. 

bitsyncom - GET OUT. 

You should maybe clone the trust system to add a reputation meter in too. Make it such that only moderators could actually ban people who suddenly get a negative 10 rating.  maybe if someone suddenly gets a negative rating they have their posts removed and banned...i know you talk about not wanting to take away freedom to compalin and feel how one chooses - but there sure is a lot of stupid crap that gets perpetuated by vendors which gets people who spent maybe tens of thousands of dollars on these vendors really pissed off and riled up.  That's all.


At most a single [ann] section where members can post all the new crypto news and its a single area in the forum where the BS and speculation on delivery dates and wether or not they are scams could be posted their.  I think the reputation would allow us to effectively get rid of the immatures, the bots, and of course, the shills.  Perhaps instead of instant-BAN you could relegate people back into the newbies section for X number of hours/days/weeks/indefinitely.

[Bicknellski]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

No offense BAN PEOPLE- Inaba is hella toxic.  I think any/all vendor related contacts should be banned...they have email addresses and vendor ecommerce sites - takes your fussing and questions to them there...not here. 

bitsyncom - GET OUT. 

You should maybe clone the trust system to add a reputation meter in too. Make it such that only moderators could actually ban people who suddenly get a negative 10 rating.  maybe if someone suddenly gets a negative rating they have their posts removed and banned...i know you talk about not wanting to take away freedom to compalin and feel how one chooses - but there sure is a lot of stupid crap that gets perpetuated by vendors which gets people who spent maybe tens of thousands of dollars on these vendors really pissed off and riled up.  That's all.


At most a single [ann] section where members can post all the new crypto news and its a single area in the forum where the BS and speculation on delivery dates and wether or not they are scams could be posted their.  I think the reputation would allow us to effectively get rid of the immatures, the bots, and of course, the shills.  Perhaps instead of instant-BAN you could relegate people back into the newbies section for X number of hours/days/weeks/indefinitely.

Liking these ideas...

Definite worth a look.

[PuertoLibre]

Only product-specific threads allowed, once you, or your apointee, receive(s) a working device. It is up to vendors to supply these, including an optional prepaid return shipping if they desire them returned.

No product, no thread.

This is guaranteed to eliminate the majority of madness on all sides. You would be left with legitimate vendors, legitimate customers, and an occasional shill or a troll, much like in other subfora.

I like the "no product, no thread" idea.
Shunt everything else to mining speculation or scam accusation.

I agree.

No Product, no thread.

Except it should be changed to:

No Performance, No thread(s). <===

The reason I say this is because BFL can claim they have a product. So they would then argue they can have their thread with the above idea.

So I recommend there be "Performance" = "A thread".

So this way, people who are ordering but aren't getting a performance out of their product can have their threads pulled until they do perform. This should also change Theymos positions on stuff. It must apply to advertising. If you cannot perform then you cannot bid for ads.

What stops any scammer from spending 100btc over 10 weeks and getting their vapor product advertised while collecting thousands of dollars in revenue for a product which has no performance? (and perhaps no existence)

Edit: If you think this hasn't happened, recall that BFL took orders in June 2012 and they maintained a thread and many customers. They only barely began delivery in April 2013 (actually more like May 2013. Almost a year later)

[PuertoLibre]

The forum is overrun with the hate of the day with various "hardware"(/vaporware) vendors, it has become hard to discuss anything else. Many of the participants are behaving like animals.

I'm sensitive to the risk of suppressing complaints. There have been many scam hardware "vendors" of various degrees. People should be able to communicate about the risks, seek recourse, etc.   At the same time, these complaints have reached an intensity where they are self defeating.  If you tell me vendor X is a scam I don't know if its because they are or because you're crazy, because you're a shill for another vendor, because you're a shill for them trying to make the complainers look crazy, if you're a miner trying to scare people out of mining, etc.  As a warning this information is no longer very helpful.

I have multiple people I know (and have met in person and know not to be socks) begging me to do something about the sad state of this subforum.  But I'm at a loss... how do we defeat troll culture when it's taking the form of "concern troll" about concerns we should be careful to preserve? And how can we do it without making me and miningbuddy censors who have to vet every single post?

Does anyone have any great ideas?

No offense BAN PEOPLE- Inaba is hella toxic.  I think any/all vendor related contacts should be banned...they have email addresses and vendor ecommerce sites - takes your fussing and questions to them there...not here. 

bitsyncom - GET OUT. 

You should maybe clone the trust system to add a reputation meter in too. Make it such that only moderators could actually ban people who suddenly get a negative 10 rating.  maybe if someone suddenly gets a negative rating they have their posts removed and banned...i know you talk about not wanting to take away freedom to compalin and feel how one chooses - but there sure is a lot of stupid crap that gets perpetuated by vendors which gets people who spent maybe tens of thousands of dollars on these vendors really pissed off and riled up.  That's all.


At most a single [ann] section where members can post all the new crypto news and its a single area in the forum where the BS and speculation on delivery dates and wether or not they are scams could be posted their.  I think the reputation would allow us to effectively get rid of the immatures, the bots, and of course, the shills.  Perhaps instead of instant-BAN you could relegate people back into the newbies section for X number of hours/days/weeks/indefinitely.

A nice idea, but the problem is then it effectively makes a gag on something that can be purely subjective.

A person might hate my guts for instance and gather 10 people or 10 socks and ban me. Even though I never actually said anything untruthful.

[PuertoLibre]

Maybe solution would be to open a distinct subcategory where such views would be tolerated while elsewhere would be strictly forbidden. So if one would not like to have any of that attitude, he would simply have to avoid that subcategory. First (pinned) post should be vendor trust level which would be moderated on regular basis based on current experience and would have listed ASIC vendors.

The problem is that doesn't solve the core problem.

Complaints have to be hand in hand with sales. Not hidden in a backroom or subforum. If you have an angry customer, then everyone should know about it and the vendor (within reason) should feel compelled to do something positive about it...because it affects their bottom line. Take BFL for a perfect example, you have a problem?...Then FUCK YOU!

That pretty much means they can go to a mod and have their (customers) posts thrown into some back room which no one would want to go visit in the first place. Whether people like it or not, they should have the crap right under their noses so they know A) it exists, and B) it's stinking up the room and no one is doing anything "positive" about it.

=================

There are fake trolls/shills all over the place. There are known vendors with poor performance who don't produce...and frankly, they face no penalty for not producing on their orders. Some <cough> tell their very customers to go "fuck off" and call them liars even when they have established a legitimate order and face insurmountable challenges in getting a remedy.

CoinTerra or TerraHash can delay from their current release schedules to February or March and nothing bad will happen to them. They won't lose any advertising privledges, they won't face any moderator issues, they won't even be told anything which affects their business.

By throwing out the members who do point out the unremarkable truth, they have free reign. They can damn well do as they please with no one to say otherwise.

[kano]

Actually the real problem is that people turn many threads into a pointless wastes of time ... and then keep posting the same thing over and over for months ... like some mind numbingly stupid belief that no one knows or understands that a certain company is completely unable to deliver hardware on time Only they can see this and thus they must post this same information a hundred times in each thread ... and make themselves look like some sort of psychotic stalker ... and then start posting falsehoods since they themselves have realised there's no point posting the same thing over and over again ... so why not make something up ...

Bottom line, I see no real problem with posting negative stuff about companies, however, there are a small number of accounts on bitcointalk that if they were deleted, that would get rid of most of the "OMG I gotta post it again today coz no body knows what I know and I must educate all these fools who read this forum ... who didn't read it yesterday" crap these threads are full of.

[PuertoLibre]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

[kano]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

Sigh - yet again a post of lies - to pretend they are some oracle who knows all but yet cannot provide proof of the lies they post ...

[PuertoLibre]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

Sigh - yet again a post of lies - to pretend they are some oracle who knows all but yet cannot provide proof of the lies they post ...

Yes, short memories we all pretend to have in sight of the obvious...let just say it is "off topic".

[kano]

For example Kano,

You got free hardware <cough> as part of your "development kit". You are slow to bash BFL but quick to bash everyone else. The companies which did not directly offer you hardware, you continually bash.

(Paid) Shill or Troll, take you guess.

Sigh - yet again a post of lies - to pretend they are some oracle who knows all but yet cannot provide proof of the lies they post ...

Yes, short memories we all pretend to have in sight of the obvious...let just say it is "off topic".

Yes please correct your memory.